Questions about the REC

tbstor

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I have been doing some research into the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) and have some questions about the following excerpt from their Wikipedia page:

Although the REC was founded as an evangelical and Reformed Anglican body, it now has Anglo-Catholics among its members and has entered into an intercommunion agreement with an Anglo-Catholic body, the APA. A 2006 document of the REC bishops, "True Unity by the Cross of Christ", grants wider flexibility to re-interpret the Thirty-nine Articles in an Anglo-Catholic manner while maintaining the perspective of the English Reformers. It uses the terms "priest", "altar", and "Real Presence", and speaks of the authority of tradition as well as that of Holy Scripture.

Reformed critics characterize these developments as rejecting the 35 Articles, revising the force of the Declaration of Principles, as well as departing from the Church's evangelical and Reformed heritage in order to accommodate Anglo-Catholicism.​

I am not terribly familiar with Anglicanism in general. I have a pretty good idea of what "Anglo-Catholicism" would look like, but what are the significant differences between it and "reformed Anglicanism"? I initially started looking into the REC because I was interested in the Protestant/reformed orientation. My cursory searches haven't revealed any interesting primitive/reformed baptist or presbyterian congregations in my area. However, there is a local REC near to me. I spoke with the pastor and I didn't come away suspecting Catholic sympathies. Though I suppose that doesn't mean the REC as an organization isn't going in that direction.

Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated, particularly regarding the bolded portion of the excerpt.
 

Dansiph

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I have been doing some research into the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) and have some questions about the following excerpt from their Wikipedia page:

Although the REC was founded as an evangelical and Reformed Anglican body, it now has Anglo-Catholics among its members and has entered into an intercommunion agreement with an Anglo-Catholic body, the APA. A 2006 document of the REC bishops, "True Unity by the Cross of Christ", grants wider flexibility to re-interpret the Thirty-nine Articles in an Anglo-Catholic manner while maintaining the perspective of the English Reformers. It uses the terms "priest", "altar", and "Real Presence", and speaks of the authority of tradition as well as that of Holy Scripture.

Reformed critics characterize these developments as rejecting the 35 Articles, revising the force of the Declaration of Principles, as well as departing from the Church's evangelical and Reformed heritage in order to accommodate Anglo-Catholicism.​

I am not terribly familiar with Anglicanism in general. I have a pretty good idea of what "Anglo-Catholicism" would look like, but what are the significant differences between it and "reformed Anglicanism"? I initially started looking into the REC because I was interested in the Protestant/reformed orientation. My cursory searches haven't revealed any interesting primitive/reformed baptist or presbyterian congregations in my area. However, there is a local REC near to me. I spoke with the pastor and I didn't come away suspecting Catholic sympathies. Though I suppose that doesn't mean the REC as an organization isn't going in that direction.

Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated, particularly regarding the bolded portion of the excerpt.
I can't answer your question but are these "Calvinist" Anglicans? I'd heard of a similar denomination in the UK called The Free Church of England but I'd forgotten about it.
 
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tbstor

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I can't answer your question but are these "Calvinist" Anglicans? I'd heard of a similar denomination in the UK called The Free Church of England but I'd forgotten about it.
I believe they are, yes. Or they are at least sympathetic toward Calvinist doctrines. They are closely associated with the Free Church of England.
 
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Albion

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I have been doing some research into the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) and have some questions about the following excerpt from their Wikipedia page:

Although the REC was founded as an evangelical and Reformed Anglican body, it now has Anglo-Catholics among its members and has entered into an intercommunion agreement with an Anglo-Catholic body, the APA. A 2006 document of the REC bishops, "True Unity by the Cross of Christ", grants wider flexibility to re-interpret the Thirty-nine Articles in an Anglo-Catholic manner while maintaining the perspective of the English Reformers. It uses the terms "priest", "altar", and "Real Presence", and speaks of the authority of tradition as well as that of Holy Scripture.

