Questions for Christians

Tokono

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Hello Everyone,

Before I begin, let me say that I do accept the notion of God, and have been raised to believe in Jesus. However, there are a lot of things I do not understand or necessarily want to accept (though I don't have much of a choice if I want to be saved). I imagine that I will have lot to talk about during judgement day, if I get the chance!

P.S. I don't know if this is the right place for this topic - sorry if it's not.
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I. For the most part the Christian faith, encourages others to take part in worship and fellowship in light of the father - and by enlarge, seek forgiveness for your sins. Those that choose not to, well the bible is very clear when suggesting eternal damnation in a lake of fire. So called gnashing of the teeth, and torment beyond comprehension for all eternity (humans cannot comprehend eternity). This part in particular, though likely exacerbated by my Catholic upbringing did not sit well with me. Namely, what wrong doing is worthy of an eternity of suffering? Does the crime fit the punishment? Essentially, God is saying if you do not follow his way, which is your choice, you will suffer punishment beyond recompense. How is this different from a tyrant? Also there are a number of different religions worshiping a variety of deities, and these people by enlarge live subjectively "good" lives. However, because they may not accept the word of Christ they are doomed to eternal punishment?

II. Conversely, what action warrants eternal bliss? Does anyone deserve such a thing, no matter how good of a life you live?

III. I know this is a sensitive topic for many, and the good book is very clear on the matter (depending one's interpretation) that homosexuality is a sin. However, there are many sins the book speaks of, yet this one in particular beckons a lot of bigoted comments and animosity among members of the Christian faith. Whether or not it's sin, we are not here to judge others or damn them for it. It is their sin (if we are accepting it as sin) and it's there choice whether to abstain or participate in the practice. If there are consequences on the day of judgement, then it is theirs' to bare. Same as lying, wearing mixed fabric (old testament?), stealing, etc. On the point of marriage, which is more of a legal issue than a church issue - why waste energy in caring? Heretics will exist in all ages, but we're not targeting them (oh, there were the crusaders, yeah that was a thing). My point is, no one has a right to judge, yet Christians by enlarge seem to make a big deal of the matter.

IV. Christians refer to the bible for a lot of their scriptures, and practices. However, the bible is a heavily edited copy of scripture passed down by prophets. It doesn't even contain all of the scriptures as the book has a few that were taken out of it's contents. (Book of Esdras, Tobit, Judith, just to name a few.) Sure while we may accept that these prophets received their teachings and writings from God, are we going to attribute the same to the subjective action taken by the Vatican in 1684 when removing these other books?
 

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The true gospel of Christ is that in the light of what Jesus did for us on the Cross, a person needs to turn to Christ and have Him as Lord and Saviour, not just having a "belief" in Him. Demons believe in Christ and they tremble, but they don't have Him as their Lord and Saviour. Along with that the person must repent of all willful sin, and the basic prayer would be Psalm 51. As well, there is the absolute determination to live a holy life before God.

In my view, most "free thinkers", agnostics and atheists, reject God because they don't want to give up their self chosen life-style. If we look carefully at the person lives of these people what will be revealed is that they don't want to give up their free sex, adultery, dishonouring of parents, riotous living, selfishness, greed, occult practices, New Age practices, and all the other things that are in disharmony in the observance of the Ten Commandments. They don't want to have a God in their lives who will require a set of standards. They want to set their own standards for living. They won't want to admit that, and will try to tear my views down, but I know that what I am saying is the truth.
 
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Tokono

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The true gospel of Christ is that in the light of what Jesus did for us on the Cross, a person needs to turn to Christ and have Him as Lord and Saviour, not just having a "belief" in Him. Demons believe in Christ and they tremble, but they don't have Him as their Lord and Saviour. Along with that the person must repent of all willful sin, and the basic prayer would be Psalm 51. As well, there is the absolute determination to live a holy life before God.

In my view, most "free thinkers", agnostics and atheists, reject God because they don't want to give up their self chosen life-style. If we look carefully at the person lives of these people what will be revealed is that they don't want to give up their free sex, adultery, dishonouring of parents, riotous living, selfishness, greed, occult practices, New Age practices, and all the other things that are in disharmony in the observance of the Ten Commandments. They don't want to have a God in their lives who will require a set of standards. They want to set their own standards for living. They won't want to admit that, and will try to tear my views down, but I know that what I am saying is the truth.

Though your post was not directly relating to my questions, I will say that we do not know the true gospel of Christ. Rather what we know, is filtered passages condensed into a lovely narrative known as the Bible - filtered and controlled by none other than the Vatican. Now I am not saying that this in it and of itself does not have merit, however, I've read most of all the books both within the accepted Bible and those that were rejected and they raise a lot of questions.

