Mary Meg

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Don't look at people and saints.
Only look at Jesus and Bible , nothing more and nothing less.
Those saints are the Works of Holy Spirit ,nothing to do with them , nothing to admire at except admire at the Grace of Holy God.
As somebody who loves art, I would say the best way to honor a master is by admiring his works. If saints are the works of God's grace, doesn't it also honor God to admire His workmanship?
 
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rockytopva

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If you are going to follow somebody... Follow Jesus! And let him move you on as he sees fit!

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrews 12:2

 
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A_Thinker

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Good and great Christians -- So I've come to admire a lot of great people from the history of Christianity -- saints. That means they were holy people who are surely now enjoying God's glory in eternity. But my Protestant background tells me that no one is holy... But surely people go to heaven, right? Surely people can grow in sanctity and become more Christlike... I've seen that with my own eyes, and isn't that the point?
But if I admire Christians from the first dozen Christian centuries -- it turns out I'm admiring people who believed very differently than me, who believed in things like baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary, that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus... Does that mean they were less than Christian, for believing something beyond what's revealed in the Bible? Should I even admire them? As much as I admire them, I'm afraid these people would have told me I'm not a Christian since I don't believe those things. :anguished:
Being a good, or "great" christian isn't so much about what's in your head (i.e. doctrine/dogma) ... as it is about the LOVE (for God and others) in your heart.

As long as Jesus is at the helm, very much, very little, or very differing belief can still be used to motivate persons into being great representatives of His family.

Truly great christians would have never told you that you cannot be a christian because you don't believe every "jot and tittle" as they do. Truly great christians will always defer to the heart.
My Protestant background tells me that the Catholic Church went off the rails at some point in history. When? If I accept that these great saints -- it is what I want to call them -- were true believers, despite believing different things than me, then don't I also have to accept that the faith they had was true? And that the Church that was teaching them was teaching the true faith?
The corruption of a church is seen in its accommodation to sin within its ranks and leadership ... and resistance to the will of God, ... as opposed to having so-called heretical beliefs.

When the church, no matter what church, proceeded to murder, banish, and imprison those whose beliefs did not line up exactly with theirs, ... is when that church went off of the rails. When any church uses its gifts ... to curse humanity, rather than to bless, ... is evidence of derailment.

The greatest treason to Christ is when those of the "church" become un-Christlike in their practice. Then we become as the Pharisees ... who Christ said would cross land and sea to make one proselyte ... only to end up making him/her twice the child of hell as they are ...

Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
 
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A_Thinker

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Hi. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist church that my something-great-great-grandparents helped found. It's not really a great place for dynamic preaching or worship -- it's just my family and a few other families, sharing the love and Gospel of Christ. I love it for that, and in some way, it will always be home...

But as I've gotten older and learned things (maybe too much for my own good), I've started to have doubts and questions about a lot of things. I studied a lot of Christian history in school and Bible and theology and classical languages, and through all of that I've grown to feel a lot closer to the Early Church...... and honestly I've started to feel like it doesn't look all that much like my church today. :confused2:

I know the Protestant narrative very well... that the Catholic Church was corrupt, had fallen away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ, and needed Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation to come and bring us back to the true Gospel. And I've mostly been happy with my church and my upbringing and everything, just now I am wondering...

So I'm not sure I even know how to ask the questions I'm asking... How do I approach these things? Are there answers, and how can I find them? Where do I go from here? Or do I stay put?

Good and great Christians -- So I've come to admire a lot of great people from the history of Christianity -- saints. That means they were holy people who are surely now enjoying God's glory in eternity. But my Protestant background tells me that no one is holy... But surely people go to heaven, right? Surely people can grow in sanctity and become more Christlike... I've seen that with my own eyes, and isn't that the point?

But if I admire Christians from the first dozen Christian centuries -- it turns out I'm admiring people who believed very differently than me, who believed in things like baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary, that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus... Does that mean they were less than Christian, for believing something beyond what's revealed in the Bible? Should I even admire them? As much as I admire them, I'm afraid these people would have told me I'm not a Christian since I don't believe those things. :anguished:

My Protestant background tells me that the Catholic Church went off the rails at some point in history. When? If I accept that these great saints -- it is what I want to call them -- were true believers, despite believing different things than me, then don't I also have to accept that the faith they had was true? And that the Church that was teaching them was teaching the true faith? At the very least, that it wasn't as wholly corrupt at that time as the Protestant Reformation would have me believe it became -- to the point that breaking from it and starting over was warranted? That it must have gone off the rails sometime later? The problem is, the more people I admire, and the closer they get to 1517, the more I start to wonder if anything really could have gone off the rails very far...

