Questions about the timing of the thousand years

[Gregory Thompson]

You need to be a Calvinist before you can understand the scope of Satan's binding. Arminianism will throw you off track.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong, both too human centred instead of being Christ centred.

 

[miamited]

Hi dave,

Well, if all the various and sundry nouns are supposed to be taken metaphorically, then what the verses mean is pretty much anyone's guess. I tend to take the Scriptures more literally in what they tell us concerning the past, the present and the future. Yes, I realize that there are some metaphorical phrases such as 'like a melon hut in the field'. But, none of these verses seem to use that form of sentence construction or dialogue.

For me, the chains and the abyss mean exactly what they say. Satan will be bound by God in some sort of holding place for this thousand years that His Son will be living with the believers upon the earth. He won't be available, as he has been since the days of Adam and Eve, to roam about like a lion seeking whom he may destroy. God will then release him from that place of holding to again roam about like a lion seeking whom he may destroy. For me, this seems to be the simple and plain understanding of the text.

As gottservant has pointed out, the 1,000 years may not be exactly 1,000 years, that may or may not be the case. Again, I'm pretty literal in my understanding, but if the Greek term could mean 'at least 1,000' then so be it. In any case, the time of Jesus' reign with the believers upon the earth will come to an end. Then we proceed to the resurrection of all the dead, final judgment, and the everlasting destiny of both believers and non-believers. For me, this seems to be the fairly plain understanding of what John wrote. I believe the Scriptures are perfectly clear that not all the dead are resurrected to experience the reign of Jesus' 1,000 +/- upon the earth with the believers, but they must be raised before they can be called to God's day of judgment.

You began this conversation with me with this post:

This is not what Jesus taught. He said his kingdom is not of this world. It comes without observation. And only the born again can see it. You need to adjust Revelation which is symbolic to Jesus' words that are literal.

My post never mentioned the 1,000 years as being Jesus' kingdom and so I must assume that you're making that point to establish, somehow, that this 1,000 year reign and Jesus' kingdom are not the same thing. Which you then agree with in this post:

Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

I guess I'm at a loss as to what your first response to me was supposed to be saying. You agree that Satan will be loosed. Does that mean that you don't think Satan is 'loosed' now or has he been 'loosed' for some time. You say 'they' end. Who or what is 'they'? Is it your belief that Jesus' kingdom will end?

I'm just not clear on exactly when you are referencing that Satan will be loosed if we're all to believe that the whole account is some metaphorical design. That Satan really isn't 'bound' but he is under some sort of stricture because of the spreading of the gospel.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[BABerean2]

For me, the chains and the abyss mean exactly what they say.

Would that be a steel chain, like one from the hardware store, or would it be made of Christ's blood, or something else?
Could it be "chains of darkness"?

Has God already bound wicked angels in some way, based on the text below?

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.

 

[Dave L]

Hi dave,

Well, if all the various and sundry nouns are supposed to be taken metaphorically, then what the verses mean is pretty much anyone's guess. I tend to take the Scriptures more literally in what they tell us concerning the past, the present and the future. Yes, I realize that there are some metaphorical phrases such as 'like a melon hut in the field'. But, none of these verses seem to use that form of sentence construction or dialogue.

For me, the chains and the abyss mean exactly what they say. Satan will be bound by God in some sort of holding place for this thousand years that His Son will be living with the believers upon the earth. He won't be available, as he has been since the days of Adam and Eve, to roam about like a lion seeking whom he may destroy. God will then release him from that place of holding to again roam about like a lion seeking whom he may destroy. For me, this seems to be the simple and plain understanding of the text.

As gottservant has pointed out, the 1,000 years may not be exactly 1,000 years, that may or may not be the case. Again, I'm pretty literal in my understanding, but if the Greek term could mean 'at least 1,000' then so be it. In any case, the time of Jesus' reign with the believers upon the earth will come to an end. Then we proceed to the resurrection of all the dead, final judgment, and the everlasting destiny of both believers and non-believers. For me, this seems to be the fairly plain understanding of what John wrote. I believe the Scriptures are perfectly clear that not all the dead are resurrected to experience the reign of Jesus' 1,000 +/- upon the earth with the believers, but they must be raised before they can be called to God's day of judgment.