I agree with you that we should repent for our sins, both willful and unintentional, and we should strive to lead "good lives" (or in your terms) "holy lives".

In regards to your views on free thinkers, agnostics, and atheist - I can understand how one would come to that viewpoint. However, I do think it is possible to believe in God and accept Jesus while simultaneous doubting the words/actions of men. The bible tells us of a false prophet, and this in essence warrants the questioning of so many who proclaim to know the way of the Gospel and their filtered/controlled text. Humans are greedy by nature, and follow a cause and effect relationship usually within one's own interest. Tell me, would the Bible carry as much weight if there were no notions of eternal damnation? Do you follow the father of your own freewill or simply because you want to be "saved". I value the father, and his son's sacrifice and the gift that he has given us all. However, that does not mean I need to agree with everything that was written over 1,500 years ago by fallible men whether influenced by God or not.
 
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Tolworth John

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Does the crime fit the punishment?
You are saying that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Turn it around and assume that the punishment does fit the crime. Where then is your objection.
what action warrants eternal bliss?
Hell is deserved for rejecting God, so heaven is awarded for accepting God.
no one has a right to judge
Can you demonstrate that you make no judgements in your life? The biblical command is to judge rightly or justly and to expect to be judged with the same standards one has used.
the bible is a heavily edited copy of scripture passed down by prophets

Sp[end some time researching how we got the bible?
It will show just what nonsence this statement is.

There are literally thousands ofpieces of the T as well as a large number of complete books and whole or partial editions of the NT. Then there are the frquent quotes in letters from the church Fathers.

Schollars have so many bits of the NT that they can identify which family of documents the part they are studing comes from.
If you want a quick study of the 'so called' errors look at a good tanslation and study the foot notes. There they will show you alturnative readings and questionable passages. There is about one per page.

Last surgesttion go to coldcasechristianity and read what is said there about the accuracy and reliabilityof the NT. A judgement made by an experienced coldcase detective.
 
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Tokono

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You are saying that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Turn it around and assume that the punishment does fit the crime. Where then is your objection.

Hell is deserved for rejecting God, so heaven is awarded for accepting God.

Can you demonstrate that you make no judgements in your life? The biblical command is to judge rightly or justly and to expect to be judged with the same standards one has used.


Sp[end some time researching how we got the bible?
It will show just what nonsence this statement is.

There are literally thousands ofpieces of the T as well as a large number of complete books and whole or partial editions of the NT. Then there are the frquent quotes in letters from the church Fathers.

Schollars have so many bits of the NT that they can identify which family of documents the part they are studing comes from.
If you want a quick study of the 'so called' errors look at a good tanslation and study the foot notes. There they will show you alturnative readings and questionable passages. There is about one per page.

Last surgesttion go to coldcasechristianity and read what is said there about the accuracy and reliabilityof the NT. A judgement made by an experienced coldcase detective.

On your first point, if you are asking me to play devil's advocate on whether the punishment is befitting of the crime - I cannot. That's like telling me to feel that all liars must die - except in this case you can't compare because death is not eternal punishment. That is something on an entirely different spectrum.

On your second point, that was not my question. I understand why it's given (or earned I should say) - however, I do not think anyone deserves eternal bliss or damnation. At least not by their actions here on this earth. They are extreme polar opposites, and quite frankly there isn't enough "good" or "evil" in this world to warrant either.

On your third point, you are putting words in my mouth. I stated no one has a right to judge whether I do or not is irrelevant. As for the bible calling us to judge the wicked, yes but at the same time there is an entire passage in Matthews 7:1-5 telling us not to judge in a hypocritical fashion. A sinner cannot judge a sinner - plain and simple.

On your fourth point, you are again assuming something completely off base. I am stating that there are books in the bible that are not complete and are not available in the everyday text we know as the bible. If they were, it would bring a lot of doubt on the way Christianity is viewed today. For example the non-canonical text - Book of Enoch? It is these works that I am referring to. Or lets say the speculation surrounding whether Jesus had a wife. There is a lot of information, and misinformation out there who knows which is true or which is false!?
 
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Though your post was not directly relating to my questions, I will say that we do not know the true gospel of Christ. Rather what we know, is filtered passages condensed into a lovely narrative known as the Bible - filtered and controlled by none other than the Vatican. Now I am not saying that this in it and of itself does not have merit, however, I've read most of all the books both within the accepted Bible and those that were rejected and they raise a lot of questions.

