Questions about Saints

HoneyBee

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This question is for Episcopal folks :) Thank you.

So, I have two questions. My first question is, do some Episcopalians pray to saints for intercession like Catholics do (at least in my house)? And my second question is, when a person joins Christianity through the Episcopal tradition, do they take on the name of a saint too, like Catholics do?
 

Paidiske

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For question one, yes, some do; but I would say it is not really supposed to be an Anglican thing.

For question two... some do, I guess, especially if they're baptised and choose a new name. There's nothing to say they can't or shouldn't, but I would say it's not something that's routinely done, either. I certainly didn't.
 
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Catherineanne

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This question is for Episcopal folks :) Thank you.

So, I have two questions. My first question is, do some Episcopalians pray to saints for intercession like Catholics do (at least in my house)? And my second question is, when a person joins Christianity through the Episcopal tradition, do they take on the name of a saint too, like Catholics do?

Pray to saints? No. Ask saints to pray alongside us to God? Certainly. That is what the saints are for.

There is an option at Confirmation in higher Anglican churches to take a Confirmation name, which would be the name of a patron saint. I am not sure how common it is to actually do this. Given names used to be called 'Christian names' but this use has fallen out of favour, along with the tendency to stick to, well, Christian names.
 
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gordonhooker

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As an Anglican Franciscan third order brother it is common to ask the Saints to pray for us, just as it is to ask our local prayer chain to pray for us, so I am not sure where the Anglicans are not supposed to comes from. I was brought up in the Anglican High Church tradition and it has been a part of our church for those close on 66 years. Our closing prayer for our Franciscan daily Obedience prayer is:

May our blessed Lady pray for us.
May Saint Francis pray for us.
May Saint Clare pray for us.
May all the saints of the Third Order pray for us.
May the holy angels watch over us and befriend us.
May our Lord Jesus give us his blessing and his peace. Amen
 
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Paidiske

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It comes from the 39 Articles:

"The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."

I could not pray that prayer in good conscience.
 
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gordonhooker

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It comes from the 39 Articles:

"The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."

I could not pray that prayer in good conscience.

This is where we have a difference of opinion on what that means so I am not going to bother going there yet again.
 
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archer75

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It comes from the 39 Articles:

"The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."

I could not pray that prayer in good conscience.
Wow, this is news to me. I thought there was some way around that article, because around here there are plenty of Angelus prayers and things in "official" Episcopal worship.
 
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Albion

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Wow, this is news to me. I thought there was some way around that article, because around here there are plenty of Angelus prayers and things in "official" Episcopal worship.
The way around that article for Episcopalians who want to get around it or anything else in the Articles of Religion is to insist that the Articles are not normative but just something that got written up in the Sixteenth Century in order to address issues that were controversial at that time (but no longer).

However, the issue there was praying TO saints, not everything else about saints. Unlike many Protestant churches, Anglicans have no problem honoring the saints, asking God's mercy upon those who have passed on, and other such practices that might seem to outsiders to be more or less in line with Roman Catholic practice.
 
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Paidiske

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Wow, this is news to me. I thought there was some way around that article, because around here there are plenty of Angelus prayers and things in "official" Episcopal worship.

There are Anglicans who take a different view on what it means (see above), and who shape their own private prayers accordingly (or even public worship, unofficially). But I am not aware of anything officially authorised in my province which asks the saints to intercede for us.
 
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gordonhooker

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The way around that article for Episcopalians who want to get around it or anything else in the Articles of Religion is to insist that the Articles are not normative but just something that got written up in the Sixteenth Century in order to address issues that were controversial at that time (but no longer).

However, the issue there was praying TO saints, not everything else about saints. Unlike many Protestant churches, Anglicans have no problem honoring the saints, asking God's mercy upon those who have passed on, and other such practices that might seem to outsiders to be more or less in line with Roman Catholic practice.

I am not sure about get around it, but I do agree with you that the articles were written to address that were controversial in the Sixteenth Century. I also agree that praying to/worshiping the saints is not Anglican but I don't see an issue with asking them to pray for me, just as I ask my local prayer co-ordinator to pray for me and others from time to time.
 
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archer75

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It comes from the 39 Articles:

"The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."

