Questions for Muslims

[ContraMundum]

...are you sick of terrorism in the name of Islam yet? I mean, it's an onslaught lately of one bloody crime after another done in the name of your religion. It just keeps coming. Now we have Boko Haram declaring war on Christians and kidnapping schoolgirls to sell them as slaves, not to mention attacks on defenseless towns.

What can be done?

It seems to me that if there is no central authority (as Muslims here have said) then it is susceptible to charismatic teachers (eg. Abubakar Shekau) who seem to have a lot to say from their Quran about what they think is Allah's war on everyone else.

Is there a systematic problem in Islamic polity that makes it easy to kill, slay, kidnap and so forth in with justification from the Quran? Why does it seem so hard for peace-loving Muslims (so often the victims) to curb the trend?

Any answers or opinions from Muslims about this, or perhaps a description of what is happening in Islamic circles to combat it?

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

The first paragraph here is particularly relevant to this issue:

Jesus in India

I'll quote a part of it here:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"... misconceptions, the dangerous implications of which have not only injured and destroyed the conception of Divine Unity, but the unwholesome and poisonous influence of which has for long been noticed in the morals of the Muslims of this country. Spiritual maladies, i.e., want of good morals, evil thoughts, callousness, want of sympathy, are spreading among most Islamic sects, being the result of beliefs in unfounded stories and anecdotes of this kind. Human sympathy, pity and love of justice, humility and humble-mindedness - all good qualities - are disappearing day by day, as if they will soon bid a last farewell to this community. This callousness and this immorality make many a Muslim appear no better than the beasts of the jungle. A Jain or a Buddhist is afraid of and avoids killing even a mosquito or a flea, but, alas! there are many among us Muslims who, while they kill an innocent man or commit wanton murder, are not afraid of the powerful God, who rates human life higher than that of all the animals. What is this callousness and cruelty and want of sympathy due to? It is due to this - that from their very childhood, stories and anecdotes and wrong views of the doctrine of Jihad are dinned into their ears and inculcated into their hearts, the result being that gradually they become morally dead and cease to feel the heinousness of their hateful actions; nay, rather, the man who murders another man unawares and thus brings ruin to the murdered man's family thinks that he has done a meritorious deed; or rather, that he has made the most of an opportunity to win favour with his community. As no lectures or sermons are delivered in our country to stop such evils - and if there are any such lectures they have an element of hypocrisy in them - the common people think approvingly of such misdeeds...."
[/FONT]
What can be done? Bring the culprits to justice as soon as possible. And keep an eye on the religious leaders who implant these wicked notions in the minds of people. They are responsible for it.

Peace.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hi,

The first paragraph here is particularly relevant to this issue:

Jesus in India

I'll quote a part of it here:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"... misconceptions, the dangerous implications of which have not only injured and destroyed the conception of Divine Unity, but the unwholesome and poisonous influence of which has for long been noticed in the morals of the Muslims of this country. Spiritual maladies, i.e., want of good morals, evil thoughts, callousness, want of sympathy, are spreading among most Islamic sects, being the result of beliefs in unfounded stories and anecdotes of this kind. Human sympathy, pity and love of justice, humility and humble-mindedness - all good qualities - are disappearing day by day, as if they will soon bid a last farewell to this community. This callousness and this immorality make many a Muslim appear no better than the beasts of the jungle. A Jain or a Buddhist is afraid of and avoids killing even a mosquito or a flea, but, alas! there are many among us Muslims who, while they kill an innocent man or commit wanton murder, are not afraid of the powerful God, who rates human life higher than that of all the animals. What is this callousness and cruelty and want of sympathy due to? It is due to this - that from their very childhood, stories and anecdotes and wrong views of the doctrine of Jihad are dinned into their ears and inculcated into their hearts, the result being that gradually they become morally dead and cease to feel the heinousness of their hateful actions; nay, rather, the man who murders another man unawares and thus brings ruin to the murdered man's family thinks that he has done a meritorious deed; or rather, that he has made the most of an opportunity to win favour with his community. As no lectures or sermons are delivered in our country to stop such evils - and if there are any such lectures they have an element of hypocrisy in them - the common people think approvingly of such misdeeds...."
[/FONT]
What can be done? Bring the culprits to justice as soon as possible. And keep an eye on the religious leaders who implant these wicked notions in the minds of people. They are responsible for it.

Peace.

Thanks. Interesting perspective from that article.

 

[WoodrowX2]

One problem is there is a wide spread belief that if a Muslim does a horrendous act it is because of his religion.