Reformed critics characterize these developments as rejecting the 35 Articles, revising the force of the Declaration of Principles, as well as departing from the Church's evangelical and Reformed heritage in order to accommodate Anglo-Catholicism.​

I am not terribly familiar with Anglicanism in general. I have a pretty good idea of what "Anglo-Catholicism" would look like, but what are the significant differences between it and "reformed Anglicanism"? I initially started looking into the REC because I was interested in the Protestant/reformed orientation. My cursory searches haven't revealed any interesting primitive/reformed baptist or presbyterian congregations in my area. However, there is a local REC near to me. I spoke with the pastor and I didn't come away suspecting Catholic sympathies. Though I suppose that doesn't mean the REC as an organization isn't going in that direction.

Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated, particularly regarding the bolded portion of the excerpt.
The REC was, for over a hundred years, a "Low Church" and "Reformed" Anglican body. Recently, however, she made a strong move towards the Anglican mainstream, both in worship style and theology. That means moving towards Anglo-Catholicism in both.

However, only some of the clergy and congregations were agreeable to this development. You may well find some of the others nearby where you live and, if so, I would expect them to stay that way regardless of whatever intercommunion agreements or accommodations to Anglo-Catholicism the leadership of the church makes.

One way to get a handle on these matters is to look up the REC's former 35 Articles (instead of the 39 Articles of Religion) and read the Declaration of (Four) Principles (now apparently considered not to be authoritative). See here: Declaration of Principles - Reformed Episcopal Church

If you can find a copy, the book For the Union of Evangelical Christendom, by (REC) Bishop and Professor Allen C. Guelzo gives a thorough history of the church and its faith.
 
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Dansiph

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I believe they are, yes. Or they are at least sympathetic toward Calvinist doctrines. They are closely associated with the Free Church of England.
Ok thanks. I can't find much info about their Calvinist beliefs.
 
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Athanasius377

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I think @Albion 's reply is spot on. Allow me to add my two cents. I have looked into this issue for some time and I don't think I have a better answer but I suspect the REC's current stance is a course correction over the REC's initial almost reactionary stance on the development of Anglo-catholicism that arose in the middle of the 19th century. In my reading the Anglican church is a mildly reformed body with tendencies from Lutheranism and the broader reformed tradition and theology. I don't think you can go so far as to call this early body Calvinist but it is reformed as best I can tell reading the Anglican divines like Riddley, Cranmer and Lattimer but moves in a more broader catholic (historic use of the term not Roman) with likes of Hooker and Andrewes. At least that's my reading. Also recall something similar happened in Lutheranism betweent he Gnesio-Lutherans and the Phillpists that was resolved with the formula of Concord. At least thats what one of the signatories of the 2006 document told me. And for reference here is the Declaration of Principles of the REC:

Declaration of Principles

Of the Reformed Episcopal Church Adopted, December 2, 1873

I
The Reformed Episcopal Church, holding “the faith once delivered unto the saints,” declares its belief in the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the Word of God, and the sole Rule of Faith and Practice; in the Creed “commonly called the Apostles’ Creed;” in the Divine insti- tution of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper; and in the doctrines of grace substantially as they are set forth in the Thirty-nine

Articles of Religion.

II
This Church recognizes and adheres to Episcopacy, not as of Divine right,

but as a very ancient and desirable form of Church polity.

III
This Church, retaining a Liturgy which shall not be imperative or repressive of freedom in prayer, accepts The Book of Common Prayer, as it was revised, proposed, and recommended for use by the General Convention of the Protestant Episcopal Church, A. D. 1785, reserving full liberty to alter, abridge, enlarge, and amend the same, as may seem most conducive to the edification of the people, “provided that the

substance of the faith be kept entire.”