I could not pray that prayer in good conscience.
Is it possible that this Article doesn't say that the invocation of Saints is a "fond thing vainly invented," but that the "Romish Doctrine" concerning it is vain? Some doctrine ABOUT prayer to saints that isn't referred to here?

I know everyone on the thread knows much more than I do - not imagining this is a new interpretation...just asking.
 
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Symphorian

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Invocation of Saints is not found in any authorised Church of England liturgies (BCP1662/Common Worship 2000). Most of the Collects for Sundays that we find in the Book of Common Prayer have come down from old Sacramentaries such as the Leonine, Gelasian and Gregorian Sacramentaries which date from the 5th/6th centuries. The English Reformers retained most of these these Collects, translating them from Latin to English. However, most of the Collects for Saints Days found in the BCP were mid 16th century compositions as the old Collects usually contained some reference to the merits or intercession of the Saints.

The practice of the Invocation of the Saints in the Church of England dates to the Ritualist movement of the latter half of the 19th century. A wide range of liturgical practices many now taken for granted were then highly controversial. Clergy were prosecuted under the Public Worship Regulation Act of 1874. (Practices such as the use of Eucharistic vestments, elevation of the host, use of incense, lighted candles on the Altar (especially the 'Big Six'), using unleavened wafer bread, veneration of the BVM, invocation of Saints...the list could go on).

During the Medieval period, the invocation of Saints led to much superstition. In England there were cases where even statues of Saints were credited with miraculous or supernatural powers. The English Reformers erred on the side of caution with regard to the invocation of Saints - they felt there was no scriptural warrant for the practice and that we can't be certain that the Saints in heaven have the ability to hear our prayers - this would give them God-like attributes.

Having said that, you may find practices such as the invocation of Saints in Anglican churches of more advanced Anglo-Catholic persuasion. I once attended a Forward in Faith church in the village where I then worked where at appropriate times of the year we sang the Litany of Saints. My Cathedral Church will often end the Intercessions on Marian feast days with the Hail Mary.
 
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Paidiske

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The parish where I served my first curacy used the litany of saints "St X and St Y, pray for us; St Z and St A, pray for us" etc. on Easter day.

I discussed it with my vicar and didn't participate in it. It really was a conscience issue for me.

Where I am now one of the people on the intercessors roster routinely finishes by asking for the prayers of the saints, and so far I've let it slide without comment because I have bigger fish to fry.

Oh, and welcome, Symphorian!
 
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gordonhooker

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Invocation of Saints is not found in any authorised Church of England liturgies (BCP1662/Common Worship 2000). Most of the Collects for Sundays that we find in the Book of Common Prayer have come down from old Sacramentaries such as the Leonine, Gelasian and Gregorian Sacramentaries which date from the 5th/6th centuries. The English Reformers retained most of these these Collects, translating them from Latin to English. However, most of the Collects for Saints Days found in the BCP were mid 16th century compositions as the old Collects usually contained some reference to the merits or intercession of the Saints.

The practice of the Invocation of the Saints in the Church of England dates to the Ritualist movement of the latter half of the 19th century. A wide range of liturgical practices many now taken for granted were then highly controversial. Clergy were prosecuted under the Public Worship Regulation Act of 1874. (Practices such as the use of Eucharistic vestments, elevation of the host, use of incense, lighted candles on the Altar (especially the 'Big Six'), using unleavened wafer bread, veneration of the BVM, invocation of Saints...the list could go on).

During the Medieval period, the invocation of Saints led to much superstition. In England there were cases where even statues of Saints were credited with miraculous or supernatural powers. The English Reformers erred on the side of caution with regard to the invocation of Saints - they felt there was no scriptural warrant for the practice and that we can't be certain that the Saints in heaven have the ability to hear our prayers - this would give them God-like attributes.

Having said that, you may find practices such as the invocation of Saints in Anglican churches of more advanced Anglo-Catholic persuasion. I once attended a Forward in Faith church in the village where I then worked where at appropriate times of the year we sang the Litany of Saints. My Cathedral Church will often end the Intercessions on Marian feast days with the Hail Mary.

Hi Symphorian and welcome to the forum.

Great post but I do have a question for you. When you say invocation of Saints what do you believe it means?
 
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Symphorian

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Hi Symphorian and welcome to the forum.

Great post but I do have a question for you. When you say invocation of Saints what do you believe it means?