That is as erroneous as saying that if a Christian commits a crime it is because of Christianity.

The first thing that needs to be done is to remove that misconception from all people. That is going to take an effort on the part of people who actually believe Islam encourages or teaches violence.

The majority of us are Peace loving and abide by the laws of the Nation we live in.

Since the non-Muslim world seems to be the experts on how Islam teaches violence and terrorism. Perhaps someone could point to a specific Madrassa that is known to produce Terrorists?

The accusations are usually vague and filled with comments like "Islam Teaches" "They Say" "They are Taught" "Islam is Violent" etc. Yet, we never hear "where they were taught", "Who was their teacher" etc

There are many accusation thrown at us, yet never any specific problem identified. Always vague comments like "The Qur'an teaches violence" and than take a line out of context and offer it as "proof". When pointed out they are reading it out of context the answer becomes "A terrorist COULD think it is a command."

The problem is the media and ill-informed people need to stop spreading misinformation and accusations that "Islam teaches terrorism."

Terrorists are not acting because they are Muslim, they are acting because they are terrorists.

Once that message is understood it might be possible for the world to finally comprehend The vast majority of Muslims, like all people, are not Terrorists.

 

[cloudyday2]

Perhaps someone could point to a specific Madrassa that is known to produce Terrorists?

A good friend of mine from a job 20 years ago went to a religious school in Pakistan where everyone learned to use assault rifles and so forth. Of course, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. (Sorry that is only anecdotal, but I believe most people accept that religious schools were doing more than teaching religion in Pakistan.)

But I don't know if there is anything uniquely violent in Islam. People riot at sporting events all the time.

 

[Zoness]

I suspect the problems are not only religious but also cultural and economic. Islam is pretty decentralized and so there appears to be radical differences in belief across cultural and economic fault lines. In many Islamic countries you have ancient tribal ways colliding with very modern ideas of openness, democracy and nation-states which are simply foreign to many people who are going to cling to their ethnic and cultural (including religious) identity. I think that some of these people might be more susceptible to extremist teaching not only because they want to preserve their way of life but because many do not have access to resources and materials that say that there are other ways in Islam. It's a very fragmented world.

But I'm no sociologist so that's all just speculation. It seems plausible, though.

 

[WoodrowX2]

A good friend of mine from a job 20 years ago went to a religious school in Pakistan where everyone learned to use assault rifles and so forth. Of course, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. (Sorry that is only anecdotal, but I believe most people accept that religious schools were doing more than teaching religion in Pakistan.)

Looking at the events of 20 years ago I believe that. As to if this was part of any legitimate religious training I doubt that.

But I don't know if there is anything uniquely violent in Islam. People riot at sporting events all the time.

20 years ago the USA was financing the training of young kids in Pakistan and Afghanistan to fight Russians.

Often the "schools" were called Madrassa (religious School) and the Children were called Taliban(students) this looked like a free education for Pakistan families that could not afford to sent their children to School.

 

[WoodrowX2]

I suspect the problems are not only religious but also cultural and economic. Islam is pretty decentralized and so there appears to be radical differences in belief across cultural and economic fault lines. In many Islamic countries you have ancient tribal ways colliding with very modern ideas of openness, democracy and nation-states which are simply foreign to many people who are going to cling to their ethnic and cultural (including religious) identity. I think that some of these people might be more susceptible to extremist teaching not only because they want to preserve their way of life but because many do not have access to resources and materials that say that there are other ways in Islam. It's a very fragmented world.

But I'm no sociologist so that's all just speculation. It seems plausible, though.

That is true. You made some excellent points and observations.

What I have found is that many "Islamic" Terrorists have very little concept of Islam. Some actually believe a suicide bomber will get 72 virgins Another bit of nonsense some are fed is that if they carry a piece of paper with the names of loved ones written on it, those named will also be assured of Heaven.

This poor kids are taught utter nonsense and are led to believe they are following Islam. Evil leaders use very evil means.

Some things being done to offset this is in Pakistan and India the Islamic schools are becoming more accessible to Children in the poverty ridden areas.

One example

Welcome To IIGS Quest For Knowledge International Islamic Grammar School was founded in Islamabad in 1998 with a vision to provide state of the art education to the new generation along with inculcating in them the moral and ethical values. A decade later we are on our way to making that vision a reality with a mission to provide the community in Pakistan with values oriented modern education in addition to the curriculum outlined by the Cambridge and Oxford; offering learning opportunities and creative ideas; and combining them with teachings which help in character building and personality development.