(Don't even mention that I might admire Catholic saints after 1517... :fearscream:)

This is getting long and I haven't even gotten to half the things in my head... but I'll have to put a period here and maybe post again sometime.
The focus on BELIEF over LOVE ... is what made the scribes and Pharisees ineffective at best ... and murderous, at worst. It seems that many within Christendom have ignored Jesus' own description of a church turned to evil. I'm afraid many many turn rather a blind eye to this, His teaching ...

Matthew 23

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
 
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Mary Meg

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You have to study God’s Word on your own with the Lord. There should be no other voices programming you to believe something. In the early church it was different, they were forming the NT Scriptures.

I kind of have a problem with that. Where do we read that in the Bible -- that we're supposed to base our whole walk with God on "studying God's Word on our own"? Everything in the New Testament seems to be based on things that the Apostles taught firsthand and then appointing pastors (shepherds) and teachers -- and presbyters (elders) and bishops (overseers) -- to follow after them and continue teaching the faith. That doesn't sound like it's meant to be an "on your own with Jesus" kind of situation at all. Jesus Himself gives us the illustration of a flock -- and sheep in a flock aren't supposed to wander away on their own, but follow their shepherd.

They were also not in the last days time frame mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 like we are in.

I tend to think we have been in the last days since Jesus ascended to heaven and said He was coming back soon.
 
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Pioneer3mm

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Being a good, or "great" christian isn't so much about what's in your head (i.e. doctrine/dogma) ... as it is about the LOVE (for God and others) in your heart.

As long as Jesus is at the helm, very much, very little, or very differing belief can still be used to motivate persons into being great representatives of His family.

Truly great christians would have never told you that you cannot be a christian because you don't believe every "jot and tittle" as they do. Truly great christians will always defer to the heart.

The corruption of a church is seen in its accommodation to sin within its ranks and leadership ... and resistance to the will of God, ... as opposed to having so-called heretical beliefs.

When the church, no matter what church, proceeded to murder, banish, and imprison those whose beliefs did not line up exactly with theirs, ... is when that church went off of the rails. When any church uses its gifts ... to curse humanity, rather than to bless, ... is evidence of derailment.

The greatest treason to Christ is when those of the "church" become un-Christlike in their practice. Then we become as the Pharisees ... who Christ said would cross land and sea to make one proselyte ... only to end up making him/her twice the child of hell as they are ...

Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."

Good comment/point.
- Especially, about 'Pharisees' issue..
 
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FenderTL5

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As somebody who loves art, I would say the best way to honor a master is by admiring his works. If saints are the works of God's grace, doesn't it also honor God to admire His workmanship?
"Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
- Apostle Paul to the Church in Corinth -

..Where do we read that in the Bible -- that we're supposed to base our whole walk with God on "studying God's Word on our own"?
You don't.
The scriptures are permeated with references of the church/body collective. From the very beginning, the first thing God declares as "not good" was that of man being alone. A couple more brief examples; where two or three are gathered God is in the midst, do not forsake the gathering together... and as you already pointed out the Body of Christ is the Church.
That rugged individualism thing is opposed to Biblical teaching, and certainly not the historical understanding in Christianity. Note what I am NOT saying, I'm not saying there's any sort of prohibition to study on our own. We are and we should study scripture alone and together.
IMHO, This is a major advantage in the Liturgical churches where everyone is following a lectionary and reading/studying the same things at the same time.
Never buy into a notion that you are your own authority.
 
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FireDragon76

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I kind of have a problem with that. Where do we read that in the Bible -- that we're supposed to base our whole walk with God on "studying God's Word on our own"? Everything in the New Testament seems to be based on things that the Apostles taught firsthand and then appointing pastors (shepherds) and teachers -- and presbyters (elders) and bishops (overseers) -- to follow after them and continue teaching the faith. That doesn't sound like it's meant to be an "on your own with Jesus" kind of situation at all. Jesus Himself gives us the illustration of a flock -- and sheep in a flock aren't supposed to wander away on their own, but follow their shepherd.

I tend to think we have been in the last days since Jesus ascended to heaven and said He was coming back soon.