IV
This Church condemns and rejects the following erroneous and strange

doctrines as contrary to God’s Word:
First, That the Church of Christ exists only in one order or form of

ecclesiastical polity:
Second, That Christian Ministers are “priests” in another sense than

that in which all believers are a “royal priesthood:”
Third, That the Lord’s Table is an altar on which the oblation of the

Body and Blood of Christ is offered anew to the Father:
Fourth, That the Presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper is a presence

in the elements of Bread and Wine:
Fifth, That Regeneration is inseparably connected with Baptism.
 
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tbstor

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One way to get a handle on these matters is to look up the REC's former 35 Articles (instead of the 39 Articles of Religion) and read the Declaration of (Four) Principles (now apparently considered not to be authoritative). See here: Declaration of Principles - Reformed Episcopal Church

If you can find a copy, the book For the Union of Evangelical Christendom, by (REC) Bishop and Professor Allen C. Guelzo gives a thorough history of the church and its faith.
Thank you so much for typing this out! Really great stuff.


I don't think you can go so far as to call this early body Calvinist but it is reformed as best I can tell reading the Anglican divines like Riddley, Cranmer and Lattimer but moves in a more broader catholic (historic use of the term not Roman) with likes of Hooker and Andrewes.
Also excellent stuff, thank you. I did want to note that I specifically asked the pastor of the local REC what his stance was on something like TULIP. He said that, while it does have some merit within the 39 Articles, something like "limited atonement" is left open to the individual believer to consider (as the 39 Articles seem to have a less reformed view of the scope of Christ's work on the cross).
 
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Dansiph

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Thank you so much for typing this out! Really great stuff.



Also excellent stuff, thank you. I did want to note that I specifically asked the pastor of the local REC what his stance was on something like TULIP. He said that, while it does have some merit within the 39 Articles, something like "limited atonement" is left open to the individual believer to consider (as the 39 Articles seem to have a less reformed view of the scope of Christ's work on the cross).
I was wondering, what is the shield/heraldry thing on your signature?
 
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tbstor

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It is Ludwig von Mises' coat of arms and has been used by the Mises Institute:

The Mises Institute's coat of arms is that of the Mises family, awarded in 1881 when Ludwig von Mises's great-grandfather Mayer Rachmiel Mises was ennobled by the Emperor Franz Josef I of Austria. In the upper right-hand quadrant is the staff of Mercury, god of commerce and communication (the Mises family was successful in both; they were merchants and bankers). In the lower left-hand quadrant is a representation of the Ten Commandments. Mayer Rachmiel, as well as his father, presided over various Jewish cultural organizations in Lemberg, the city where Ludwig was born. The red banner displays the Rose of Sharon, which in the litany is one of the names given to the Blessed Mother, as well as the Stars of the Royal House of David, a symbol of the Jewish people. Ludwig's lifelong motto was from Virgil: tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
 
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Albion

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Thank you so much for typing this out! Really great stuff.
Hope it helps you. :oldthumbsup:

Also excellent stuff, thank you. I did want to note that I specifically asked the pastor of the local REC what his stance was on something like TULIP. He said that, while it does have some merit....

Yes. His answer isn't surprising, and I'd say to give him and that congregation a chance by attending services a few times before you reach any conclusion.

And although it's often been claimed, I think that the idea of the REC being "Calvinistic" with the TULIP points in evidence is an exaggeration.
 
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Athanasius377

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And although it's often been claimed, I think that the idea of the REC being "Calvinistic" with the TULIP points in evidence is an exaggeration.
Or as Fr Trueax said, we’re are not Presbyterians with a prayer book. Having experience with the REC I would describe them as prayer book only Christians. At least that’s been my experience. Recall that TULIP doesn’t speak for all reformed Christians. It doesn’t convey all the nuances that we would like. Theology is messy although we want it to be nice and tidy. At least that’s been my experience.

this isn’t only a reply to Albion.

I know my profile says Lutheran but I still pray the daily office and the BCP I use is the 2005 REC BCP. Mostly because the 1943 lectionary drives me nuts with how often a lesson is only one verse.
 