You began this conversation with me with this post:


My post never mentioned the 1,000 years as being Jesus' kingdom and so I must assume that your making that point to establish, somehow, that this 1,000 year reign and Jesus' kingdom are not the same thing. Which you then agree with in this post:


I guess I'm at a loss as to what your first response to me was supposed to be saying. You agree that Satan will be loosed. Does that mean that you don't think Satan is 'loosed' now or has he been 'loosed' for some time. You say 'they' end. Who or what is 'they'? Is it your belief that Jesus' kingdom will end?

I'm just not clear on exactly when you are referencing that Satan will be loosed if we're all to believe that the whole account is some metaphorical design. That Satan really isn't 'bound' but he is under some sort of stricture because of the spreading of the gospel.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The passages are literal. If Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world and you say it is, you are adding to Revelation. If Jesus says only the born again can see the kingdom, and you say anyone can see it, you are adding to Revelation. And so on throughout the entire list. Ar you denying Christ and concocting your own version of the kingdom?

 

[Douggg]

Well who will be making these people? Do you believe the second coming of Jesus happens before the 1000 years begins?

Everyone on earth who is still alive when Jesus returns; their children and their children, and their children.

 

[Dave L]

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong, both too human centred instead of being Christ centred.

It's a serious matter that cannot be resolved apart from a Calvinistic understanding of salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Everyone on earth who is still alive when Jesus returns; their children and their children, and their children.

But flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. And only the born again can see it.

 

[BABerean2]

Everyone on earth who is still alive when Jesus returns; their children and their children, and their children.

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

How many mortals will be left alive after "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18?

.

 

[Douggg]

But flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. And only the born again can see it.

The Kingdom of God is everlasting. And only them who receive the gospel can inherit the Kingdom of God.

When Jesus returns to earth their will be unsaved persons who survive the great tribulation, as well as saved persons, who will have children, and their children will have children, and their children will have children. Who will have the opportunity to receive the gospel during their lifetimes.

 

[Dave L]

The Kingdom of God is everlasting. And only them who receive the gospel can inherit the Kingdom of God.

When Jesus returns to earth their will be unsaved persons who survive the great tribulation, as well as saved persons, who will have children, and their children will have children, and their children will have children. Who will have the opportunity to receive the gospel during their lifetimes.

When Jesus returns it begins the resurrection/rapture and the New Heavens and Earth. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom = there is no millennial kingdom.

 

[_Dave_]

When Jesus returns it begins the resurrection/rapture and the New Heavens and Earth. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom = there is no millennial kingdom.

I just did a quick search in Blue Letter Bible in several popular bibles for any occurrence of millennial and kingdom appearing together, and I can't find any reference in Scripture saying that the millennium is meant to be the Kingdom, AKA "heaven."

The millennium is the 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ on the the Throne of David as promised throughout Scripture. During that time, there will be tribulation survivors living with their earthly bodies.

The New Heaven and the New Earth, which is the Kingdom mentioned so many times in Scripture, comes after that.

 

[Dave L]

I just did a quick search in Blue Letter Bible in several popular bibles for any occurrence of millennial and kingdom appearing together, and I can't find any reference in Scripture saying that the millennium is meant to be the Kingdom, AKA "heaven."

The millennium is the 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ on the the Throne of David as promised throughout Scripture. During that time, there will be tribulation survivors living with their earthly bodies.

The New Heaven and the New Earth, which is the Kingdom mentioned so many times in Scripture, comes after that.

= the kingdom.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Some think it's meaning in this age and that it's not a literal thousand years. Others believe it happens in the next age after Christ has returned.

Maybe what needs to be figured out first, what can occur during the thousand years and what can't.

I would like to pose some questions then.

1----can satan deceive any nations during the thousand years?

