Questions about the timing of the thousand years

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
satan isn't bound indefinetly, he's only bound a thousand years then is loosed a little season.
I don't believe in a literal 1,000 years. (At the moment) I believe satan was "loosed" during the Great Tribulation and during the time of the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Luke 11:14

Compared with this in Revelation 20:3---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season

What exactly is that you are seeing in Luke 11:14-22 that you feel supports what I have quoted from Revelation 20:3? Keep in mind, not only does my quote include why he is bound, it also includes the fact he must be loosed. So IOW I'm looking for what you are seeing in Luke 11:14-22 that supports both ideas
brought out in Revelation 20:3 via the quote I submitted from that verse.
That's a good question that I'll have to ponder and study out for a bit. Right now, I'm completely unsure.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is something that just came to mind. Can satan fulfill any of the following during the thousand years?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The above is what satan begins doing once he has been cast to the earth. The first question is, when does he initially get cast to the earth?

Below is the condition satan finds himself in during the thousand years.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled----


If satan has been cast into the BP, and shut up, and a seal set upon him, can he also persecute the woman which brought forth the man child? Can he also go to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ? Which BTW, the latter here relates to question #2 I asked in the OP.

If one concludes satan was cast to the earth around the time of the ascension or so, this would indicate Revelation 12:12-17 involves 2000 years or so. Which BTW would be when Amils are claiming satan is bound in the pit. Personally I don't find it unreasonable that Revelation 12:12-17 might involve 2000 years or so. What I do find unreasonable, if it does indeed involve 2000 years or so, that it would be occurring during a time satan is bound in the pit. BTW I'm not saying I agree Revelation 12:12-17 might involve 2000 years or so, but that I don't find it unreasonable if it actually does.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,369
7,745
Canada
✟722,927.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
It's a serious matter that cannot be resolved apart from a Calvinistic understanding of salvation.
Yeah, because the writer of the Revelation didn't understand it at all right? Since calvinism didn't exist yet. . .
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Can satan fulfill any of the following during the thousand years?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The above is what satan begins doing once he has been cast to the earth. The first question is, when does he initially get cast to the earth?
I'm still as wobbly as ever - but I do believe this was when the early church fled to Pella during the Jewish Revolts of 66-70 A.D. I believe (right now, anyway) that this was when Satan was "loosed for a little while" in the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple system.

It's interesting to read "the earth helped the woman" after reading this (that much of the early church lived in cities UNDER THE GROUND). I don't recall catching that passage before (but it probably makes more sense looking back at the text with this knowledge):

upload_2019-7-1_17-28-30.jpeg


cap.jpg

Photographs of early Christian churches in the Cappadocia region on view at Penn Museum

Massive Underground City Found in Cappadocia Region of Turkey

Below is the condition satan finds himself in during the thousand years.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled----


If satan has been cast into the BP, and shut up, and a seal set upon him, can he also persecute the woman which brought forth the man child? Can he also go to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ? Which BTW, the latter here relates to question #2 I asked in the OP.
As I posted above, I believe satan already made war with the remnant in the first century - but, because they listened to Jesus' teaching - they were kept safe.
If one concludes satan was cast to the earth around the time of the ascension or so, this would indicate Revelation 12:12-17 involves 2000 years or so. Which BTW would be when Amils are claiming satan is bound in the pit. Personally I don't find it unreasonable that Revelation 12:12-17 might involve 2000 years or so. What I do find unreasonable, if it does indeed involve 2000 years or so, that it would be occurring during a time satan is bound in the pit. BTW I'm not saying I agree Revelation 12:12-17 might involve 2000 years or so, but that I don't find it unreasonable if it actually does.
But within that period of the thousand years - doesn't the text state "he must be loosed/released for a little while"?

From Ken Gentry: "This binding does not result in the total inactivity of Satan; rather, it restrains his power by Christ’s.[1]"


Likewise, amillennial G.K. Beale writes,

The binding was probably inaugurated during Christ’s ministry, which is more the focus of texts such as Matt. 12:29; Mark 3:27; and Luke 10:17-19. Satan’s binding was climactically put in motion immediately after Christ’s resurrection, and it lasts throughout most of the age between Christ’s first and second comings.[2]

The ‘binding’ (deo) of Satan in Mark 3:27 (= Matt. 12:29) does not restrict all his activities but highlights the fact that Jesus is sovereign over him and his demonic forces… That Satan is “cast out” (exballo) by Christ’s death does not restrict Satan in every way. Rather, it keeps him from preventing ‘all people’ throughout the earth being drawn to Jesus (John 12:31-32).[3]