I agree with you that we should repent for our sins, both willful and unintentional, and we should strive to lead "good lives" (or in your terms) "holy lives".

In regards to your views on free thinkers, agnostics, and atheist - I can understand how one would come to that viewpoint. However, I do think it is possible to believe in God and accept Jesus while simultaneous doubting the words/actions of men. The bible tells us of a false prophet, and this in essence warrants the questioning of so many who proclaim to know the way of the Gospel and their filtered/controlled text. Humans are greedy by nature, and follow a cause and effect relationship usually within one's own interest. Tell me, would the Bible carry as much weight if there were no notions of eternal damnation? Do you follow the father of your own freewill or simply because you want to be "saved". I value the father, and his son's sacrifice and the gift that he has given us all. However, that does not mean I need to agree with everything that was written over 1,500 years ago by fallible men whether influenced by God or not.
There are things in the Bible that are written for us, in the sense that they are there for our education about how the nation of Israel started and what they went through to get established in Canaan, how God dealt with them, the warnings when they went into idolatory and their final demise as a nation. Then the restoration of Israel after the Assyrian captivity and the rebuilding of the city walls and Temple. All these things were not written directly to us. We are to learn the ways of God in how He dealt with His chosen people and how He can relate to us if we are faithful to Him, but how we will end up in a disaster if we walk away from him, worship other gods and live lawless lives. Even when Jesus was in earth, He taught and worked with the Jews. Most of what He said was for them directly, but also for our education to learn what God was like in human form, to get a clear view of His nature and character in Jesus. Jesus presented the high standards of God to the Jews, and then they rejected Him and nailed Him to a cross; but then He rose from the dead to show that He could give whoever believed on Him eternal life. Then we come to the book of Acts which shows how the Christian church was born and how the Roman Empire was turned to Christianity. We only get the first 80 or so years in that book. We don't hear of the destruction of Jerusalem in Acts. We hear of it through Josephus, the Jewish historian, but we are forewarned of a coming disaster by Jesus.

Then we have the account of the conversion of Paul and the letters he wrote to the churches. Most of what he wrote was to us, for our direct instruction in how we should live the Christian life. He shows us in Galatians the type of lifestyle of those who will never inherit the kingdom of heaven, and then he shows the fruits in the lives of those who do.

The New Testament is our only guide to knowing how to live the Christian life and what we must do to ensure that we will inherit the kingdom of God. The teaching is quite clear. Turn to Jesus and make His our Lord as well as our Saviour; repent of all known willful sin, and live a totally holy life before God. We see God's standards of holiness right throughout the Bible, and the consequences of willfully allow just one sinful habit pattern to remain in our lives. All Ananias and Saphira did was to say that they contributed all of the money from the sale of their land, when it wasn't true, and they fell down dead in the presence of God. Another guy who tried to stop an official hearing the gospel from Paul was struck blind. Being in the presence of God is not a lovey dovey experience. For the person who has sinful habit patterns in his life, it is a frightening, scary experience. Jesus said that it is better to fall on God and be broken for sin, than to have God fall on them and crush them to nothing.
 
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Tolworth John

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On your first point, if you are asking me to play devil's advocate on whether the punishment is befitting of the crime - I cannot. That's like telling me to feel that all liars must die - except in this case you can't compare because death is not eternal punishment. That is something on an entirely different spectrum.

On your second point, that was not my question. I understand why it's given (or earned I should say) - however, I do not think anyone deserves eternal bliss or damnation. At least not by their actions here on this earth. They are extreme polar opposites, and quite frankly there isn't enough "good" or "evil" in this world to warrant either.

On your third point, you are putting words in my mouth. I stated no one has a right to judge whether I do or not is irrelevant. As for the bible calling us to judge the wicked, yes but at the same time there is an entire passage in Matthews 7:1-5 telling us not to judge in a hypocritical fashion. A sinner cannot judge a sinner - plain and simple.

On your fourth point, you are again assuming something completely off base. I am stating that there are books in the bible that are not complete and are not available in the everyday text we know as the bible. If they were, it would bring a lot of doubt on the way Christianity is viewed today. For example the non-canonical text - Book of Enoch? It is these works that I am referring to. Or lets say the speculation surrounding whether Jesus had a wife. There is a lot of information, and misinformation out there who knows which is true or which is false!?

You challenge Gods judgement but are unwilling to assume that God knows what he is doing.

I think you should get that straight, is God Dod and does or does he not have ultimate authority.

