question

[StillGods]

for calvinists what is so terrible/terrifying about people having freewill?

 

[New Birth]

for calvinists what is so terrible/terrifying about people having freewill?

I dont think they believe its terrible or terrifying. I believe they take the foreknowledge of God as things are foreordained. Such as all that will be saved will inevitably find their way to God. On the other hand others believe God does have foreknowledge of all things but does not foreordain all things. Thus leaving you and I will a choice. "God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance."

 

[tampasteve]

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[Radagast]

for calvinists what is so terrible/terrifying about people having freewill?

Calvinists believe in free will.

Calvinists also believe in God's foreknowledge and predestination, so the kind of free will we believe in is compatibilist free will.

 

[Jonaitis]

for calvinists what is so terrible/terrifying about people having freewill?

It depends on what we are talking about. Are we talking about an a will autonomous from divine sovereignty, or are we talking about a will that is free from the corruption of original sin? As Radagast noted, we do believe in compatibilism, that divine sovereignty and man's responsibility do not conflict with each other. However, if we are talking about the kind of will that Adam had at first, before he fell from that original righteousness and state of innocence, then we deny that it is free, but rather enslaved to sin and completely corrupted. Calvinism historically focused more of this kind of will when "free will" is talked about, although the discussion of a libertarian will was also debated.

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689, Chapter 9 on "Free Will" states:

1. God has endowed human will with natural liberty and power to act on choices so that it is neither forced nor inherently bound by nature to do good or evil. (Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19).

2. Humanity in the state of innocence had freedom and power to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Yet this condition was unstable, so that humanity could fall from it (Genesis 3:6).

3. Humanity, by falling into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability to choose any spiritual good that accompanies salvation (Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7). Thus, people in their natural state are absolutely opposed to spiritual good and dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1, 5), so that they cannot convert themselves by their own strength or prepare themselves for conversion (Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44).

4. When God converts sinners and transforms them into the state of grace, he frees them from their natural bondage to sin (Colossians 1:13; John 8:36) and by his grace alone enables them to will and to do freely what is spiritually good (Philippians 2:13). Yet because of their remaining corruption, they do not perfectly nor exclusively will what is good but also will what is evil (Romans 7:15. 18. 19, 21, 23).

5. Only in the state of glory is the will made perfectly and unchangeably free toward good alone (Ephesians 4:13).

 

[Jonaitis]

I believe they take the foreknowledge of God as things are foreordained.

In Calvinism, foreknowledge is understood to be the same as personally known or loved beforehand, rather than foreseeing into the future. Whenever foreknowledge is used in Scripture, it is always in relation to a person, rather than what the person does. God foreknew his elect, and saved them in that love he had for them before they were born. We are commanded in Scripture to grow in the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, and this is not talking about mere information (2 Peter 3:18, etc).

"We love because he first loved us." - 1 John 4:19

 

[twin1954]

I dont think they believe its terrible or terrifying. I believe they take the foreknowledge of God as things are foreordained. Such as all that will be saved will inevitably find their way to God. On the other hand others believe God does have foreknowledge of all things but does not foreordain all things. Thus leaving you and I will a choice. "God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance."

This is an area for Calvinists to answer questions. If you are not a Calvinist please refrain from giving an answer.

I recognize that you are new here and haven’t yet got the hang of things. So in order to not get jumped on please read the rules for each forum you go into. Thank you.

Sorry I hadn’t gotten to the next post yet when I responded.

 

[twin1954]

While we are not robots or puppets on a string but we are absolutely under the control of a sovereign God.

Before the world began God, in His great wisdom and love, ordained everything that comes to pass for the glory of His name and the good of His people.

He ordained where and to who we would be born, every influence and circumstances we would encounter and even our choices based on those influences and circumstances. We willingly do exactly as He has purposed for us. Otherwise everything would be left to fickle fate.

To say that God foresees the choices we make through foreknowledge is to make God changeable. He saw what we would do and acts accordingly. That simply isn’t the God of the Bible.

Hope that helps answer your question.

 

[StillGods]

so for Calvinist if we can make our own choices of our own freewill that makes God not Sovereign ie it threatens a Calvinists idea of who God is.

 

[twin1954]

so for Calvinist if we can make our own choices of our own freewill that makes God not Sovereign ie it threatens a Calvinists idea of who God is.