‘Sealing’ may connote an absolute incarceration, but could just as well connote the general idea of ‘authority over,’ which is its primary meaning also in Dan. 6:17 and Matt. 27:66 (though the context of the latter pertains to absolute confinement). God’s ‘seal’ on Christians does not protect them in every sense but only in a spiritual, salvific manner, since they suffer from persecution in various physical ways. Conversely, God’s seal on Satan prevents him from harming the salvific security of the true church, though he can harm it physically.[4] ~ (Rev. 20:2-3) Is Satan currently bound? | Evidence Unseen
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

miamited

Ted
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let me ask this then. If the saints have already put on immortality at the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 20:11-15 indicates it is only the dead standing in front of God, how did immortal saints die again in order to be standing among the dead at the GWTJ? Especially if one concludes the GWTJ occurs a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming?

Hi david,

Ok, well, since we need to be on the same page let's start with your explaining exactly where in the Scriptures you are referencing 'immortality'. There are several places where that word is used to describe the believers changing from a mortal being to an immortal being.

Secondly, if one reads the passage in Revelation 20, we find: And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life...

They came to life. May I ask when this happened? When did the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, come to life? When did these souls come to life? Or how do you reconcile, this passage as meaning something else altogether? This event, if it did in fact happen in the reality of life, is described to us as happening just prior to the 1,000 year reign.

It would seem from the plain reading of the text that the believers are raised to life first, this is the first resurrection. Those raised in the first resurrection, again according to the text, are then raised to eternal life. The second death has no power over them. They live and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years and then the rest of the dead are brought also to life. So, the ones of the first resurrection, as far as we know, are still alive and living their eternal lives from the time that they were first resurrected immediately as the reign of Jesus began and carrying through the rest of those resurrected after Jesus' reign and going into the day of God's judgment.

Then their names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life so their sins are forgiven them and they do not have a part in the second death. So, it would seem that this passage explains that from the time the souls are raised up in the first resurrection, those who are involved with that resurrection have eternal life.

The Revelation also tells us at the end of this event: Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So, it would seem that it is during this time of God's judgment that the Lamb's Book of Life is consulted to find the names of those who Jesus has declared are saved by his sacrifice. Again, all of these will have been raised at the first resurrection and will have maintained their life through the judgment of God and will have been immortal from the time that they were raised as part of the first resurrection.

Our difficulty seems to be the 'when' those who have believed in Jesus will be made immortal. The truth is that any one of us who has true faith in the Lord, we live with the hope of immortality from that point of declaring Jesus is Lord. Yes, just as Jesus said, those who believe in him, even though they die, will be raised again to life.

Now, it is very possible that the raising of the born again to life is the same event as Jesus resurrecting the dead when he comes on the clouds in great glory. That could well be the event that John saw when he says that "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life..." If that's the case, then there's a very good argument to be made for a premillinniel return of Jesus. Which is, BTW, my understanding of Jesus' return.

Those alive when the great tribulation comes upon the earth like has never been before, nor will ever be again, will continue to live right on through those days of tribulation. When Jesus returns to put an end to the wickedness upon the earth he will gather his elect from the four winds of the earth and we may well see the immediate beginning of the 1,000 year reign.

So, I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that the '2nd coming' and this event that John is portraying to us, are one and the same. As far as we know, when Jesus returns to collect his from the earth, they don't go back into the grave. So it may well be that this event that does tell us that Jesus is going to collect souls from the grave and from those living upon the earth at his return is portraying the same event that John is speaking of.

BTW, I'm not necessarily in agreement that your passage you reference in the Revelation makes clear that it is 'only' the dead who are standing before the throne. Those who were alive from the first resurrection may also be there, but John is just saying that now he also sees the dead standing before the throne.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm still as wobbly as ever - but I do believe this was when the early church fled to Pella during the Jewish Revolts of 66-70 A.D. I believe (right now, anyway) that this was when Satan was "loosed for a little while" in the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple system.

It's interesting to read "the earth helped the woman" after reading this (that much of the early church lived in cities UNDER THE GROUND). I don't recall catching that passage before (but it probably makes more sense looking back at the text with this knowledge):


As I posted above, I believe satan already made war with the remnant in the first century - but, because they listened to Jesus' teaching - they were kept safe.