Be careful about not buying into a dangerous idealism. One can overreact to the sort of individualism being expressed here. You do not want to turn priests or pastors into gurus. It's always within your rights with God to insist that respect must be earned. That's why Jesus served the disciples at the Last Supper. Jesus came to serve you, and he expects no less of his pastors.

While we in my church value community (the community can help and guide you) it can't, and shouldn't live your life for you, and run far away from any religious group or pastor that insists it has that right.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hi. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist church that my something-great-great-grandparents helped found. It's not really a great place for dynamic preaching or worship -- it's just my family and a few other families, sharing the love and Gospel of Christ. I love it for that, and in some way, it will always be home...

But as I've gotten older and learned things (maybe too much for my own good), I've started to have doubts and questions about a lot of things. I studied a lot of Christian history in school and Bible and theology and classical languages, and through all of that I've grown to feel a lot closer to the Early Church...... and honestly I've started to feel like it doesn't look all that much like my church today. :confused2:

I know the Protestant narrative very well... that the Catholic Church was corrupt, had fallen away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ, and needed Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation to come and bring us back to the true Gospel. And I've mostly been happy with my church and my upbringing and everything, just now I am wondering...

So I'm not sure I even know how to ask the questions I'm asking... How do I approach these things? Are there answers, and how can I find them? Where do I go from here? Or do I stay put?

Good and great Christians -- So I've come to admire a lot of great people from the history of Christianity -- saints. That means they were holy people who are surely now enjoying God's glory in eternity. But my Protestant background tells me that no one is holy... But surely people go to heaven, right? Surely people can grow in sanctity and become more Christlike... I've seen that with my own eyes, and isn't that the point?

But if I admire Christians from the first dozen Christian centuries -- it turns out I'm admiring people who believed very differently than me, who believed in things like baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary, that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus... Does that mean they were less than Christian, for believing something beyond what's revealed in the Bible? Should I even admire them? As much as I admire them, I'm afraid these people would have told me I'm not a Christian since I don't believe those things. :anguished:

My Protestant background tells me that the Catholic Church went off the rails at some point in history. When? If I accept that these great saints -- it is what I want to call them -- were true believers, despite believing different things than me, then don't I also have to accept that the faith they had was true? And that the Church that was teaching them was teaching the true faith? At the very least, that it wasn't as wholly corrupt at that time as the Protestant Reformation would have me believe it became -- to the point that breaking from it and starting over was warranted? That it must have gone off the rails sometime later? The problem is, the more people I admire, and the closer they get to 1517, the more I start to wonder if anything really could have gone off the rails very far...

(Don't even mention that I might admire Catholic saints after 1517... :fearscream:)

This is getting long and I haven't even gotten to half the things in my head... but I'll have to put a period here and maybe post again sometime.

I don’t think it’s necessary to leave your church if you have different beliefs. I’ve also embraced more of the early church teachings rather that the Protestant teachings and yet my church teaches eternal security and faith alone. The reason I stay at my church is because I was saved at this church and I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is at work in the people attending the church. I can see their abundant love for God and for others and I have come to love my church family even tho we might have different beliefs on doctrine the outcome is still the same. So what if someone believes their salvation is secure or that they are saved by faith alone. As long as they keep walking in the Spirit these won’t matter. As far as the Catholic Church going off the rails in the past I would kindly point out that I believe you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church which was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1054AD. The apostolic Catholic Church adopted the name Orthodox at the same time Rome was excommunicated. If your interested in church history I would suggest looking into the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the East West Schism of 1054AD. I suggest first going to secular sources like britannica.com who are not partial to either side of the story and have an excellent reputation for only stating the facts. Here’s a link that will shed some light on the history of the Catholic Church that became the Orthodox Church.
https://www.britannica.com/eventSchism-of-1054


Pentarchy | Christianity
 
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BNR32FAN

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Reading writings from Christians primarily from the 1st Century is what mainly led me away from Protestantism. If those who were alive when the New Testament was written can't be trusted to provide us a context in which to understand the New Testament, then scholars a millennium and a half later are no more trustworthy.

What first century writings do we have other than St Ignatius’ letters? Are there more that I’m not aware of?
 
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FireDragon76

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What first century writings do we have other than St Ignatius’ letters? Are there more that I’m not aware of?

Lightfoot's The Apostolic Fathers is mostly first or second century writings.

