Question: Where do you start, God's Word or God's heart?

[topher694]

Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Now, I realize that the two are intimately interconnected, but I'm asking as a matter of practicality, what do you think is the more effective place to start to look for answers to the difficult questions.

I'm not asking for me, I'm already pretty firm in what I believe, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts/approaches on the matter.

 

[Tolworth John]

When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

All we know about God is found in the bible so the only place we can look to for guidance is the bible.

 

[Mr. M]

Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Unless the doctrinal question or dilemma evolves around the interpretation of scripture, I can't see
concerning myself. On the other hand, when there are conflicting views in the interpretation of
God's Word, I don't look to man's teaching, I ask the Holy Spirit. He has never failed to put my
mind at ease with a sound understanding, or a setting aside of the dispute as unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 2:
10 God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes,
the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,
that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

 

[sawdust]

Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Now, I realize that the two are intimately interconnected, but I'm asking as a matter of practicality, what do you think is the more effective place to start to look for answers to the difficult questions.

I'm not asking for me, I'm already pretty firm in what I believe, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts/approaches on the matter.

How can you know God's heart if you don't know His word? One can't base God's heart on one's own heart.

Jer.17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Psalm 119 is a great place to start for your answer.

v.11 I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.
v.105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

 

[topher694]

How can you know God's heart if you don't know His word? One can't base God's heart on one's own heart.

Jer.17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Psalm 119 is a great place to start for your answer.

v.11 I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.
v.105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

That's why I said they are interconnected. For the sake of this question let's say the individual has been a Christian long enough to have a decent enough understanding of the Word so that they also have a decent enough understanding of His heart.

 

[sawdust]

I ask the Holy Spirit. He has never failed to put my mind at ease with a sound understanding

And may I ask if that sound understanding is rooted in the word?

The reason I ask is because when I was a new Christian a Mormon fellow basically said the same thing you said here in that "when in doubt ask the Holy Spirit and He will set your mind at rest". At the time I knew nothing and had no answer I just knew there was something a bit off about what he was saying.

Eventually I came to learn that when I did ask it was the word that came to me for the Holy Spirit only takes the things of Christ who is the word. Ergo, if you don't know the word, you won't get an answer.

 

[Soyeong]

Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Now, I realize that the two are intimately interconnected, but I'm asking as a matter of practicality, what do you think is the more effective place to start to look for answers to the difficult questions.

I'm not asking for me, I'm already pretty firm in what I believe, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts/approaches on the matter.

The purpose of God's word is to reveal God's heart. Any instance of someone saying that we should pick God's heart instead of God's word would imply that the are aspects of God's word that aren't in accordance with God's heart.

 

[topher694]

The purpose of God's word is to reveal God's heart. Any instance of someone saying that we should pick God's heart instead of God's word would imply that the are aspects of God's word that aren't in accordance with God's heart.

Atheists quote God's word all the time in ways that clearly don't line up with His heart... how do you reconcile that?

 

[Mr. M]

How can you know God's heart if you don't know His word? One can't base God's heart on one's own heart.

Here's the thing dust. Anybody can pick up a Bible and claim to know God's Word. Cult leaders
use the Bible all the time. David Koresh, for example, lived in Israel for awhile and studied
Hebrew before he founded the Branch Davidian cult in Texas. His followers believed mostly in
his interpretation of the book of Revelation. This is why the Son of God came, and He is called
the logos theos. This is normally translated the Word of God, as in "the Word of God became
flesh and dwelt among us". A better understanding of this is to say that the Torah told man what
God said, the Son came to tell us what He meant. This is what John is saying in 1 John 5:20;
The Son of God has come to give us comprehension. Most translations say, "an understanding".
Compare the word used to other places where understanding is translated, you will see a different
word. This is much of what Jesus is doing in the sermon on the mount; "You have heard that it was
said to those of old....but I say to you that...
I will stop here to allow some feedback, and close out by saying that we can only know the heart
of God by the Holy Spirit He has given us. As I mentioned in post#3

1 Corinthians 2:
10 God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes,
the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,
that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

 

[public hermit]

The scriptures are the authoritative rule for Christian faith and practice. But the idea that every theological/doctrinal/moral delimma or question we encounter is going to be settled by the scriptures is naive and untenable. If that were the case there would be no questions or dilemmas because the answers would be so obviously answered in the scriptures that the life span of a dilemma would only last as long as it took to find a passage.

Moreover, Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That would be the same Spirit that guided the writing of the scriptures. I can understand needing the scriptures for understanding theology and doctrine. But as far as moral dilemmas, if the Siprit ain't speaking to us, reading the bible isn't going to be much help. How hard is it to understand we are to love as Christ has loved us? That's a heart issue that no amount of head knowledge can fix. The Spirit is the heart of God in us.