But within that period of the thousand years - doesn't the text state "he must be loosed/released for a little while"?

From Ken Gentry: "This binding does not result in the total inactivity of Satan; rather, it restrains his power by Christ’s.[1]"


Likewise, amillennial G.K. Beale writes,

The binding was probably inaugurated during Christ’s ministry, which is more the focus of texts such as Matt. 12:29; Mark 3:27; and Luke 10:17-19. Satan’s binding was climactically put in motion immediately after Christ’s resurrection, and it lasts throughout most of the age between Christ’s first and second comings.[2]

The ‘binding’ (deo) of Satan in Mark 3:27 (= Matt. 12:29) does not restrict all his activities but highlights the fact that Jesus is sovereign over him and his demonic forces… That Satan is “cast out” (exballo) by Christ’s death does not restrict Satan in every way. Rather, it keeps him from preventing ‘all people’ throughout the earth being drawn to Jesus (John 12:31-32).[3]

‘Sealing’ may connote an absolute incarceration, but could just as well connote the general idea of ‘authority over,’ which is its primary meaning also in Dan. 6:17 and Matt. 27:66 (though the context of the latter pertains to absolute confinement). God’s ‘seal’ on Christians does not protect them in every sense but only in a spiritual, salvific manner, since they suffer from persecution in various physical ways. Conversely, God’s seal on Satan prevents him from harming the salvific security of the true church, though he can harm it physically.[4] ~ (Rev. 20:2-3) Is Satan currently bound? | Evidence Unseen
Below is what it meant by Satan being bound. The reason the illustration of Satan being bound is located where it is? Is because Revelation 19 is a prophecy about the end of the Roman Empire 1453 AD. The end of the age of the four gentile empires. Revelation 20-21 are part of a very large body of prophecies about a promised age. But read this below.