Apostolic Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The Epistle of Barnabas is believed to be first century:

First Century Post-Apostolic Writings - Non-canonical writings, the Apostolic Fathers, the Epistle of Barnabas, Letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Didache, the early christian church
 
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lsume

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Hi. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist church that my something-great-great-grandparents helped found. It's not really a great place for dynamic preaching or worship -- it's just my family and a few other families, sharing the love and Gospel of Christ. I love it for that, and in some way, it will always be home...

But as I've gotten older and learned things (maybe too much for my own good), I've started to have doubts and questions about a lot of things. I studied a lot of Christian history in school and Bible and theology and classical languages, and through all of that I've grown to feel a lot closer to the Early Church...... and honestly I've started to feel like it doesn't look all that much like my church today. :confused2:

I know the Protestant narrative very well... that the Catholic Church was corrupt, had fallen away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ, and needed Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation to come and bring us back to the true Gospel. And I've mostly been happy with my church and my upbringing and everything, just now I am wondering...

So I'm not sure I even know how to ask the questions I'm asking... How do I approach these things? Are there answers, and how can I find them? Where do I go from here? Or do I stay put?

Good and great Christians -- So I've come to admire a lot of great people from the history of Christianity -- saints. That means they were holy people who are surely now enjoying God's glory in eternity. But my Protestant background tells me that no one is holy... But surely people go to heaven, right? Surely people can grow in sanctity and become more Christlike... I've seen that with my own eyes, and isn't that the point?

But if I admire Christians from the first dozen Christian centuries -- it turns out I'm admiring people who believed very differently than me, who believed in things like baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary, that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus... Does that mean they were less than Christian, for believing something beyond what's revealed in the Bible? Should I even admire them? As much as I admire them, I'm afraid these people would have told me I'm not a Christian since I don't believe those things. :anguished:

My Protestant background tells me that the Catholic Church went off the rails at some point in history. When? If I accept that these great saints -- it is what I want to call them -- were true believers, despite believing different things than me, then don't I also have to accept that the faith they had was true? And that the Church that was teaching them was teaching the true faith? At the very least, that it wasn't as wholly corrupt at that time as the Protestant Reformation would have me believe it became -- to the point that breaking from it and starting over was warranted? That it must have gone off the rails sometime later? The problem is, the more people I admire, and the closer they get to 1517, the more I start to wonder if anything really could have gone off the rails very far...

(Don't even mention that I might admire Catholic saints after 1517... :fearscream:)

This is getting long and I haven't even gotten to half the things in my head... but I'll have to put a period here and maybe post again sometime.
When some say the early church, I think of Pentecost. And no, todays religious organizations often don’t operate the way that entire congregations of Truly Born Again Christian’s behaved in assembly. Of course it wasn’t long if at all before the enemy was planting tares among the wheat. You might recall the story of Ananias and Sapphira. You should find the story in Acts 5.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don’t think it’s necessary to leave your church if you have different beliefs. I’ve also embraced more of the early church teachings rather that the Protestant teachings and yet my church teaches eternal security and faith alone.

With all respect to those of conscience that disagree with my way of being a Christian, yes, sometimes it is necessary to separate, even if it is tragic. Preaching and teaching matters. In my religious tradition, preaching is understood in a sacramental sense, it's one way God gives us his grace. If the teaching is bad, the grace will be absent, or there will be stumbling blocks presented.

One thing to keep in mind is that I do not subscribe to the modern, American view of free will in spiritual things. You should feel a genuine call to go to a particular church, it shouldn't be merely about settling for something you happen to find acceptable, ideally. And if I accept that, it's just prideful to think that I can go to church and have no duties there other than to "fellowship" with other people who happen to have the label "Christian" and believe in having warm feelings about Jesus/God. That's simply trivializing the experience. We are called to be a body and to help one another grow, not to be merely autonomous individuals according to the modern liberal/secular zeitgeist (something that many American evangelicals actually bought into a long time ago).
 
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Concord1968

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Or a Presbyterian or an Episcopalian? I'm surprised but I guess it could be so.
There HAS to be Pentecostals where she's from. I'm Southern and they're all over the South.
 
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Yes, but the point there concerned her idea that Protestants do not recognize saints like Catholics do, and I noted in reply that many Protestants actually do. But these are most often Lutherans, Episcopalians, and some others which, as she said, are not to be found near her home. Referring to Pentecostals, however, would not support my point, I do not think. ;)
 
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FireDragon76

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Well, "Protestants" where I come from means "Southern Baptists." :sweatsmile: I don't think I've ever met a Lutheran.