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Shane R

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I was talking to another priest recently who had extensive experience as a candidate for ordination with the REC (although that church was not ultimately who ordained him). He told me that the Declaration of Principles is mostly taken seriously only by congregations in Eastern PA and the surrounding area. Still, they have never repudiated although the college of bishops issued a statement a few years ago reinterpreting it in a way akin to the creativity Cardinal Newman used interpreting the Articles of Religion.
 
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Shane R

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Or as Fr Trueax said, we’re are not Presbyterians with a prayer book. Having experience with the REC I would describe them as prayer book only Christians. At least that’s been my experience. Recall that TULIP doesn’t speak for all reformed Christians. It doesn’t convey all the nuances that we would like. Theology is messy although we want it to be nice and tidy. At least that’s been my experience.

this isn’t only a reply to Albion.

I know my profile says Lutheran but I still pray the daily office and the BCP I use is the 2005 REC BCP. Mostly because the 1943 lectionary drives me nuts with how often a lesson is only one verse.
The lessons aren't one verse:p When the table provides a single verse that is the beginning but you are supposed to read to the end of the chapter. You took me back to my first liturgical training seminar with that. I didn't know either.
 
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Athanasius377

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The lessons aren't one verse:p When the table provides a single verse that is the beginning but you are supposed to read to the end of the chapter. You took me back to my first liturgical training seminar with that. I didn't know either.
I thought the same thing. But Commonprayer.org also had it as one verse so I thought that’s what was called for. In practice reading to the end of the chapter is what I did. Perhaps it was a glitch in the algorithm. Thanks for the Advice Fr.
 
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Athanasius377

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The lessons aren't one verse:p When the table provides a single verse that is the beginning but you are supposed to read to the end of the chapter. You took me back to my first liturgical training seminar with that. I didn't know either.
It was the IPray app that was doing it. I have an ancient iPad that I use sometimes. This is funny. Thanks for clearing it up. The daily office was not encouraged at my old parish.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It was the IPray app that was doing it. I have an ancient iPad that I use sometimes. This is funny. Thanks for clearing it up. The daily office was not encouraged at my old parish.
I use a copy of the Monastic Diurnal given to me by my LCC Pastor (all of the daily office except Matins). The way it is printed saves paper. There is a separate book for Matins, but is is almost three times bigger. I don't have that one.
 
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JohnT

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I am a 1980 graduate from their seminary when it was located at 42nd & Chestnut in Philadelphia. Then its unofficial nickname was "The poor man's Westminster".

Perhaps I can help you.
 
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JohnT

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Or as Fr Trueax said, we’re are not Presbyterians with a prayer book. Having experience with the REC I would describe them as prayer book only Christians. At least that’s been my experience. Recall that TULIP doesn’t speak for all reformed Christians. It doesn’t convey all the nuances that we would like. Theology is messy although we want it to be nice and tidy. At least that’s been my experience.

this isn’t only a reply to Albion.

I know my profile says Lutheran but I still pray the daily office and the BCP I use is the 2005 REC BCP. Mostly because the 1943 lectionary drives me nuts with how often a lesson is only one verse.

That is inaccurate. Indeed, they use the Book of Common Prayer to help guide worship services they are really a Bible centered church.

Admittance to their seminary requires affirmative answers to two questions:

  1. Do you believe the Bible to be fully inerrant in the original languages; the only rule for the faith and the practice?
  2. Will you test everything we teach you by that standard?
 
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Athanasius377

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That is inaccurate. Indeed, they use the Book of Common Prayer to help guide worship services they are really a Bible centered church.

Admittance to their seminary requires affirmative answers to two questions:

  1. Do you believe the Bible to be fully inerrant in the original languages; the only rule for the faith and the practice?
  2. Will you test everything we teach you by that standard?
Of course. So I was comparing my experience with the ACC where the priest used basically the Roman Missal in English. I like your description much better.
 
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