2----can satan wage war with anyone during the thousand years?

3----can saints be persecuted and killed during the thousand years?

4----can satan continue to do what is said of him in 1 Peter 5:8, during the thousand years?

5----does satan still act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not?

6----can anyone begin reigning with Christ after the fact, meaning they weren't yet reigning with Him when the thousand years initially began, but begin reigning with Him at some future point during the thousand years?

If you were to ask a Premil all 6 of these questions, I'm pretty sure all would be in full agreement about the answers. The answers to all 6 questions being no. But not everyone is Premil though.

Hi the prophecies will work like a Swiss watch meaning all together without contradiction so we have a debate as to how they work as all sides will seek to prove that they have not contradicted each other. The futurist view has the kingdom coming in a physical form with the regathering of Israel and their conversion key elements. The ideas expressed by those who hold to covenant theology are partially agreed with. We do also believe that the kingdom of heaven is what salvation is about and indeed in some sense there is a spiritual Israel. So can both be true? This is where the literalist have plenty of ammunition. If you look at the OT we see the king is coming lowly on the foal of an ass. Yes Jesus road in like that. But we also see in Dan 2 and 7 clear description of when and how the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end. In Dan 7 a pompous one arises and is persecuting the saints and overcoming them for a time times and half a time. Then one like the son of man is given the kingdom and he is described like the glorified Christ. He destroys the pompous one he is given to the flame just like the beast in REv and it says all the other beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. This glorious son of man is given a dominion that never ends.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[fn] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’ When you look at Zech 14 again the LORD is declared king over all the earth in that day. This day is when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes and fights in that day. The LORD melts His enemies and the Mt of Olives splits in two and new rivers flow year round and new valleys with specific boundaries are formed. And then the nations that are left must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This passage is not an allegory but describes the day the kingdom comes. Dan 7 shows the beast losing dominion just like Satan in Rev he is bound, they are bound. There lives are prolonged for a season and a time. Satan is bound for 1000 years and released for a time. He creates on last rebellion and simply surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down and that is the end of the age. Note that when the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end the LORD aka the son of man is giving victory over evil that is prevailing at the time of His coming in Jerusalem. This is when the kingdom begins and the 1000 years beign. At the end of the 1000 years this kingdom does not end it inherits the new Jerusalem and the end is described completely different than that of what is occurring at teh 2nd coming.
Lastly the path to the 2nd coming includes the 7 year tribulation with the abomination of desolation in the middle of the time line. This occurs in a 3rd temple which is already planned for and the global government that is described for that time is forming before our eyes with a moral compass equal to that of Sodom. We are watching current events track over the literal path. This is the greatest proof that these things are still future because the math of compound probabilities would make this scenario impossible.

 

[Dave L]

Hi the prophecies will work like a Swiss watch meaning all together without contradiction so we have a debate as to how they work as all sides will seek to prove that they have not contradicted each other. The futurist view has the kingdom coming in a physical form with the regathering of Israel and their conversion key elements. The ideas expressed by those who hold to covenant theology are partially agreed with. We do also believe that the kingdom of heaven is what salvation is about and indeed in some sense there is a spiritual Israel. So can both be true? This is where the literalist have plenty of ammunition. If you look at the OT we see the king is coming lowly on the foal of an ass. Yes Jesus road in like that. But we also see in Dan 2 and 7 clear description of when and how the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end. In Dan 7 a pompous one arises and is persecuting the saints and overcoming them for a time times and half a time. Then one like the son of man is given the kingdom and he is described like the glorified Christ. He destroys the pompous one he is given to the flame just like the beast in REv and it says all the other beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. This glorious son of man is given a dominion that never ends.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[fn] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’ When you look at Zech 14 again the LORD is declared king over all the earth in that day. This day is when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes and fights in that day. The LORD melts His enemies and the Mt of Olives splits in two and new rivers flow year round and new valleys with specific boundaries are formed. And then the nations that are left must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This passage is not an allegory but describes the day the kingdom comes. Dan 7 shows the beast losing dominion just like Satan in Rev he is bound, they are bound. There lives are prolonged for a season and a time. Satan is bound for 1000 years and released for a time. He creates on last rebellion and simply surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down and that is the end of the age. Note that when the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end the LORD aka the son of man is giving victory over evil that is prevailing at the time of His coming in Jerusalem. This is when the kingdom begins and the 1000 years beign. At the end of the 1000 years this kingdom does not end it inherits the new Jerusalem and the end is described completely different than that of what is occurring at teh 2nd coming.
Lastly the path to the 2nd coming includes the 7 year tribulation with the abomination of desolation in the middle of the time line. This occurs in a 3rd temple which is already planned for and the global government that is described for that time is forming before our eyes with a moral compass equal to that of Sodom. We are watching current events track over the literal path. This is the greatest proof that these things are still future because the math of compound probabilities would make this scenario impossible.