There are more Lutherans in the Carolinas, they were there historically, but otherwise they are uncommon in the South. But typically a large city will have a few congregations. As people have moved around the country, they have taken their religion with them and I think you will find a Lutheran church just about anywhere though you might have to drive some (there are over 9 million Americans that self-identify as Lutheran, so we aren't that small, we are one of the larger religious traditions in the US).

My pastor went to seminary in South Carolina, even though he's original from New Jersey. Wee typically use distinctly Lutherans seminaries for those called to ordained ministry, because our approach is so distinct from other forms of Protestantism.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yes!! When I read Church history the right way forwards -- starting from the beginning and reading to the Reformation rather than starting from the Reformation and then trying to skip back to the beginning -- I have a really hard time seeing where this "going off the rails" supposedly took place... It all seems like a direct line from the Apostles (albeit with some bumps and detours here and there) ... until the Protestant Reformation, which basically appears to be a train wreck.

I don't see the Reformation as a train wreck, I think that's not appreciating the history fully. Even from the Catholic perspective, I would think that would be overly simplistic. If anything, the Catholics were the big winners in the Reformation, as it stimulated a great deal of energy for renewal and missions.

The Reformation also lead to a newfound secularity, which in turn lead to scientific and cultural achievements that were simply not possible at a time when Europe was dominated by a centralized, magisterial religious institution.

I also think there's a dubious tendency at play here to only see the Church in terms of a hierarchical, magisterial institution, without seriously stopping to consider if that's really congruent with what the vision of Jesus really is about the Church.
 
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Greenlee

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I'm a Baptist Missionary. I lean theologically toward Presbyterianism, ecclesiologically toward Anglicanism, grew up super confused between a Lutheran and a Charismatic parent. I am, as a result, denominationally schizophrenic... or at least have been. I am with you that evangelical denominations are losing their saltiness, are to lax and irreverent toward the sacraments, fail to teach even the basics of theology, leaving generations of theologically unprepared young adults flailing in secular colleges. I think that the self-help, pop-psychology versions of evangelicalism are spiritually crippling, and that self-proclaimed prophets are an insult to the Holy Spirit.

I have way more questions than answers anymore, and I need help, but everyone seems to have a bias so deeply ingrained that i struggle to find someone who I am convinced comes at scripture from a completely objective and faithful angle.

So, I keep reading. I read really diverse stuff from Tim Keller, Sam Alberry, and N.T. Wright, to Francis Chan, David Platt, and John Piper. Okay, I guess it's not THAT diverse. :) I can recommend some books that have been helpful along my journey, if you like.
 
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HatGuy

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Hi. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist church that my something-great-great-grandparents helped found. It's not really a great place for dynamic preaching or worship -- it's just my family and a few other families, sharing the love and Gospel of Christ. I love it for that, and in some way, it will always be home...

But as I've gotten older and learned things (maybe too much for my own good), I've started to have doubts and questions about a lot of things. I studied a lot of Christian history in school and Bible and theology and classical languages, and through all of that I've grown to feel a lot closer to the Early Church...... and honestly I've started to feel like it doesn't look all that much like my church today. :confused2:

I know the Protestant narrative very well... that the Catholic Church was corrupt, had fallen away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ, and needed Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation to come and bring us back to the true Gospel. And I've mostly been happy with my church and my upbringing and everything, just now I am wondering...

So I'm not sure I even know how to ask the questions I'm asking... How do I approach these things? Are there answers, and how can I find them? Where do I go from here? Or do I stay put?

Good and great Christians -- So I've come to admire a lot of great people from the history of Christianity -- saints. That means they were holy people who are surely now enjoying God's glory in eternity. But my Protestant background tells me that no one is holy... But surely people go to heaven, right? Surely people can grow in sanctity and become more Christlike... I've seen that with my own eyes, and isn't that the point?

But if I admire Christians from the first dozen Christian centuries -- it turns out I'm admiring people who believed very differently than me, who believed in things like baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary, that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus... Does that mean they were less than Christian, for believing something beyond what's revealed in the Bible? Should I even admire them? As much as I admire them, I'm afraid these people would have told me I'm not a Christian since I don't believe those things. :anguished:

My Protestant background tells me that the Catholic Church went off the rails at some point in history. When? If I accept that these great saints -- it is what I want to call them -- were true believers, despite believing different things than me, then don't I also have to accept that the faith they had was true? And that the Church that was teaching them was teaching the true faith? At the very least, that it wasn't as wholly corrupt at that time as the Protestant Reformation would have me believe it became -- to the point that breaking from it and starting over was warranted? That it must have gone off the rails sometime later? The problem is, the more people I admire, and the closer they get to 1517, the more I start to wonder if anything really could have gone off the rails very far...

