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Chewbacha
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Theologically: Christ.

Evidentially: Catholics (along with Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) content that the historical evidence shows a visible institutional Church whose epistemological model was and is based on Councils and bishops, and not Sola Scriptura. Catholics further contend that the historical evidence also shows a role of supremacy for the Pope.
 
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MrPolo

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Ditto on Christ passing His authority to the Apostles who passed their authority to successive bishops. From there it helps to study the nature of an "office" in Scripture, the charisms associated with the occupant of the office, and then determine who occupies those offices today.
 
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Erose

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From where do you get this information and why doyou consider it authoritative?
We get this information from history, Sacred Tradition, evidence of the Early Church Fathers, and Sacred Scripture. Paul said to Timothy in 1st Tim 3: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. Likewise Jesus tells His Apostles in Matthew 28: [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Jesus through His Apostles established a community of believers, which is what we call the Church, and those believes went out preaching and baptizing everywhere that would listen to them. Along the way the Apostles established other churches in other communities and left them leaders (bishops) to shepherd that flock and when the bishop dies or moves on another Christian is called to take his place. This has been happening for 2000 years and it is called the Catholic church. Historically every bishop can trace their predecessors all the way back to the Apostles and as such there is historical evidence that tells us that the Catholic church is what was founded on the day of Pentecost nearly 2000 years ago. That the Apostles where the first bishops and Peter being the first pope.
 
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MrPolo

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From where do you get this information and why doyou consider it authoritative?

Church history, the blood of the martyrs, the testimony of the early Church, the historicity of the Resurrection, the miracles through today, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy about offices, Mary, the Church, the coherence of Catholic interpretation in the context of all of revelation, etc...etc... History is a signpost to the Church.
From there, as Cardinal Newman once wrote: "For directly you have a conviction that you ought to believe, reason has done its part, and what is wanted for faith is, not proof, but will."
 
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To crib a response fron CalfironiaJosiah - The Catholic Church believes in Papal Infallibility because the Catholic Church believes in Papal Infallibility. It is accountable to no standard other than itself for its dogma. it is completely self-authenticating.

One can trot pit all sorts of history and argue until one is blue in the face about it, but at the end of the day, this (as well as all other dogmas and doctrines) teaching of the Catholic Church is simply believed because the Catholic Church believes it. If you do not accept this teaching with complete docility, then you cannot be Catholic.
 
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MrPolo

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the Catholic Church believes in Papal Infallibility. It is accountable to no standard other than itself for its dogma. it is completely self-authenticating
Uh-huh. And Jesus agreed with Jesus. And the Apostles agreed with the Apostles. By all means, pretend you have discredited Catholicism because it shares characteristics with Jesus and the Apostles. Promote the idea loud and proud. Thanks in advance.
 
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Uh-huh. And Jesus agreed with Jesus. And the Apostles agreed with the Apostles. By all means, pretend you have discredited Catholicism because it shares characteristics with Jesus and the Apostles. Promote the idea loud and proud. Thanks in advance.

Countless times Jesus cited the Law and the Prophets as His authority. I do not recall any instance where He said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you . . . . because verily, verily I have said it." Likewise the Aposltes, particular Paul, peter, and John who wrote the majority of the epistles, are extremely liberal in their citations from the Law and the Prophets concerning their teachings. The only exception might be in I Corinthians where Paul definitely tells his readers that it is his opinion, not the Lord's.

The RCC, by contrast, has evolved its own Tradition which it uses to buttress various dogmas and doctrines which are unique to its Tradition. Papal infallibility happens to be one of those.
 
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Dark_Lite

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To crib a response fron CalfironiaJosiah - The Catholic Church believes in Papal Infallibility because the Catholic Church believes in Papal Infallibility. It is accountable to no standard other than itself for its dogma. it is completely self-authenticating.

One can trot pit all sorts of history and argue until one is blue in the face about it, but at the end of the day, this (as well as all other dogmas and doctrines) teaching of the Catholic Church is simply believed because the Catholic Church believes it. If you do not accept this teaching with complete docility, then you cannot be Catholic.

Well when what you say is true no matter what, then obviously it must just be true no matter what. That's the easiest way to refute anything. Just ignore all argumentation and say that "it's so because I say so." Bonus points are gained for not providing anything to back up that assertion.
 
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Erose

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Countless times Jesus cited the Law and the Prophets as His authority. I do not recall any instance where He said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you . . . . because verily, verily I have said it." Likewise the Aposltes, particular Paul, peter, and John who wrote the majority of the epistles, are extremely liberal in their citations from the Law and the Prophets concerning their teachings. The only exception might be in I Corinthians where Paul definitely tells his readers that it is his opinion, not the Lord's.

The RCC, by contrast, has evolved its own Tradition which it uses to buttress various dogmas and doctrines which are unique to its Tradition. Papal infallibility happens to be one of those.
So you are saying that Jesus got all of His authority for the OT? I thought He got His authority from His Father? Also isn't there instances that Jesus did things outside the Law and the Prophets such as forgiving sin or changing the passover into the Lord's Supper?

The Catholic Church has always claimed that it gets its authority from Jesus Christ. It isn't an authority onto itself and never claimed to be. My church's authority is exclusively from Jesus Christ.
 