How is Satan is Bound
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
This is one of the Biblical teachings alluded to that seems more applicable in this age rather than the age when the Bible was being written. It's not so much applicability as it is the visible effects of it when applied. Lets look at some New Testament teachings along these lines. Jesus said: Matthew 16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Here are examples of this in dealing just with the spiritual world and demons with Christians and non Christians. Africa today as all cultures have, is coming out of paganism and idolatry. Here is a testimony of someone who has been there a few times. They were warned by certain Pentecostal missionaries that they would see satanic displays when he went there. The African pastors of the churches they taught at said the same. Even showing movies about it. This person had many decades of experience working through the complexities of spiritual things though. Luke 10:19 had become a hard core reality in their life Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. In fact they had learned that Satan's only power over believers was deception. If something was happening that was demonic in origin. If that was found out. Then the issue was over with. Most of the time no words have to even be spoken. Just the fact that something had been happening, and it came to light that it was of demonic origin. That was enough to not only have power over that aspect of the spiritual world but have complete power over the adverse circumstances. In it's most basic form God had shown time and time again that the only power demons have over believers and people in general is not what God gives the demons but what the believer and people give them. Be it though ignorance or sin. (Just think of the Garden of Eden.) So in this particular individuals life Satan has to be hidden to get away with anything. If he gets away with anything. Whether circumstantially or directly influencing the person it's because he successfully remained hidden. So this person respectfully told everyone no, they will see nothing when they goes to Africa. In fact they taught about these things in their church's. What was taught was that because people are open to these demonic manifestations, that is why they see them. If indeed they have power over demons which many of them did. Then these manifestations are happening because they have literally been deceived into allowing them in their lives. They have "loosed" these demons in heaven to manifest themselves because they loosed them (in their own hearts) to do these things on earth . You see, they have been deceived into believing this is normal and the way things are. They, the ones with power over the demons and by extension everyone else are permitting these manifestations. So, if through the redemptive work of Christ they see this deception and "bind" this activity on earth. That is, in their hearts, accept a new reality. It will be bound in heaven and not happen anymore. They need not go through any prayers of binding demons and such. As a matter of fact, how can you with words, "bind" what you are permitting in your heart in the first place? The answer to that is you cannot. To bring the point home it was explained to them that in the United States people who are open to these types of demonic manifestations usually don't see satyrs and other pagan things. The "sophisticated " westerner see's aliens and UFO's. Some are "abducted" and have the same weird sexual experimentation done on them as done in Africa. Same demons deceiving hearts that are in different paradigms. Indeed it took a few years but the fruit of this truth put an end to "seeing" all of this witchcraft and manifestations for some of these pastors. In fact one of them spoke angrily about the Pentecostal missionaries still telling people who are going to Africa that they will see these manifestations. Now keep in mind this is a national phenomena in lands like this. Everything is blamed on witchcraft amongst the unsaved and even many believers. What happens if the populations as a whole completely rid their hearts of the things that allow these manifestations? That question leads to the next scripture.
Jesus as part of training his followers to do what he was doing sent 70 of them out to teach, preach, heal the sick and cast out demons. When they returned from their hands on training this conversation occurred. Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject to us through your name. 18 And he said to them, I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give to you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Jesus's response was highlighting a few things. He was prophesying the eventual demise of Satan's influence over mankind that apparently he just had a vision of. That was also verification from God his father about how the preaching of the Gospel would be the method God uses to spread his government. He was also teaching his disciples about the results of the ministry they just finished. That because of what they just shared with the people they ministered to by example and teaching. Satan's influence over those people was just dealt a horrible blow. The darkness that Satan used to cloud their hearts and governed what they believed and accepted just had the light of God shined on it. Many hearts had just been changed. Many beliefs have been altered or done away with. Truths hitherto unknown or unclear have just been accepted. Satan who had a place in those hearts through that darkness would now have much greater difficulty finding a way to manipulate them. Now lets take what happened in that small scale with this story in Luke 10:17 and apply it to what occurred three to four centuries later.
As stated before. The government of the Roman Empire completely and officially revolved around abominable idolatrous practices. This was handed down over the centuries from the time shortly after Noah's flood. These practices had not been permitted to satanically fully develop like it had in the land of Canaan of the Bible or the America's. The reason for this lack of running it's full course in an insane downward spiral was very simply, Moses. The influence of the Government of God through ancient Israel and then the Israelites dispersed throughout that world tempered it. So instead of the sacrificing tens of thousands (if not millions) of human beings on the alters of their gods. Also, eating their bodies, and the involvement of unspeakable sexual practices with this. As occurred in Canaan, the America's and undoubtedly other parts of the world. The Romans contented themselves with a total immersion into the gods of that world apart from the human sacrifice and the madness that revolved around it. This didn't stop them from adopting just about every other idolatrous practice known to mankind from the emperors on down. It was a world that is unrecognizable to us today. Even the India of today, the land of a million Gods, would not compare. The practices of the hard core idolaters are not being used by a despotic government to control the population at present. Not that there are not some who wouldn't like it that way. So. When you have the most powerful men in the world consulting animal entrails to show them what actions they should take. When a class of government civil servants are trained in such nonsense as reading of the stars and omens. When priests from these "mystery's" are in the employment of the elite. Satan is the dominate influence. Just as the scripture said in Revelation 13:2....and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
It was in this backdrop that the early believers struck out into. They were persecuted, chased, murdered and eventually total extermination was attempted. Within a few centuries they won the hearts and minds of so many people in the Roman Empire that the idolaters lost their place of influence in society. Even the emperors forsook it. Not that these emperors who claimed themselves now to be Christians were really converted. In fact to secure their empire they took over the movement that destroyed the influence of the idolaters. They instituted an imperial church to control believers and their work. They used the ancient religious framework of Rome to fashion the institutional design of imperial church. Although many rituals and rites, holidays and gods were "Christianized." Christian labels attached to pagan rites, rituals and holidays. The abominable practices of the idolaters were mostly done away with. No more reading of animal entrails. The idea that sex with anything, man, woman, beast, or child being acceptable was completely destroyed. The perverse sexual practices that were the norm of the ancient world were no longer approved. Not that many did not still practice these crimes but they were not recognized by society as anything but sinful degenerate behavior. This is what Jesus meant that he saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven. Satan was losing his influence piece by piece. In one area of life after another. He was "bound" because men no longer consented to certain things they accepted and believed previously. Satan cannot work through areas of the heart that have rejected darkness and accepted light.
Now simply transpose this to todays world. Certain things that had been established since the world began have little or no place in the minds and hearts of whole populations. Such as the idea of idolatry, kings and slavery. In fact whole populations have replaced some of the most diabolical lies with Biblical truth's. Thereby limiting Satan's influence over them in specific area's. He is bound, that is, unless he gets loose. Which will be what another section of Revelation 20 is about. However, these simple truths are "the keys of the kingdom of heaven." The Gospel preached, taught and accepted either in truth or in principle by majorities of populations is how the prophesied Kingdom of God fills the whole earth. By the words "in truth." It is meant that a significant minority of a population become true believers. By the words "in principle." It is meant that another significant minority may not become believers; but they accept the principles of the Bible for human behavior, relationships and government as their standard. These two groups forming a solid majority in a culture can (and have) effectively bound Satan's ability work in their land. Meaning Satan no longer has a place in their hearts to operate as he did in the ancient world. Not that he isn't always active, probing and working to create that place once more. Nor is it meant that he has no influence whatsoever. A good question may be, to what degree has this worked in worked in the past? If the past can be an indication and a benchmark. Then in theory anyway, we might speculate about degree's of influence in the future.
1 John 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, because you have known him that is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok, well, since we need to be on the same page let's start with your explaining exactly where in the Scriptures you are referencing 'immortality'. There are several places where that word is used to describe the believers changing from a mortal being to an immortal being.