Judgement, is something we do all the time both whether it is safe to cross the road or that driver is a bad driver.
The bible and its books.
Who do you trust to make a judgement about it.
The church father wrote about the books they accepted and the books you have mentioned are not among those they recognised as having the authority or authentisity to be in the bible.
 
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Tokono

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There are things in the Bible that are written for us, in the sense that they are there for our education about how the nation of Israel started and what they went through to get established in Canaan, how God dealt with them, the warnings when they went into idolatory and their final demise as a nation. Then the restoration of Israel after the Assyrian captivity and the rebuilding of the city walls and Temple. All these things were not written directly to us. We are to learn the ways of God in how He dealt with His chosen people and how He can relate to us if we are faithful to Him, but how we will end up in a disaster if we walk away from him, worship other gods and live lawless lives. Even when Jesus was in earth, He taught and worked with the Jews. Most of what He said was for them directly, but also for our education to learn what God was like in human form, to get a clear view of His nature and character in Jesus. Jesus presented the high standards of God to the Jews, and then they rejected Him and nailed Him to a cross; but then He rose from the dead to show that He could give whoever believed on Him eternal life. Then we come to the book of Acts which shows how the Christian church was born and how the Roman Empire was turned to Christianity. We only get the first 80 or so years in that book. We don't hear of the destruction of Jerusalem in Acts. We hear of it through Josephus, the Jewish historian, but we are forewarned of a coming disaster by Jesus.

Then we have the account of the conversion of Paul and the letters he wrote to the churches. Most of what he wrote was to us, for our direct instruction in how we should live the Christian life. He shows us in Galatians the type of lifestyle of those who will never inherit the kingdom of heaven, and then he shows the fruits in the lives of those who do.

The New Testament is our only guide to knowing how to live the Christian life and what we must do to ensure that we will inherit the kingdom of God. The teaching is quite clear. Turn to Jesus and make His our Lord as well as our Saviour; repent of all known willful sin, and live a totally holy life before God. We see God's standards of holiness right throughout the Bible, and the consequences of willfully allow just one sinful habit pattern to remain in our lives. All Ananias and Saphira did was to say that they contributed all of the money from the sale of their land, when it wasn't true, and they fell down dead in the presence of God. Another guy who tried to stop an official hearing the gospel from Paul was struck blind. Being in the presence of God is not a lovey dovey experience. For the person who has sinful habit patterns in his life, it is a frightening, scary experience. Jesus said that it is better to fall on God and be broken for sin, than to have God fall on them and crush them to nothing.

That was a very enlightening read, and I agree with you. Following the bible as a framework for leading a "good" life is indeed something I support. This is morally favorable by most universal standards.

But one point I wanted to bring up from your statements was - "Jesus said that it is better to fall on God and be broken for sin, than to have God fall on them and crush them into nothing." This doesn't really make him any different than a tyrant. He is essentially stating follow me or be cast into the lake of fire, and I don't agree with this. A person who is of good moral standing, under a different faith or even an atheist should not have to suffer for all eternity because they chose to a different path. I choose not to believe God punishes humans who are imperfect by nature to an eternity of pain. Sure, there are consequences for every action but there has to be a chance for redemption especially once the full weight of the consequences are realized.

Now if you take away eternity factor, I wouldn't have any qualms with it.
 
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Tokono

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You challenge Gods judgement but are unwilling to assume that God knows what he is doing.

I think you should get that straight, is God Dod and does or does he not have ultimate authority.

Judgement, is something we do all the time both whether it is safe to cross the road or that driver is a bad driver.
The bible and its books.
Who do you trust to make a judgement about it.
The church father wrote about the books they accepted and the books you have mentioned are not among those they recognised as having the authority or authentisity to be in the bible.

Just because someone has the authority to do something, does not mean I have to agree with it. My stance on the matter is that no one should be sentenced to a punishment they cannot comprehend. Nor should the fear of such drive so many to hypocritically worship the father.

Okay, let me clarify judging and condemning someone is not the same as using discretion when crossing the street.

All men are fallible by nature, no one is free from sin - and I happen to know quite a bit about behavioral psychology. So no, I don't trust anyone who feels that they have to right to decide what text should and should not be included in the scripture - despite it all being a part of the scripture.
 
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That was a very enlightening read, and I agree with you. Following the bible as a framework for leading a "good" life is indeed something I support. This is morally favorable by most universal standards.