 

[sawdust]

That's why I said they are interconnected. For the sake of this question let's say the individual has been a Christian long enough to have a decent enough understanding of the Word so that they also have a decent enough understanding of His heart.

It might be a decent amount but if one is still scratching their head on something then obviously one doesn't know the word enough or one wouldn't be in doubt.

Heb.11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

And faith comes from the word. No word, no faith.

Rom.10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Find the place you have faith (assurance and conviction) and rest in that place. The Lord will lead you forward as you continue to study and apply His word.

 

[Mr. M]

And may I ask if that sound understanding is rooted in the word?

Definitely, as I said, if the point of discussion isn't centered on the scriptures, why bother?
The asking is based on the scriptures you are reading and meditating on. The answer typically
comes when I am lead to another passage of the Bible, that bears witness to the one in question,
so that "at the mouth of two of three witnesses every matter can be established". 2 Corinthians 13:1

 

[Mr. M]

The purpose of God's word is to reveal God's heart. Any instance of someone saying that we should pick God's heart instead of God's word would imply that the are aspects of God's word that aren't in accordance with God's heart.

I would have to say that the scriptures teach us that the Holy Spirit reveals God's heart, in
the reading of His Word.
2 Corinthians 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look
steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading
of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[Soyeong]

Atheists quote God's word all the time in ways that clearly don't line up with His heart... how do you reconcile that?

By what standard can we use to determine that God's word is not in accordance with God's heart? How could someone deny that God's word is in accordance with God's heart without also denying the truth of God's word? People can misunderstand God's word, but the solution is to gain a correct understanding of it, not to deny that it is God's heart.

 

[Sidon]

Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Go here :

Starting or re-starting your Discipleship.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Now, I realize that the two are intimately interconnected, but I'm asking as a matter of practicality, what do you think is the more effective place to start to look for answers to the difficult questions.

I'm not asking for me, I'm already pretty firm in what I believe, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts/approaches on the matter.

Kind of both. Some priority may be given to the Word since it is a bit more objective, But there is a certain amount of "Spirit of the Law" out rules the Letter of it.


1) For myself a lot of this has to do with things that are a kind of mystical theology.

One of the big things I'm concerned with are things known as "Economy of Religion".
Economy (religion) - Wikipedia

Which has to do with how God acts with humanity, when it comes to how he seems to act in general, the nature of the commandments and rituals and ordinances he institutes.


While this kind of the Providence of Classical Christianity, as far as Church Fathers etc. goes the first person who really got me into this was a WOF pastor who noticed that even though God is omnisciencent he seems to ask a lot of Questions of people, and composed a sermon reflecting on why he thought that was.



2) My Systematic Theology Class of 1996

On the Spirit of the Law I had a major water shed event taking the theology class. The basic notion of the spirit of the Law I learned as a Lutheran kid in Catechism, maybe even Sunday school. But the interesting point made in the theology class was the professor pointing out that there are some people that are so conservative when it comes to the issue of divorce and what Jesus says about it that they urge people to stay in abusive marriages! That kind of surprised me, as a person whose previous chosen career was mental health / counseling etc. I basically accepted that was a kind of deal breaker based on "common sense", intuition etc. and almost did not have it in mind that people could be so conservative in their stance on things that they might go to far with it.


Since that event, I had another thing that popped up where a friend, a Messianic rabbi (also in the Charismatic movement) had this wife that was abusive to him for 20 years, including spousal abuse like breaking some of his bones, and her fidelity was also in question, and she had a lot of symptoms where I think she probably would be diagnosed with Narcistic Personality Disorder. Anyway my friend suffered a lot of grief from his church folk, because he eventually had a kind of Word of Wisdom where God ordered him to finally divorce his wife after spending years trying to placate, negotiate etc. And this got a lot of flack from his church folk quoting the Bible at him etc. but it likewise was a kind of watershed event when it came to the basic meaning, theology etc. around marriage, especially the nature of covenant etc. It's one of those things where a person can be so focused on a specific tree that they can't see the forest.



3) I actually think their are a lot of cultural things in the back of our mind concerning what we assume about the Bible and how it should be used. I tried to do a thread on that, but it went over like a lead balloon.


Independent Contractors for Christ (limitations of utilitarian Ecclesiology)

 

[Mr. M]

The scriptures are the authoritative rule for Christian faith and practice. But the idea that every theological/doctrinal/moral delimma or question we encounter is going to be settled by the scriptures is naive and untenable. If that were the case there would be no questions or dilemmas because the answers would be so obviously answered in the scriptures that the life span of a dilemma would only last as long as it took to find a passage.

Moreover, Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That would be the same Spirit that guided the writing of the scriptures. I can understand needing the scriptures for understanding theology and doctrine. But as far as moral dilemmas, if the Spirit ain't speaking to us, reading the bible isn't going to be much help. How hard is it to understand we are to love as Christ has loved us? That's a heart issue that no amount of head knowledge can fix. The Spirit is the heart of God in us.