SOURCE

 

[andy b]

the problem is most of the accusations we point at Muslims could just as easily pointed at the so called Christian west.If the entire world was either Muslim or Christian its safe to assume we would still be slaughtering each other for a different reason.The worlds full of bad people im not sure there beliefs have that much to do with it.

 

[cloudyday2]

20 years ago the USA was financing the training of young kids in Pakistan and Afghanistan to fight Russians.

Often the "schools" were called Madrassa (religious School) and the Children were called Taliban(students) this looked like a free education for Pakistan families that could not afford to sent their children to School.

Here is a link and a couple of quotes from an article showing that the religious schools in Pakistan are still radicalizing students.

The small, untidy entrance on the street to one of those madrasas, the Jamiya Islamiya, conceals the size of the establishment. Inside, a brick-and-concrete building three stories high surrounds a courtyard, and classrooms can accommodate 280 students. At least three of the suicide bombers we were tracing had been students here, and there were reports of more. Senior figures from Pakistani religious parties and provincial-government officials were frequent visitors, and Taliban members would often visit under the cover of darkness in fleets of S.U.V.s.

The deputy head of the madrasa denied that there was any militant training there or any forced recruitment for jihad. “We are educating the students in the Quran, and in the Quran it is written that it is every Muslim’s obligation to wage jihad,” he said. “All we are telling them is what is in the Quran. Then it is up to them to go to jihad.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/magazine/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden.html?_r=0

 

[cloudyday2]

I just wanted to add, that I have no opinion on the question of Islam's responsibility for terrorists, etc. I've read about Buddhist monks causing violence in some countries. Non-religious people cause violence too.

 

[Zoness]

That is true. You made some excellent points and observations.

What I have found is that many "Islamic" Terrorists have very little concept of Islam. Some actually believe a suicide bomber will get 72 virgins Another bit of nonsense some are fed is that if they carry a piece of paper with the names of loved ones written on it, those named will also be assured of Heaven.

This poor kids are taught utter nonsense and are led to believe they are following Islam. Evil leaders use very evil means.

Some things being done to offset this is in Pakistan and India the Islamic schools are becoming more accessible to Children in the poverty ridden areas.

One example

SOURCE

I'm glad things are turning around but I won't 'mark that ticket closed' to use a phrase from my own industry; there's still a lot of schools out there teaching radicalism and they can get away with it due to weak or complacent governments and low education which results in low amounts of "idea networking". People in a rural Afghan village aren't going to sit and say 'well Islam in country X is less intense than this, what gives?' they're going to hear something is truth all day every day and believe it, there is nobody around to prove them wrong.

Extremist groups thrive on this; plus the cassus belli of 'Western Imperialism' is a strong one since the West has wronged the Arab world many times. It all makes for a powerful combination that I don't see subsiding very much this century.

the problem is most of the accusations we point at Muslims could just as easily pointed at the so called Christian west.If the entire world was either Muslim or Christian its safe to assume we would still be slaughtering each other for a different reason.The worlds full of bad people im not sure there beliefs have that much to do with it.

Generally speaking, the religion is not at fault. When you have ideologies with a billion or more followers you're going to get a number of dangerous people, and that number will be high by raw numbers alone. Of course, Islam seems to augment the mostly cultural problems, but we aren't yet sure that any other religion wouldn't do the same. There are some seriously violent and dangerous Christian African villages, for example. Plus lets not forget some of the awful things we hear of in obscure places in India that are majority Hindu.

I think that we need to be critical of Islam to self-police its extremism but there are a lot of factors going into stopping such extremism and Islam is not the only religion that has this extremist risk; its just the most frequent and most prominent at this point in history.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Here is a link and a couple of quotes from an article showing that the religious schools in Pakistan are still radicalizing students.



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/magazine/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden.html?_r=0

Read down a few more paragraphs.

The Pakistani government, under President Pervez Musharraf and his intelligence chief, Lt. Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, was maintaining and protecting the Taliban, both to control the many groups of militants now lodged in the country and to use them as a proxy force to gain leverage over and eventually dominate Afghanistan. The dynamic has played out in ways that can be hard to grasp from the outside, but the strategy that has evolved in Pakistan has been to make a show of cooperation with the American fight against terrorism while covertly abetting and even coordinating Taliban, Kashmiri and foreign Qaeda-linked militants. The linchpin in this two-pronged and at times apparently oppositional strategy is the ISI. It’s through that agency that Pakistan’s true relationship to militant extremism can be discerned — a fact that the United States was slow to appreciate, and later refused to face directly, for fear of setting off a greater confrontation with a powerful Muslim nation.

