Let me ask this then. If the saints have already put on immortality at the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 20:11-15 indicates it is only the dead standing in front of God, how did immortal saints die again in order to be standing among the dead at the GWTJ? Especially if one concludes the GWTJ occurs a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming?
Hi david,
Ok, well, since we need to be on the same page let's start with your explaining exactly where in the Scriptures you are referencing 'immortality'. There are several places where that word is used to describe the believers changing from a mortal being to an immortal being.
Secondly, if one reads the passage in Revelation 20, we find: And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life...
They came to life. May I ask when this happened? When did the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, come to life? When did these souls come to life? Or how do you reconcile, this passage as meaning something else altogether? This event, if it did in fact happen in the reality of life, is described to us as happening just prior to the 1,000 year reign.
It would seem from the plain reading of the text that the believers are raised to life first, this is the first resurrection. Those raised in the first resurrection, again according to the text, are then raised to eternal life. The second death has no power over them. They live and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years and then the rest of the dead are brought also to life. So, the ones of the first resurrection, as far as we know, are still alive and living their eternal lives from the time that they were first resurrected immediately as the reign of Jesus began and carrying through the rest of those resurrected after Jesus' reign and going into the day of God's judgment.
Then their names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life so their sins are forgiven them and they do not have a part in the second death. So, it would seem that this passage explains that from the time the souls are raised up in the first resurrection, those who are involved with that resurrection have eternal life.
The Revelation also tells us at the end of this event: Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So, it would seem that it is during this time of God's judgment that the Lamb's Book of Life is consulted to find the names of those who Jesus has declared are saved by his sacrifice. Again, all of these will have been raised at the first resurrection and will have maintained their life through the judgment of God and will have been immortal from the time that they were raised as part of the first resurrection.
Our difficulty seems to be the 'when' those who have believed in Jesus will be made immortal. The truth is that any one of us who has true faith in the Lord, we live with the hope of immortality from that point of declaring Jesus is Lord. Yes, just as Jesus said, those who believe in him, even though they die, will be raised again to life.
Now, it is very possible that the raising of the born again to life is the same event as Jesus resurrecting the dead when he comes on the clouds in great glory. That could well be the event that John saw when he says that "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life..." If that's the case, then there's a very good argument to be made for a premillinniel return of Jesus. Which is, BTW, my understanding of Jesus' return.
Those alive when the great tribulation comes upon the earth like has never been before, nor will ever be again, will continue to live right on through those days of tribulation. When Jesus returns to put an end to the wickedness upon the earth he will gather his elect from the four winds of the earth and we may well see the immediate beginning of the 1,000 year reign.
So, I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that the '2nd coming' and this event that John is portraying to us, are one and the same. As far as we know, when Jesus returns to collect his from the earth, they don't go back into the grave. So it may well be that this event that does tell us that Jesus is going to collect souls from the grave and from those living upon the earth at his return is portraying the same event that John is speaking of.
BTW, I'm not necessarily in agreement that your passage you reference in the Revelation makes clear that it is 'only' the dead who are standing before the throne. Those who were alive from the first resurrection may also be there, but John is just saying that now he also sees the dead standing before the throne.
God bless,
In Christ, ted