(Don't even mention that I might admire Catholic saints after 1517... :fearscream:)

This is getting long and I haven't even gotten to half the things in my head... but I'll have to put a period here and maybe post again sometime.
There are a ton of responses here, and mine will probably get lost in the wash, but like others, I think you can still be Protestant and line up to the 'early church' and a huge host of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and [fill in the blank] theology.

There is a stream of thought running through all of Christian thought and theology and practice, from all parts of the Church.

For a Christian - especially those of us seeking for greater clarity theologically and otherwise - part of our job is to try and integrate all of the different streams of Christian thought into a cohesive whole that we can live with.

I do think this sort of ecunemical approach is possible.

Someone good to read would be Thomas Oden. A Methodist, he sought to build an ecunemical theology that took into account the church fathers across the ages, and discover what he called a 'consensus' amongst Christian theologians, saints, etc. across the ages. This is called "Paleo-Orthodoxy".

Many years ago I was in a similar position to you, and I thought I would explore the Catholic Church. But I couldn't find myself agreeing with the Catholic Church on "faith alone". In fact, I think that "faith alone" makes you a better Catholic.

I have found that the best people in Christian Protestant history have tried to bring together different Christian approaches into some sort of cohesive whole. They've sought to integrate ideas. John Wesley borrowed heavily from Eastern Orthodox thinking. You'll find a lot of Wesleyan teaching actually brings Catholic and Eastern Orthodox ideas in, but in a particularly Protestant way (it often has a lot to do with language. Eastern Orthodox "theosis" and Wesleyan "entire sanctification" are not so far from each other). Luther himself, when you really study him, is actually a fantastic bridge between Protestant and Catholicism (Lutheranism really has a very rich theological history to draw from). The Anglican Divines are also very interesting to read.

I also admire a lot of the Catholic saints. Francis of Assisi, really great guy. Interestingly enough, though, as a Protestant I'm not a big fan of Augustine. But I think that's because I'm not Calvinist. And saying that, I must admit that since the Arminians are syncretists, they tend to borrow a lot of thought from Catholic and Eastern Orthodox sources.

Speaking about Baptists, I have found writers like F Leroy Forlines, who is an Arminian Baptist, particularly interesting (see his "Classical Arminianism" book). I'm not sure if your Baptist church is Calvinist or "Free Will" baptist, but when you actually look at the theology, it's interesting to see how things come together.

I'm probably a little bit at an advantage after years of searching. What I'm saying is that when you spend long enough in different sources, you eventually start to see patterns emerging. You learn different ways to put things, but you find that ultimately many people from different sources of the Church are saying the same thing, just in different ways. This is encouraging and greatly enriches your faith. If you're open about where you're at, and willing to explore, and just go slowly (no need to leave your community, really), you'll probably find fresh meaning to your own Baptist roots and, who knows, perhaps you're called there to blow fresh wind into it.
 
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HatGuy

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I'm a Baptist Missionary. I lean theologically toward Presbyterianism, ecclesiologically toward Anglicanism, grew up super confused between a Lutheran and a Charismatic parent. I am, as a result, denominationally schizophrenic... or at least have been. I am with you that evangelical denominations are losing their saltiness, are to lax and irreverent toward the sacraments, fail to teach even the basics of theology, leaving generations of theologically unprepared young adults flailing in secular colleges. I think that the self-help, pop-psychology versions of evangelicalism are spiritually crippling, and that self-proclaimed prophets are an insult to the Holy Spirit.

I have way more questions than answers anymore, and I need help, but everyone seems to have a bias so deeply ingrained that i struggle to find someone who I am convinced comes at scripture from a completely objective and faithful angle.

So, I keep reading. I read really diverse stuff from Tim Keller, Sam Alberry, and N.T. Wright, to Francis Chan, David Platt, and John Piper. Okay, I guess it's not THAT diverse. :) I can recommend some books that have been helpful along my journey, if you like.
Sound like a kindred spirit dude :)
 
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