If you had read what I said then that would not be your response. I explained that we make our own choices according to our will but that those choices are all ordained of God. Moreover it isn’t our “idea” of who God is but what He has clearly revealed of Himself in the Scriptures.

Man’s will is a slave to his nature. Hence man in his natural state can only choose sin. The seeming “good” that he does he does for selfish reasons. Read Rom. 3. Her. 17:9 says that the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked and we don’t know it.

Now if you came in here to ask us a legitimate question then actually think on the answers. If you came here to argue and put words in our mouths, as your response does, then we will waste no more time with you.

 

[Jonaitis]

so for Calvinist if we can make our own choices of our own freewill that makes God not Sovereign ie it threatens a Calvinists idea of who God is.

No, it doesn't.

God's decrees do not violate the personal will of the creature, but rather establishes it.

 

[JM]

for calvinists what is so terrible/terrifying about people having freewill?

I think we are afraid that it'll jump out and save us. (kidding)

 

[StillGods]

If you had read what I said then that would not be your response. I explained that we make our own choices according to our will but that those choices are all ordained of God. Moreover it isn’t our “idea” of who God is but what He has clearly revealed of Himself in the Scriptures.

Man’s will is a slave to his nature. Hence man in his natural state can only choose sin. The seeming “good” that he does he does for selfish reasons. Read Rom. 3. Her. 17:9 says that the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked and we don’t know it.

Now if you came in here to ask us a legitimate question then actually think on the answers. If you came here to argue and put words in our mouths, as your response does, then we will waste no more time with you.

just trying to understand because calvinism is confusing

 

[twin1954]

just trying to understand because calvinism is confusing

It is actually the least confusing and most logical theology because it doesn’t rely on snippets of bIble passages and out of context proof texts. It puts man where he belongs in the dust at the feet of Christ begging mercy. I will do my best to help you understand. The best way to grasp the whole is to start with the parts. If you want we can begin with total depravity. Let me know.

 

[StillGods]

It is actually the least confusing and most logical theology because it doesn’t rely on snippets of bIble passages and out of context proof texts. It puts man where he belongs in the dust at the feet of Christ begging mercy. I will do my best to help you understand. The best way to grasp the whole is to start with the parts. If you want we can begin with total depravity. Let me know.

thanks for the offer but it's too difficult to understand.

I am saved by the blood of Jesus shed on the Cross for my sins because He loves me and Praise God that salvation is open to any who would believe. I believe in Jesus so I'm saved that's all I need to know.
Amazing Grace that saved a wretch like me.

God delivered me from things I thought would never be gone and if He can do that for one such as me He can do that for anyone. I did not deserve His Mercy and His Grace, I still do not and yet He continues to pour out His Incredible Unconditional Love.
It is Amazing to me.

I'm not sure that Calvinism adds anything to my relationship with God but confusion at this point. God made it very easy, believe and be saved. I believe so what else is there really.

every time I try to understand Calvinism it is yeah just confusing and odd to me and I've been in a calvinist church for ages now. so if I was going to convert to Calvinism I would have by now I think.

thanks
all the best.

 

[twin1954]

thanks for the offer but it's too difficult to understand.

I am saved by the blood of Jesus shed on the Cross for my sins because He loves me and Praise God that salvation is open to any who would believe. I believe in Jesus so I'm saved that's all I need to know.
Amazing Grace that saved a wretch like me.

God delivered me from things I thought would never be gone and if He can do that for one such as me He can do that for anyone. I did not deserve His Mercy and His Grace, I still do not and yet He continues to pour out His Incredible Unconditional Love.
It is Amazing to me.

I'm not sure that Calvinism adds anything to my relationship with God but confusion at this point. God made it very easy, believe and be saved. I believe so what else is there really.

every time I try to understand Calvinism it is yeah just confusing and odd to me and I've been in a calvinist church for ages now. so if I was going to convert to Calvinism I would have by now I think.

thanks
all the best.

You speak as though you are a Calvinist. Simply look to Christ alone and the rest will come as you read His word.

I never seek or try to make a Calvinist out of anyone. Calvinism is not salvation. What good does it do to change one theology for another? I simply let the Word speak by the Spirit. But I am here and willing to try and answer any questions you may have. PM me if you want to.