Why do you place this in future and not in the days of the Roman emperors?

 

[DavidPT]

You can read Revelation chronologically. Bu the oldest commentary of Revelation used the recapitulation approach. Just as you have four gospels giving various details of the same events, Revelation spans the entire New Covenant era, including the end of the world and the new heavens and earth, giving various details in parallel accounts of the same events.

Futurism looks for the symbols to happen. But a better way is to look for what the symbols represent. In this way Revelation contains history, the present and the future.

14.1. Recapitulation of Events Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ

We are not even on the same page here then. I'm not talking about reading Revelation in a chronological manner. I'm talking about chronology in general, and how or how it doesn't relate to Eschatology in particular. For example. There is a first coming and a 2nd coming. How can one even determine which is which, if chronology is only an illusion, thus meaningless? Look at the debate about the thousand years. Some claim it happens before Jesus returns. Others claim it happens after He returns. How can chronology not be playing a role into how one is determining where the thousand years might fit?

So when I see Paul telling us in 1 Thessalonians 4 that the dead in Christ rise first. Then John telling us in Revelation 19 that Jesus and His armies confront the beast and it's armies after the dead in Christ has already risen, followed by John also telling us in that same chapter, Jesus slays the remnant, all of these events tell me the GWTJ hasn't even occurred yet when Jesus slays the remnant. And since the remnant would now be dead, they have to now rise again before they can even be at the GWTJ. But if the resurrection of both the just and unjust has already taken place before the remnant are even slain by Jesus, what resurrection will they rise in then?

You indicated in another post that if one does a study on the kingdom of God all these things pan out in the end. Yet there still has to be logic to these things though. If chronology is meaningless, that should mean it shouldn't matter one way or the other if the events of the first coming precedes or follows the events of the 2nd coming. Of course though, the latter is not even logical.

I typed out quite a bit here in order to try and make my point. And I'm betting some of you still won't get my point.

 

[Dave L]

We are not even on the same page here then. I'm not talking about reading Revelation in a chronological manner. I'm talking about chronology in general, and how or how it doesn't relate to Eschatology in particular. For example. There is a first coming and a 2nd coming. How can one even determine which is which, if chronology is only an illusion, thus meaningless? Look at the debate about the thousand years. Some claim it happens before Jesus returns. Others claim it happens after He returns. How can chronology not be playing a role into how one is determining where the thousand years might fit?

So when I see Paul telling us in 1 Thessalonians 4 that the dead in Christ rise first. Then John telling us in Revelation 19 that Jesus and His armies confront the beast and it's armies after the dead in Christ has already risen, followed by John also telling us in that same chapter, Jesus slays the remnant, all of these events tell me the GWTJ hasn't even occurred yet when Jesus slays the remnant. And since the remnant would now be dead, they have to now rise again before they can even be at the GWTJ. But if the resurrection of both the just and unjust has already taken place before the remnant are even slain by Jesus, what resurrection will they rise in then?

You indicated in another post that if one does a study on the kingdom of God all these things pan out in the end. Yet there still has to be logic to these things though. If chronology is meaningless, that should mean it shouldn't matter one or the other if the events of the first coming precedes or follows the events of the 2nd coming. Of course though, the latter is not even logical.

