[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']What I dont understand is why when someone is discussing their reasons for not supporting homosexuality and includes Biblical sources for support of one (or more) of those reasons, do those that support homosexuality began ranting about what the Bible says about stealing, loving thy neighbor, and other Biblical statements on other issues. I could understand the inclusion of Biblical verses on stealing if the discussion was about stealing etc, but since its about homosexuality and someones interpretation of the Bible on that issue, isnt it more prudent to only quote the Bible on homosexuality (the basis of the conversation)? I guess Im missing the connection of stealing(for example), and whether or not homosexuality is sanctioned by God. The only purpose I see to go off on another issue is to attempt to confuse the speaker, as it certainly does not weaken ones point that God and the Bible do not support homosexuality. Rather, I would say it strengthens it by showing the weakness of the other persons support for homosexuality; strawman fallacies never work. It seems to me that if one was trying to impose a counter argument to Gods disapproval of homosexuality through the Bible, it would benefit that person to counter with a direct Biblical quote that states Gods approval of homosexuality. If that cannot be found then it would behoove the person to stop bringing in other Biblical issues and concede that if one is basing their view of homosexuality on Christianity and the Bible then homosexuality is not an acceptable way of life for Christians. [/font]
I personally usually avoid that particular argument because it feels too much like an indirect
ad hominen, but it is a valid point. The three verses in Paul's letters that are cited as condemning homosexuality simply list a number of sins, treating all of them as equally sufficient in God's eyes to merit death. And in all three cases, Paul's reason for listing
all of the sins is two-fold.
One, to point out that everyone sins, and no one can follow the Law. So what if you avoid murder? You still gossip. So what if you didn't steal? You still lied. So what if you are not an
arsenokoites? You are still an alcoholic. Everyone is condemned under the Law, and needs the Grace available through Jesus' sacrifice.
And two, to show that no one can condemn another without condemning himself. All three Pauline passages make this point:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Romans 1:18-2:3
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:4-11
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Timothy 1:5-15
There are also other Biblical passages which, while not mentioning sexual sins specifically, also warn about a judgmental attitude toward our fellow sinners.
For example in James' letter (James 2:8-13 and James 4:11-12)
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
............
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
And then there are the well-known passages from the Gospels: Matthew 1:1-5 and John 8:3-11
And so to single out one sin, no matter how vile it seems to you,and treat those who commit it as somehow different from other sinners goes against the very passages that are quoted condemn those sinners. And make no mistake, gays are treated differently. Every church has members in good standing who are notorious gossips, who are malicious manipulators of other people, who are semi-openly (everyone knows about it but no one wants to bring it up but the gossips) unfaithful in their marriages. And all of them are as unrepentant in their sins as they claim that gays are just by being gay.