The perfect Law of liberty is based on liberty of conscience
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 8:
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol,
until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do
not eat are we the worse.
9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those
who are weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience
of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience,
you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make
my brother stumble.
1 Corinthians 10:
25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake;
26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”
27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat
whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake.
28 But if anyone says to you, This was offered to idols, do not eat it for the sake of the one
who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”
29 Conscience, I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience?
30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,
33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many,
that they may be saved.

Acts 24:16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense
toward God and men.

I am astounded by how often I see people argue justification by faith and not by works
of the Law, a teaching of Paul, and fail to see that this is rooted in his teaching on the
conscience, and the Holy Spirit working in our heart. Knowing the Law certainly benefits
the Holy Spirit in convicting our conscience, which is why this same Paul taught that "all
scripture is profitable".(2 Timothy 3:16). We must know how to rely on the Holy Spirit
conviction of conscience to settle matters of moral dilemma.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
there is liberty.

 

[Sidon]

the professor pointing out that there are some people that are so conservative when it comes to the issue of divorce and what Jesus says about it that they urge people to stay in abusive marriages! That kind of surprised me, and almost did not have it in mind that people could be so conservative in their stance on things that they might go to far with it.

.

Within religion, there are the self righteous.

Within Christianity there are the self righteous, and the "made Righteous".

What this means, is that one group is trying to provide God with their works , or their performance, as their "faith".... so that He accepts them (they believe), and the other Group is resting in God's Grace, understanding that they are always "made righteous" by the same Blood of Jesus that saved them on the day they trusted Him and God accepted their faith to give them the new birth.

So, within these 2 groups, the way they filter the bible, is based on ...are they self righteousness theologians, or are they "made righteousness" theologians.

If "self righteous" then they will be very judgmental and see the bible as a rule book that takes no prisoners and is only "black and white".

If "made righteous", then they will see the world and themselves through the eyes of God's mercy, and the bible they will realize is God's love letter and THE Light for life.

If you talk to these 2 types about "divorce and remarriage", the self righteousness will quickly damn the person who is remarried, using about 2 verses to try to do the damage, and they will enjoy it.
See, that is the interesting thing about the self righteous...is that you'll notice they receive a joy to their flesh as they excitedly attempt to talk a believer out of their eternal salvation, or by trying to convince a remarried Christian couple into the false idea that they are living in sin.

2 very different FRUIT being committed, and both born again.

The Made Righteous, will tell the newly remarried that God is the God of the endless 2nd Chance, (Grace and Mercy), and will encourage the newly remarried to Grow in God's Grace, and be happy together.

 

[sawdust]

Here's the thing dust. Anybody can pick up a Bible and claim to know God's Word. Cult leaders
use the Bible all the time. David Koresh, for example, lived in Israel for awhile and studied
Hebrew before he founded the Branch Davidian cult in Texas. His followers believed mostly in
his interpretation of the book of Revelation. This is why the Son of God came, and He is called
the logos theos. This is normally translated the Word of God, as in "the Word of God became
flesh and dwelt among us". A better understanding of this is to say that the Torah told man what
God said, the Son came to tell us what He meant. This is what John is saying in 1 John 5:20;
The Son of God has come to give us comprehension. Most translations say, "an understanding".
Compare the word used to other places where understanding is translated, you will see a different
word. This is much of what Jesus is doing in the sermon on the mount; "You have heard that it was
said to those of old....but I say to you that...
I will stop here to allow some feedback, and close out by saying that we can only know the heart
of God by the Holy Spirit He has given us. As I mentioned in post#3

I completely agree with what you say. My difficulty lies more in terminology when people start using head and heart. In today's understanding, issues of the "heart" are more about how you feel about something. But in the scriptures heart is about what you think at the core of your being and this is based on what you believe to be intrinsically true and value.

The scripture (NT) uses the terms gnosis and epignosis to differentiate between the type of knowledge you talk about above and the type of knowledge that leads to understanding through faith. As I like to say "I don't just believe the Bible, I live it". At least that is what I try to do and why I study the word so I can indeed live the life Christ came to give us and not simply be a "hearer". (Jm.1:22)

ps. Just wanted to add that all epignosis has to begin with gnosis. You can have gnosis without epignosis but you can't have epignosis without gnosis.

 

[Mr. M]

ps. Just wanted to add that all epignosis has to begin with gnosis. You can have gnosis without epignosis but you can't have epignosis with gnosis.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us epignosis,(I prefer comprehension over understanding) that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him
who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

 

[eleos1954]

Atheists quote God's word all the time in ways that clearly don't line up with His heart... how do you reconcile that?

So do Christians ;o)

It's difficult to reconcile different points of view ... sometimes impossible. Depends on the point of view one is coming from in the first place.

Prayer .... my friend .... pray