But one point I wanted to bring up from your statements was - "Jesus said that it is better to fall on God and be broken for sin, than to have God fall on them and crush them into nothing." This doesn't really make him any different than a tyrant. He is essentially stating follow me or be cast into the lake of fire, and I don't agree with this. A person who is of good moral standing, under a different faith or even an atheist should not have to suffer for all eternity because they chose to a different path. I choose not to believe God punishes humans who are imperfect by nature to an eternity of pain. Sure, there are consequences for every action but there has to be a chance for redemption especially once the full weight of the consequences are realized.

Now if you take away eternity factor, I wouldn't have any qualms with it.
The principle behind that is that it has to be balanced with the Scripture that says that God is not willing that any perish but that all may come to repentance. God shows His unwillingness for people to perish by putting a plan of salvation into effect. Why there had to be a plan of salvation was that Adam and Eve's disobedience by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is that the tempter said that they could be gods of their own and be able to decide what was good or evil for themselves. So it was more than just simple disobedience, it was an utter rejection of God Himself, so much so that it blighted the whole world and put within Adam and Eve the principle of sin and rebellion against God. That was why they were afraid of God when He appeared in the Garden looking for them. This rebellion against God festered and grew to such an extent that it infected the whole world, and Noah and his family were the only ones true to God, so He sent the Flood to wipe out the people in the world but rescued Noah. The formation of Israel and everything up to the time of Jesus was God's plan to save mankind. Jesus was the only person born of a virgin birth so that He did not have the principle of sin and rebellion in Him. That is why He could die on the cross and receive the full wrath and anger of God for the sin of the whole world. But there is a condition. To take advantage of the plan, one has to believe on Jesus, make Him their Lord, repent of all their sins, and live a holy life. That is the way out.

Anyone who rebels against a lawful government or authority receives punishment. It is to protect and acknowledge the goodness of law-abiding people. If rebellion and crime went unpunished in our societies, we would have total anarchy with millions of innocent people being killed, and raped, such as has happened in some third world countries around the world when one tribe has been allowed to go in a murder thousands of an opposing tribe, such as happened in Riwanda a number of years ago, and in Cambodia during the Pol Pot regime. Would you want those murderers of innocent men, women and children to go unpunished? Of course not.

Then would we then expect those who rebel against God, murder and rape Christians around the world, and throughout Church history, to go unpunished by God? Of course not. People have a choice then, continue in their rebellion against God and suffer the eternal consequences, or take up God's offer of salvation through Christ and be saved. If you went to heaven, would you want to share it with a murderer who killed your family, raped your wife and dashed your children head first on the ground? Would you? The whole point of the Judgment is to separate those who choose to retain their rebellious, sinful life-styles, from those who choose to live a holy life through Christ.

In actual fact, Judgment has already started in our western nations. God's judgment is to give people up to their sins. That is why there is a major increase in murders, rapes, robberies, prostitution, homosexuality, greed, heartlessness, murder of unborn babies, and so on. God is letting those things happen in our societies so that those who practice this filth will have no excuse when God comes to Judge the nations. And it will happen one day. After all, no one is going anywhere, are they?

But God has provided a way out through His Son Jesus Christ. It is "repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". God will give the gift of the Holy Spirit only to those who have repented of their sinful habit patterns and lifestyle and put their full trust in Christ, and have a determination to live a holy life.

God has given every man and woman the choice: Chose life or death. It has to be a free choice. No one forces anyone to commit suicide like the woman who jumped off the Empire State building in the 1960s. She made a free choice to die. She could have made a free choice to go on living and get therapy. But she chose death. It is the same in God. God has shown mankind the way to life, through Christ. People can freely choose eternal life in Christ, or choose eternal separation from God and every good thing that He has created. The Bible is very clear about that. If you don't believe that, you don't believe the Bible.

I am not making any personal judgments of you. I don't know you. But I can hold up God's standards and conditions for receiving eternal life and entry into the kingdom of God. If you decide to accept it, then that is your choice; but if you decide to reject it, then that is your free choice also and you will experience the consequences of the choice you decide to make.
 
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Tolworth John

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Just because someone has the authority to do something, does not mean I have to agree with it.
A nice sentiment that has nothing to do with whether an offical body has the power to detain you.

Try arguing that you don't agree with a speed limit and see how far you get.

judging and condemning someone is not the same as using discretion when crossing the street.
Judgement of behaviour as to whether it complies with God given standards is valid. Often how that judgement is expressed is unwise and uncaring.

I don't trust anyone who feels that they have to right to decide what text should and should not be included in the scripture

The dession as to what books were included had nothing to do with how those who made the desicions felt and every thing to do with facts relating to who wrote it, when it was written and what proof could be offered.
Ever one of the books you mention can be dated to the 2nd centuary. The NT books can be dated to the 1st centuary.
The information about how we got the bible is common knowledge. try coldcasechristianity for information on it.
 