The following would be one place.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

One of the keys to the timing of this would be this---In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. That only makes sense at the end of this current age. There would be no sounding of a trumpet like this a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming. 1 Corinthians 15:52-57 is the 2nd coming.

Verse 52 states this---for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. What trumpet shall sound? What dead shall rise at that time? Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 for a moment.


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God---how about this trump?


and the dead in Christ shall rise first:---how about this dead?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Since these alive would still be mortal, they need to be changed as well. 1 Corinthians 15:53 equally applies to them.

What dead do we not see rising at this time? The lost dead of course. This tells us that their resurrection is meant for a later time. How much later. That's obviously debatable.



Secondly, if one reads the passage in Revelation 20, we find: And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life...

They came to life. May I ask when this happened? When did the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, come to life? When did these souls come to life? Or how do you reconcile, this passage as meaning something else altogether? This event, if it did in fact happen in the reality of life, is described to us as happening just prior to the 1,000 year reign.


It happens at the 2nd coming at the beginning of the thousand years, or just prior to it's beginning anyway. IOW the dead in Christ rising first, this equals the first resurrection per Revelation 20:4 and 20:6.

It would seem from the plain reading of the text that the believers are raised to life first, this is the first resurrection. Those raised in the first resurrection, again according to the text, are then raised to eternal life. The second death has no power over them. They live and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years and then the rest of the dead are brought also to life. So, the ones of the first resurrection, as far as we know, are still alive and living their eternal lives from the time that they were first resurrected immediately as the reign of Jesus began

Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, it looks like we agree here up to this point anyway, in regards to this particular paragraph.

I probably still need to try and address the remainder of your post but unfortunately I am not up to the task atm. This is the best I can do for the time being.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even if the thousand years were to happen in this age, it still wouldn't make sense to me that everyone is at the GWTJ standing in front of God. The dead in Christ rise first, then those still alive get caught up together with them. As to the latter, they don't ever physically die but instead are transformed into instant immortality. At this point, the dead in Christ who rise first, and those saved who are still alive, have put on instant immortality, and that the GWTJ hasn't even occurred yet.

How do all of these then die in order to end up standing in front of God with the rest of the dead at the GWTJ? Even if the GWTJ were to occur within hours of the 1 Thessalonian 4 fulfillment, only the dead are at that judgment and that these in 1 Thessalonian 4 are no longer dead but alive forever more. Maybe it's this chronology matter I keep bringing up that tends to cause me to continue reasoning in this manner? But if I disregarded chronology altogether, how would I be able to logically distinguish 1st coming events with that of 2nd coming events, so on and so on?
The resurrection/rapture happens on the last day. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so this rules out Premillennialism and Dispensationalism. The "millennium" would have only saints in glorified bodies to populate it. Which means Satan would have only these to rally against each other when loosed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
OK. Like others here, I'll just leave you to your own understanding.
If you go by what Jesus says about the kingdom, and not by what the pharisees expected, you will begin to understand Revelation 20.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1----can satan deceive any nations during the thousand years?

No.

Revelation 20:1-3 NASB Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. (2) And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; (3) and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


2----can satan wage war with anyone during the thousand years?

No. Revelation 20:1-3.

3----can saints be persecuted and killed during the thousand years?

Not the resurrected ones, but it is conceivable that a believer could be persecuted and killed during the Millennium just as Cain killed Abel, but it will not happen on a broad scale during the Millennium.

4----can satan continue to do what is said of him in 1 Peter 5:8, during the thousand years?

No, Revelation 20:1-3.