Hi Gordon

Personally I believe that the invocation of Saints can simply refer to us asking for their intercession but Anglicans interpret the 39 Articles in different ways.

++Cranmer (and other Bishops) in 'The Institution of a Christian Man' (a.k.a. 'The Bishop's Book') of 1537 differentiates between the invocation of Saints for gifts that can only be granted by God (health of body/soul, forgiveness of sins, the gift of grace, everlasting life etc.) and simply asking the Saints to be intercessors for us and with us. Both are regarded as invocation: the former is regarded as crossing the line and yielding to a creature the honour of God whilst the latter is seen as lawful Catholic practice.

By the time the first BCP appeared in 1549 ++Cranmer seems to have changed his mind however as the Collects for Saints Days were rewritten to omit invocation entirely.

I have a great respect for the Saints. I live in Cornwall where we are surrounded by Saints - Celtic missionaries, (many of them female) who travelled between Ireland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany spreading the Gospel in the early years of the Church. Most of these Celtic missionaries were probably never officially canonised but are nevertheless 'Saints'.

In my private devotion I have no issue with asking a Saint for their intercession in prayers like the one from your Franciscan Office. When I visit nearby Truro Cathedral I often light a candle in front of the Madonna and Child, pray to God and end with the Ave. As a commissioned lay minister in the CofE however I don't include such prayers in public worship.
 
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Symphorian

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The parish where I served my first curacy used the litany of saints "St X and St Y, pray for us; St Z and St A, pray for us" etc. on Easter day.

I discussed it with my vicar and didn't participate in it. It really was a conscience issue for me.

Where I am now one of the people on the intercessors roster routinely finishes by asking for the prayers of the saints, and so far I've let it slide without comment because I have bigger fish to fry.

Oh, and welcome, Symphorian!

Yes. I remember the Litany of Saints......seemed to go on forever! The Rector of that particular church I attended was very partial to the English Missal. It was very Anglo-Catholic but has since gone down the candle a long way. I'm sure the former Rector would be horrified.

Thanks for the welcome.
 
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gordonhooker

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Hi Gordon

Personally I believe that the invocation of Saints can simply refer to us asking for their intercession but Anglicans interpret the 39 Articles in different ways.

++Cranmer (and other Bishops) in 'The Institution of a Christian Man' (a.k.a. 'The Bishop's Book') of 1537 differentiates between the invocation of Saints for gifts that can only be granted by God (health of body/soul, forgiveness of sins, the gift of grace, everlasting life etc.) and simply asking the Saints to be intercessors for us and with us. Both are regarded as invocation: the former is regarded as crossing the line and yielding to a creature the honour of God whilst the latter is seen as lawful Catholic practice.

By the time the first BCP appeared in 1549 ++Cranmer seems to have changed his mind however as the Collects for Saints Days were rewritten to omit invocation entirely.

I have a great respect for the Saints. I live in Cornwall where we are surrounded by Saints - Celtic missionaries, (many of them female) who travelled between Ireland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany spreading the Gospel in the early years of the Church. Most of these Celtic missionaries were probably never officially canonised but are nevertheless 'Saints'.

In my private devotion I have no issue with asking a Saint for their intercession in prayers like the one from your Franciscan Office. When I visit nearby Truro Cathedral I often light a candle in front of the Madonna and Child, pray to God and end with the Ave. As a commissioned lay minister in the CofE however I don't include such prayers in public worship.

Hi Symphorian,

I was brought up in a High Church of England parish here in Brisbane Australia, my local priest Keith Rayner taught me there was a difference between the invocation of a Saint and asking a Saint to pray for me/him/you whoever he explained it pretty much as you did above and that (health of body/soul, forgiveness of sins, the gift of grace, everlasting life etc.) and asking miracles of Saints was invocation (conjuring, chanting etc.) and asking the Saints to pray with us and for us was not invocation. So we are pretty much on the same page. I also am a licensed Liturgical Assistant (Reader in the CofE) and I would not include prayers such as our Community Obedience prayer in parish public worship either. I can understand why the invocation of Saints (as we described above) was included in the 39 Articles they were addressing an issue of the excesses of the Church at the time. In my opinion, I believe we have thrown the baby out with bath-water to an extent and I am glad there are pockets of High Churchman still about today.

Really enjoy your posts and I look forward to hearing from you again on this forum.

Blessings, Gordon
 
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