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Norbert L

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Hello Everyone,

Before I begin, let me say that I do accept the notion of God, and have been raised to believe in Jesus. However, there are a lot of things I do not understand or necessarily want to accept (though I don't have much of a choice if I want to be saved). I imagine that I will have lot to talk about during judgement day, if I get the chance!

P.S. I don't know if this is the right place for this topic - sorry if it's not.
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I. For the most part the Christian faith, encourages others to take part in worship and fellowship in light of the father - and by enlarge, seek forgiveness for your sins. Those that choose not to, well the bible is very clear when suggesting eternal damnation in a lake of fire. So called gnashing of the teeth, and torment beyond comprehension for all eternity (humans cannot comprehend eternity). This part in particular, though likely exacerbated by my Catholic upbringing did not sit well with me. Namely, what wrong doing is worthy of an eternity of suffering? Does the crime fit the punishment? Essentially, God is saying if you do not follow his way, which is your choice, you will suffer punishment beyond recompense. How is this different from a tyrant? Also there are a number of different religions worshiping a variety of deities, and these people by enlarge live subjectively "good" lives. However, because they may not accept the word of Christ they are doomed to eternal punishment?

II. Conversely, what action warrants eternal bliss? Does anyone deserve such a thing, no matter how good of a life you live?

III. I know this is a sensitive topic for many, and the good book is very clear on the matter (depending one's interpretation) that homosexuality is a sin. However, there are many sins the book speaks of, yet this one in particular beckons a lot of bigoted comments and animosity among members of the Christian faith. Whether or not it's sin, we are not here to judge others or damn them for it. It is their sin (if we are accepting it as sin) and it's there choice whether to abstain or participate in the practice. If there are consequences on the day of judgement, then it is theirs' to bare. Same as lying, wearing mixed fabric (old testament?), stealing, etc. On the point of marriage, which is more of a legal issue than a church issue - why waste energy in caring? Heretics will exist in all ages, but we're not targeting them (oh, there were the crusaders, yeah that was a thing). My point is, no one has a right to judge, yet Christians by enlarge seem to make a big deal of the matter.

IV. Christians refer to the bible for a lot of their scriptures, and practices. However, the bible is a heavily edited copy of scripture passed down by prophets. It doesn't even contain all of the scriptures as the book has a few that were taken out of it's contents. (Book of Esdras, Tobit, Judith, just to name a few.) Sure while we may accept that these prophets received their teachings and writings from God, are we going to attribute the same to the subjective action taken by the Vatican in 1684 when removing these other books?
For number 1 I believe myself to be responsible for the things I understand to be true and one of them is I don't have the wisdom nor knowledge to judge the entirety of the human race, past, present and future. I do see how such things can be used as an excuse to lose faith in God and charge Him with wrongdoing by rejecting Him and establishing one's own righteousness. Job 40:8

Number 2 the way I see it is about knowing the difference between the responsibilities a Christian will receive in the kingdom of God with the reward of even being there. That the actions we do here and now do have consequences later in the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 3:15.

Number 3 is equally about heterosexuality, it's about coveting and letting your sexual attraction dominate a person's life choices. It's increasingly hard to see since the connections between the pleasure of sex and having children has been divided and separated into two different things in our culture 2 Timothy 3:4.

Number 4 I believe is a result of not being thoroughly familiar with textual criticism by scholars pro and con. Deciding what constitutes inspired scripture and what constitutes historical documents and their accurateness requires first understanding what makes them different from one another.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hello Everyone,

Before I begin, let me say that I do accept the notion of God, and have been raised to believe in Jesus. However, there are a lot of things I do not understand or necessarily want to accept (though I don't have much of a choice if I want to be saved). I imagine that I will have lot to talk about during judgement day, if I get the chance!
Hello, Tokono. I'd like to suggest that you do have a choice as to "how" and "why" you form your understanding about the Christian faith. While I of course would not jettison any general Trinitarian type of Christian belief, there are some issues within the faith that may not be...really...as set in stone as some leaders in the post-Apostolic Church have made them out to be, or these issues may perhaps be better understood by considering additional contexts that some earlier Church leaders didn't consider. So, maybe keep this in mind. It might also not hurt to begin again and take a more existentially prone position to the Christian faith in a way similar to Blaise Pascal.