I typed out quite a bit here in order to try and make my point. And I'm betting some of you still won't get my point.

I believe your starting point is off. we should begin with Jesus and his description of the kingdom. This rules out a physical millennium. And then use Matthew 24 as a framework for understanding Revelation. Which in this case favors the recapitulation view.

 

[DavidPT]

Satan is bound by the gospel and by those who reign over him preaching it. T

satan isn't bound forever, he's only bound for a thousand years, then he is loosed a little season. How can what you said above still apply when he is loosed? There is no logic in what you said above.

 

[sdowney717]

He already did this by his death, resurrection and ascension. He said so himself:

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Those all things accomplished were His earthly ministry. After He died on the cross, lots of additional things happened, so then it can not mean ALL things pertaining to everything.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe your starting point is off. we should begin with Jesus and his description of the kingdom. This rules out a physical millennium. And then use Matthew 24 as a framework for understanding Revelation. Which in this case favors the recapitulation view.

Maybe you are unaware of this, and if so, I will make you aware of it now. I do not believe the book of Revelation should be read in strict chronological order from beginning to end. Therefore I'm not even disputing a recap view. Yet, where one person might see a particular part as a recap, another person might not. An example, Revelation 20. But that doesn't mean there are no recaps in Revelation at all if one concludes Revelation 20 is not one of them.

And in case you hadn't noticed, I also mentioned 1 Thessalonians 4 in that other post. I'm pretty sure that chapter isn't even in the book of Revelation. Therefore my overall point I was trying to make has zero to do with whether or not Revelation contains some recaps throughout.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi the prophecies will work like a Swiss watch meaning all together without contradiction so we have a debate as to how they work as all sides will seek to prove that they have not contradicted each other. The futurist view has the kingdom coming in a physical form with the regathering of Israel and their conversion key elements. The ideas expressed by those who hold to covenant theology are partially agreed with. We do also believe that the kingdom of heaven is what salvation is about and indeed in some sense there is a spiritual Israel. So can both be true? This is where the literalist have plenty of ammunition. If you look at the OT we see the king is coming lowly on the foal of an ass. Yes Jesus road in like that. But we also see in Dan 2 and 7 clear description of when and how the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end. In Dan 7 a pompous one arises and is persecuting the saints and overcoming them for a time times and half a time. Then one like the son of man is given the kingdom and he is described like the glorified Christ. He destroys the pompous one he is given to the flame just like the beast in REv and it says all the other beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. This glorious son of man is given a dominion that never ends.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[fn] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’ When you look at Zech 14 again the LORD is declared king over all the earth in that day. This day is when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes and fights in that day. The LORD melts His enemies and the Mt of Olives splits in two and new rivers flow year round and new valleys with specific boundaries are formed. And then the nations that are left must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This passage is not an allegory but describes the day the kingdom comes. Dan 7 shows the beast losing dominion just like Satan in Rev he is bound, they are bound. There lives are prolonged for a season and a time. Satan is bound for 1000 years and released for a time. He creates on last rebellion and simply surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down and that is the end of the age. Note that when the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end the LORD aka the son of man is giving victory over evil that is prevailing at the time of His coming in Jerusalem. This is when the kingdom begins and the 1000 years beign. At the end of the 1000 years this kingdom does not end it inherits the new Jerusalem and the end is described completely different than that of what is occurring at teh 2nd coming.
Lastly the path to the 2nd coming includes the 7 year tribulation with the abomination of desolation in the middle of the time line. This occurs in a 3rd temple which is already planned for and the global government that is described for that time is forming before our eyes with a moral compass equal to that of Sodom. We are watching current events track over the literal path. This is the greatest proof that these things are still future because the math of compound probabilities would make this scenario impossible.

I'm on the same page with most of what you said here, so not all that you said here. I wouldn't be on the same page with you about a 3rd temple if that temple is involving a rebuilt one.