5----does satan still act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not?

No, Revelation 20:1-3

6----can anyone begin reigning with Christ after the fact, meaning they weren't yet reigning with Him when the thousand years initially began, but begin reigning with Him at some future point during the thousand years?

I am not absolutely certain, but I think the answer is no.
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,369
7,745
Canada
✟722,927.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Jesus produced Paul's theology, and ultimately Calvinism.
Calvinism came further in the history.

The mirror of Moses is Jesus
The mirror of the 12 tribes is the 12 apostles.
The mirror of the Judges period is the Orthodox Church.
The mirror of the Kings period is the Catholic Church, the pope is the mirror of the earthly king.
The reformation is the removing of the kingdom from Solomon
What we have today is the result of captivity

Calvinism came from the reformation type thought, it wasn't a concept until then.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The resurrection/rapture happens on the last day. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so this rules out Premillennialism and Dispensationalism. The "millennium" would have only saints in glorified bodies to populate it. Which means Satan would have only these to rally against each other when loosed.


All of the above aside for a moment. Do you have an opinion of Isaiah 60:9-22 then? Do you think it involves the NHNE? An Amil on another board recently indicated Isaiah 60:9-22 involves the thousand years and not the NHNE. I tend to think it maybe involves both.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not the resurrected ones, but it is conceivable that a believer could be persecuted and killed during the Millennium just as Cain killed Abel, but it will not happen on a broad scale during the Millennium.

Is this implying there would be believers during the millennium who are not yet immortal?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
5----does satan still act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not?

I asked this question in the OP. If the thousand years have already been in progress for the past 2000 years, Amils have to undeniably agree satan continues to act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not.

How can satan possibly pull this off though without it involving deception? Keeping in mind this----that he should deceive the nations no more, till
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
All of the above aside for a moment. Do you have an opinion of Isaiah 60:9-22 then? Do you think it involves the NHNE? An Amil on another board recently indicated Isaiah 60:9-22 involves the thousand years and not the NHNE. I tend to think it maybe involves both.
We need to spread all of the OT prophecies out to where they fit. The parameters are from Christ's first advent to the restoration of Israel (resurrection of believers) on the last day and into the New Heavens and earth.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We need to spread all of the OT prophecies out to where they fit. The parameters are from Christ's first advent to the restoration of Israel (resurrection of believers) on the last day and into the New Heavens and earth.


Are you meaning all those eras of time can be found within Isaiah 60:9-22? If yes, which verse or verses would be involving events from Christ's first advent to the restoration of Israel (resurrection of believers)?


What about verse 11 for example? Does that involve events from Christ's first advent to the restoration of Israel (resurrection of believers)? Or does that involve the time of the NHNE after Christ has returned?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you meaning all those eras of time can be found within Isaiah 60:9-22? If yes, which verse or verses would be involving events from Christ's first advent to the restoration of Israel (resurrection of believers)?


What about verse 11 for example? Does that involve events from Christ's first advent to the restoration of Israel (resurrection of believers)? Or does that involve the time of the NHNE after Christ has returned?

Here's the Geneva Bible notes on this;

Verse 9
k. The Gētiles that are now enemies, shal become friēds & letters for the of the Church.

Verse 10
l. Meaning, Cyrus and his successors but chiefly this is accomplished in them that serve Christ beīg coverted by his Gospel.

Verse 12
m. He sheweth yt God hathe givē all power & autoritie here in earth for the use of his Church: and that they which wil not serve and profit ye same, shal be destroied.

Verse 13
n. There is nothing so excellent which shal not serve the necessitie of ye Church.
o. Signifying, that Gods majestie is not included in ye temple, wc is but the place for his fete, yt we may learne to rise up to ye heavens.

Verse 14
p. To worship their head Christ by obeyīg his doctrine.

Verse 16
q. Bothe hie and lowe shal be readie to helpe and succour thee.

Verse 17
r. Thy governours shal love thee and seke thy wealth and prosperitie.

Verse 18
s. Meaning, not a temporal felicitie, but a spiritual, wc is fulfilled in Christs kingdome.

Verse 19
t. Signifying that all worldelie meanes shal cease, & that Christ shalbe all in all, as Revel. 21:22 & 22:5.

Verse 21
u. The children of the Church.

Verse 22
x. Meaning, yt yc Church shulde be miraculously mulitplied.


Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 1, pp. 303–304). Geneva: Rovland Hall.
 
Upvote 0