Does this make sense? If not, tell me what part doesn't make sense, and I'll focus in on that part a bit more. I think it is possible for you to become a bona-fide Christian if, deep inside, you feel that if it is possible, and you'd really like to find faith in Christ and have Eternal Life in God. :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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I. I think it was either C.S. Lewis of Charles Spurgeon who said that on judgement day there will be two groups of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done.” We have the choice to reject God, and in doing so we will get exactly what we want…an eternity apart from Him. (Matthew 22:1-14)

II. See above.

III. Yes, there are some who use scripture as a club instead of a heart, and that’s wrong. Christ taught us to share the truth with grace. Unfortunately, some seem to miss the grace part. Some also seem to miss the point that homosexual behavior is not its own special class of sin. That notwithstanding, we are called to spread the Gospel. If you saw a loved one standing on a rock ledge that was crumbling beneath their feet, would you not say something? Would you not try to call them off the ledge before it was too late? How much more so when the stakes are eternal?

IV. We believe that God created the entire universe and everything in it. Why then would we not believe He is capable of preserving His word?
 
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Tokono

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The principle behind that is that it has to be balanced with the Scripture that says that God is not willing that any perish but that all may come to repentance. God shows His unwillingness for people to perish by putting a plan of salvation into effect. Why there had to be a plan of salvation was that Adam and Eve's disobedience by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is that the tempter said that they could be gods of their own and be able to decide what was good or evil for themselves. So it was more than just simple disobedience, it was an utter rejection of God Himself, so much so that it blighted the whole world and put within Adam and Eve the principle of sin and rebellion against God. That was why they were afraid of God when He appeared in the Garden looking for them. This rebellion against God festered and grew to such an extent that it infected the whole world, and Noah and his family were the only ones true to God, so He sent the Flood to wipe out the people in the world but rescued Noah. The formation of Israel and everything up to the time of Jesus was God's plan to save mankind. Jesus was the only person born of a virgin birth so that He did not have the principle of sin and rebellion in Him. That is why He could die on the cross and receive the full wrath and anger of God for the sin of the whole world. But there is a condition. To take advantage of the plan, one has to believe on Jesus, make Him their Lord, repent of all their sins, and live a holy life. That is the way out.

Anyone who rebels against a lawful government or authority receives punishment. It is to protect and acknowledge the goodness of law-abiding people. If rebellion and crime went unpunished in our societies, we would have total anarchy with millions of innocent people being killed, and raped, such as has happened in some third world countries around the world when one tribe has been allowed to go in a murder thousands of an opposing tribe, such as happened in Riwanda a number of years ago, and in Cambodia during the Pol Pot regime. Would you want those murderers of innocent men, women and children to go unpunished? Of course not.

Then would we then expect those who rebel against God, murder and rape Christians around the world, and throughout Church history, to go unpunished by God? Of course not. People have a choice then, continue in their rebellion against God and suffer the eternal consequences, or take up God's offer of salvation through Christ and be saved. If you went to heaven, would you want to share it with a murderer who killed your family, raped your wife and dashed your children head first on the ground? Would you? The whole point of the Judgment is to separate those who choose to retain their rebellious, sinful life-styles, from those who choose to live a holy life through Christ.

In actual fact, Judgment has already started in our western nations. God's judgment is to give people up to their sins. That is why there is a major increase in murders, rapes, robberies, prostitution, homosexuality, greed, heartlessness, murder of unborn babies, and so on. God is letting those things happen in our societies so that those who practice this filth will have no excuse when God comes to Judge the nations. And it will happen one day. After all, no one is going anywhere, are they?

But God has provided a way out through His Son Jesus Christ. It is "repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". God will give the gift of the Holy Spirit only to those who have repented of their sinful habit patterns and lifestyle and put their full trust in Christ, and have a determination to live a holy life.

God has given every man and woman the choice: Chose life or death. It has to be a free choice. No one forces anyone to commit suicide like the woman who jumped off the Empire State building in the 1960s. She made a free choice to die. She could have made a free choice to go on living and get therapy. But she chose death. It is the same in God. God has shown mankind the way to life, through Christ. People can freely choose eternal life in Christ, or choose eternal separation from God and every good thing that He has created. The Bible is very clear about that. If you don't believe that, you don't believe the Bible.

I am not making any personal judgments of you. I don't know you. But I can hold up God's standards and conditions for receiving eternal life and entry into the kingdom of God. If you decide to accept it, then that is your choice; but if you decide to reject it, then that is your free choice also and you will experience the consequences of the choice you decide to make.