Sounds more like a Corrupt government misusing religion. Not as a teaching of Islam

These Madrassas are not much different from what I posted earlier.

What I have found is that many "Islamic" Terrorists have very little concept of Islam. Some actually believe a suicide bomber will get 72 virgins Another bit of nonsense some are fed is that if they carry a piece of paper with the names of loved ones written on it, those named will also be assured of Heaven.

This poor kids are taught utter nonsense and are led to believe they are following Islam. Evil leaders use very evil means.

Hopefully the IIGS will bring Islam back to the Madrassas.

 

[cloudyday2]

Read down a few more paragraphs.
Sounds more like a Corrupt government misusing religion. Not as a teaching of Islam

At the end of the article it describes the shoot-out at the Red Mosque and the apparent complicity of the ISI in the attempted Islamist revolt in Pakistan. It's not clear to me if the ISI allowed this to happen to placate the Islamists within their own ranks or if they seriously hoped to overthrow the government. I suspect if they had intended to overthrow the government then it would have succeeded. So this shows that there are many Islamists in the ISI even though they are well educated, well paid, and well informed. It's not just poor children being manipulated by corrupt governments.

Even if most of the Islamic violence is inspired and controlled by corrupt governments as opposed to reflecting the radicalism of the people, maybe there is something about Islam that makes it a more effective tool for control than other major religions? Or maybe not - but this seems like the key question IMO.

 

[wn123455]

I just wanted to add, that I have no opinion on the question of Islam's responsibility for terrorists, etc. I've read about Buddhist monks causing violence in some countries. Non-religious people cause violence too.

Muslims Massacre Buddhists In Myanmar > New English Review

 

[WoodrowX2]

Even if most of the Islamic violence is inspired and controlled by corrupt governments as opposed to reflecting the radicalism of the people, maybe there is something about Islam that makes it a more effective tool for control than other major religions? Or maybe not - but this seems like the key question IMO.

Just addressing your last paragraph.

I think it is difficult for a non-Muslim to understand the organizational structure of Islam.

There is none.

Every Mosque is very autonomous with no external control from any "authority".

Most Mosques are simply a group of neighbors gathering together in a designated location for the obligatory prayers. Typically the oldest person present will take the Role of Imam.

If the same people meet regularly they might pool their resources and build an actual Building to serve as a Mosque or one of the wealthier people in the community will build one. At which point the builder might simply take on the rple of Imam or the local community might select a volunteer. Nobody trains and appoints a person as an Imam.

Now I will admit this does open the possibility for a wealthy person or group to start a Mosque for the purpose of controlling the local populace. However, with Islam placing emphasis on self-responsibility I do not see this as being effective in the long run. Few people could afford the expense of control, with no income coming from those controlled. We don't tithe and typically are cheapskates in regards to giving financial support to a Mosque and the Imam.

To control a Muslim population through religion would require preventing them from learning about Islam. In other words keep the populace uneducated and illiterate. Unproductive and a liability and drain on the National economy. Attempts to control a Muslim population is a pattern for failure, chaos and anarchy.

Which I think is what we are seeing in failed dictatorships that could not afford the upkeep of maintaining a non-productive population. The oil rich Nations that do not depend on human productivity are about the only Nations that can afford this type of control.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think it is difficult for a non-Muslim to understand the organizational structure of Islam.

There is none.

Is that the problem, then? Without an organizational structure, are portions inbuilt into the religion open to a terrorist intepretation? Seems like terrorists quote the Quran an awful lot.

What thinketh ye?

 

[WoodrowX2]

Is that the problem, then? Without an organizational structure, are portions inbuilt into the religion open to a terrorist intepretation? Seems like terrorists quote the Quran an awful lot.

What thinketh ye?

Which makes me wonder if they have ever read the Qu'an. Or even prayed any of the 5 obligatory prayers in a Mosque. It they had done either to any degree they would know you do not read single lines.

The basic and often the only teacher is the individuals mother. One early thing a Muslim discovers is Self responsibility and the need to take full responsibility for what one believes and how to begin the life long journey of submitting to Allaah(swt)

A characteristics of many terrorists is they often are from from the same part of the world. I also notice that Islam is not growing as the result of terrorism, but seems to be loosing people as a result of it.

The most common targets of the terrorists are Muslims and in the cases when it isn't, it brings down unbelievable retaliation against innocent Muslims world wide.