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Erose

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The RCC doctrine of Infallibility was pronounced at the First Vatican Council (1969-1870). There is no scriptural basis for the dogma but rests on the idea that Christ somehow 'willed' such infallibility to the church.
So you don't believe in the infallibility of Scripture either?
 
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So you are saying that Jesus got all of His authority for the OT? I thought He got His authority from His Father? Also isn't there instances that Jesus did things outside the Law and the Prophets such as forgiving sin or changing the passover into the Lord's Supper?

The Catholic Church has always claimed that it gets its authority from Jesus Christ. It isn't an authority onto itself and never claimed to be. My church's authority is exclusively from Jesus Christ.

The difference is that Jesus rested His authority upon the Father and the Father's revelation to His people, Israel. He said that He did not speak on His own authority, but that of the Father (John 8:28,29). He proved that He could forgive sin by accomplishing attesting miracles. He enacted a new covenant by taking elements from the Passover seder and using them to that end. The new covenant had been prophesied. It was not a reformed seder, but a new covenant.

The Catholic Church acts as its own authority, claiming to have received that authority through Peter, from Jesus Christ. It has no basis for many of its dogmas and doctrines from either scripture or ecumenical Tradition, but has claimed authority based upon a specious argument that it has that authority. There are no attesting miracles to substantiat that authority. For example, for centuries it claimed the power to physically transform bread into human flesh and wine into human blood. It is now patently evident that these claims were, and are false. On its own authority it now declares that the bread does actually become flesh and the wine actually becomes blood, although not physical flesh and blood. The result is that one of the foundational attesting miracles claimed by the Catholic Church on its own authority is now perplexing, at best, and a sham, at worst.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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By the same token, by what authority do we Protestants believe that the Bible is authoritative?



While I agree must point to an "authority", there's a fundamental difference.

The RCC, EOC and LDS point to SELF.
SELF is the authority, SELF is infallible/unaccountable (conditionally), SELF is the voice of God, SELF is the vicar of God. SELF points to the ONE self sees in the mirror, "THAT'S the Authority!"

This epistemology is distinctively and fundamentally different than pointing to a rule/norm OUTSIDE, ABOVE and BEYOND self - such as Scripture.


One is circular: "I'm the authority so I will point to what I like and I will interpret it and I ergo declare that I'm the authority."

The other is linear: We will point to an objective, knowable, mutually embraced authority OUTSIDE and ABOVE self.


But yes - in each case, there is an unproved but embraced Authority. The difference is whether it's self designating self or self submitting to an authority outside and above self.





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Dark_Lite

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The Catholic Church acts as its own authority, claiming to have received that authority through Peter, from Jesus Christ. It has no basis for many of its dogmas and doctrines from either scripture or ecumenical Tradition, but has claimed authority based upon a specious argument that it has that authority. There are no attesting miracles to substantiat that authority. For example, for centuries it claimed the power to physically transform bread into human flesh and wine into human blood. It is now patently evident that these claims were, and are false. On its own authority it now declares that the bread does actually become flesh and the wine actually becomes blood, although not physical flesh and blood. The result is that one of the foundational attesting miracles claimed by the Catholic Church on its own authority is now perplexing, at best, and a sham, at worst.

Incorrect.

Tradition is "accountable" to history. Tradition pulls from the Councils, the ECFs, the canon, the decrees of bishops. In fact, that's what it IS. Tradition is accountable to what came before it. All beliefs have a basis in the Councils and history, and eventually all the way back to the beginning of Christianity.

I'm not even going to comment on the misrepresentation of the Real Presence, because you should know the teachings on it at this point. It's an essence change, not a substance change.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Incorrect.

Tradition is "accountable" to history. Tradition pulls from the Councils, the ECFs, the canon, the decrees of bishops. In fact, that's what it IS. Tradition is accountable to what came before it.

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Incorrect.

RCC Tradition is regarded by itself as divine revelation to be embraced as such and with EQUAL regard with Scripture.

The "history" and "Councils" and "RCC Fathers" and "RCC Canons" and "RCC Popes" and "RCC Bishops" to which you speak are just the RCC looking to the RCC, rather moot since the RCC declares that the RCC can't be wrong (in these matters). The RCC looks to the RCC. It often says that it looks like itself; not TOO surprising.





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Dark_Lite

Chewbacha
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Incorrect.

RCC Tradition is regarded by itself as divine revelation to be embraced as such and with EQUAL regard with Scripture.

And?

The "history" and "Councils" and "RCC Fathers" and "RCC Canons" and "RCC Popes" and "RCC Bishops" to which you speak are just the RCC looking to the RCC, rather moot since the RCC declares that the RCC can't be wrong (in these matters). The RCC looks to the RCC. It often says that it looks like itself; not TOO surprising.

Peddle that misunderstanding as much as you want. It's not going to change the real world. And stop subtly trying to twist my words. It's annoying and borders on the sad. I did not say Catholic bishops or Fathers. I very specifically said what I meant to say. Divergence within the one Tradition of the Church occurs via schism. Simply because there is divergence does not mean that each group is accountable only to itself and pretending not to be so. All of them interpret the same wellspring of unchanging information. Schisms arise from different interpretations (sounds almost like Protestantism). But given the length of time the apostolic Churches have been around and the amount of schism that has occurred (2 times: Oriental Orthodox and Great Schism) vs the amount of schism Protestantism has, we can see which is the stronger system for preserving unity.
 
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