Thank you for another enlightening read! I just want to add in a few things: one, I am not saying that the actions of men should go unpunished. What I am saying is whether the punishment fits the crime, or in this case, sin. Eternity is a notion that we cannot comprehend, and continuously punishing someone for an action that they are bound to be repentful for once they realize the err of their ways is wrong. I choose to disagree with this tenant, and while I can accept that that may be as God decreed - but that doesn't make it any less wrong. Two, God gives us a choice in theory, but if we are to accept the notion of eternal paradise/damnation. Then what we really have is, follow my every whim and worship me or die a horrible death repeatedly. This doesn't seem like much of a choice, does it? After all, most sane people would rather be hypocritical unto themselves than risk eternal damnation. Additionally, since we cannot comprehend the true extent of the consequences set forth by God - then the intentional nature of sin is in question.
 
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Tokono

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A nice sentiment that has nothing to do with whether an offical body has the power to detain you.

Try arguing that you don't agree with a speed limit and see how far you get.

What? People disagree and don't accept the rulings of authority all time. It's actually quite lucrative field for those that practice law. Again, just because it is decreed does not make it right.


Judgement of behaviour as to whether it complies with God given standards is valid. Often how that judgement is expressed is unwise and uncaring.

Judgement of behavior with God standards is valid, only when one is free from sin. Which is technically impossible given the fallible nature of the human species. A sinner cannot judge a sinner, the same way a hypocrite cannot judge a hypocrite. Or, could you possibly be selectively enforcing teachings? Matthews 7:1-5.


The dession as to what books were included had nothing to do with how those who made the desicions felt and every thing to do with facts relating to who wrote it, when it was written and what proof could be offered.
Ever one of the books you mention can be dated to the 2nd centuary. The NT books can be dated to the 1st centuary.
The information about how we got the bible is common knowledge. try coldcasechristianity for information on it.

This has been brought up before "coldcasechristianity". I shall look into it thoroughly. Thanks for the advice.
 
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Tokono

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For number 1 I believe myself to be responsible for the things I understand to be true and one of them is I don't have the wisdom nor knowledge to judge the entirety of the human race, past, present and future. I do see how such things can be used as an excuse to lose faith in God and charge Him with wrongdoing by rejecting Him and establishing one's own righteousness. Job 40:8

Number 2 the way I see it is about knowing the difference between the responsibilities a Christian will receive in the kingdom of God with the reward of even being there. That the actions we do here and now do have consequences later in the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 3:15.

Number 3 is equally about heterosexuality, it's about coveting and letting your sexual attraction dominate a person's life choices. It's increasingly hard to see since the connections between the pleasure of sex and having children has been divided and separated into two different things in our culture 2 Timothy 3:4.

Number 4 I believe is a result of not being thoroughly familiar with textual criticism by scholars pro and con. Deciding what constitutes inspired scripture and what constitutes historical documents and their accurateness requires first understanding what makes them different from one another.

Hey there,

I have to say I am intrigued by your responses, primarily Number 3. I do not have a rebuttal on this topic, but I do see how the focus would coincide with sensationalism - and the focus of Christians. Number 1, now I too see how this can be used as an excuse to reject him and lead their own righteousness - however I am not saying these people should not be punished. Again, its the eternity factor I disagree with not the punishment. Number 2 coincidences with this. Number 4, who are we to decide what constitutes inspired scripture and what constitutes historical documents and their accurateness? What is someone made a mistake? (Also, how does one begin to even determine the authenticity of the book of Gensis.)
 
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Tokono

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Hello, Tokono. I'd like to suggest that you do have a choice as to "how" and "why" you form your understanding about the Christian faith. While I of course would not jettison any general Trinitarian type of Christian belief, there are some issues within the faith that may not be...really...as set in stone as some leaders in the post-Apostolic Church have made them out to be, or these issues may perhaps be better understood by considering additional contexts that some earlier Church leaders didn't consider. So, maybe keep this in mind. It might also not hurt to begin again and take a more existentially prone position to the Christian faith in a way similar to Blaise Pascal.

Does this make sense? If not, tell me what part doesn't make sense, and I'll focus in on that part a bit more. I think it is possible for you to become a bona-fide Christian if, deep inside, you feel that if it is possible, and you'd really like to find faith in Christ and have Eternal Life in God. :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Hey there! I would like you to explain a bit more by what you mean by "It might also not hurt to begin again and take a more existentially prone position to the Christian faith in a way similar to Blaise Pascal." Also, I do consider myself Christian, I just disagree with modern day interpretation of his teachings and written word. Whether I will suffer consequences for them on the day of judgement is left to be determined; I don't take the stance of disbelief, I take the stance of wanting to learn the "why". And truthfully, I think only God may have those answers.
 
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