I have difficulty in thinking the Terrorists are practicing Muslims as the ultimate looser of every terrorist attack has been Muslims. If not by the attack, by the retaliation that has been certain to follow.

They sort of remind of the story of 2 politicians in a small down:

Both were very similar in views and abilities. But the Republican consistently beat the Democrat by a landslide in every election.

Since they were friends one day when they had lunch together the Democrat asked "What is your secret for consistently beating me?"

The Rebublican asked 'First tell me you ampaign strategies."

The Democrat answered i travel around on my best behavior, making friends , saying good words to everyone, leaving big tips in the cafe and leaving cards that say "Vote Democrat"

The Republican said my strategy has been a little different. I try to be as obnoxious as possible, cause as much trouble I can, complain about service never leave a tip and leave cards that say "I'm a Democrat"

The Terrorists are not Muslims they are enemies of Islam causing lies to be believed about Islam. They use the name Muslim in their attempts to destroy Islam.

I know Terrorists do their best to make it known they are Muslims. But I have difficulty in believing they are Muslims.

 

[ContraMundum]

Which makes me wonder if they have ever read the Qu'an. Or even prayed any of the 5 obligatory prayers in a Mosque. It they had done either to any degree they would know you do not read single lines.

The basic and often the only teacher is the individuals mother. One early thing a Muslim discovers is Self responsibility and the need to take full responsibility for what one believes and how to begin the life long journey of submitting to Allaah(swt)

A characteristics of many terrorists is they often are from from the same part of the world. I also notice that Islam is not growing as the result of terrorism, but seems to be loosing people as a result of it.

The most common targets of the terrorists are Muslims and in the cases when it isn't, it brings down unbelievable retaliation against innocent Muslims world wide.

I have difficulty in thinking the Terrorists are practicing Muslims as the ultimate looser of every terrorist attack has been Muslims. If not by the attack, by the retaliation that has been certain to follow.

They sort of remind of the story of 2 politicians in a small down:

Both were very similar in views and abilities. But the Republican consistently beat the Democrat by a landslide in every election.

Since they were friends one day when they had lunch together the Democrat asked "What is your secret for consistently beating me?"

The Rebublican asked 'First tell me you ampaign strategies."

The Democrat answered i travel around on my best behavior, making friends , saying good words to everyone, leaving big tips in the cafe and leaving cards that say "Vote Democrat"

The Republican said my strategy has been a little different. I try to be as obnoxious as possible, cause as much trouble I can, complain about service never leave a tip and leave cards that say "I'm a Democrat"

The Terrorists are not Muslims they are enemies of Islam causing lies to be believed about Islam. They use the name Muslim in their attempts to destroy Islam.

I know Terrorists do their best to make it known they are Muslims. But I have difficulty in believing they are Muslims.

Good words. I honestly think they are plain-old uneducated or at least ill-educated in their life, religion and even politically. Their logic is bizzare, their emotional maturity adolescent and their world-view strangely cloistered.

How do you think Muslims can respond effectively?

Also, it's been posited here before, but does Islam need a Reformation movement?

 

[cloudyday2]

Just addressing your last paragraph.

I think it is difficult for a non-Muslim to understand the organizational structure of Islam.

There is none.

Every Mosque is very autonomous with no external control from any "authority".

Most Mosques are simply a group of neighbors gathering together in a designated location for the obligatory prayers. Typically the oldest person present will take the Role of Imam.

If the same people meet regularly they might pool their resources and build an actual Building to serve as a Mosque or one of the wealthier people in the community will build one. At which point the builder might simply take on the rple of Imam or the local community might select a volunteer. Nobody trains and appoints a person as an Imam.

Maybe your description is correct in theory, but in practice there appear to be definite branches of Islam, religious degrees, leaders, laws, etc. Furthermore Islam often exists in nations with Islamic governments. The mosques can be nominally independent because the Islamic government provides the religious hierarchy.

Take a non-denominational congregational Christian church. Theoretically such a church is just a group of individuals gathering for fellowship, but in practice that church is part of an informal denomination with informal leadership - famous theologians, evangelists, etc.

IMO the lack of formal standards and government can facilitate gross misconduct by the local priests/imams/pastors. But I think Islam actually does have formal standards and government in practice. Part of this may be due to the Quran. I haven't read the Quran, but it seems to present the beliefs of Islam unambiguously so that individual interpretations should be fairly consistent. By comparison Christian beliefs come from the parables of Jesus and some church correspondence, and the interpretations can vary more.