Question to Creationists (and IDers..)

[USincognito]

For evidence agaist Evolution;
If Evolution were true, and we have been evolving for roughly the last 3,500 million years,

Right, from unicellular to what we see today over 3.5 billion years. This "astounding" rate of evolution in comparison to the "reasonable" rate of evolution where one "antelope kind" produces desendants as varied as the Dik-Dik, Springbok, Pronghorn, Okapi, Eland, Moose and Giraffe in 4,000 years as required by YECism.

and only in the past 1.6 million years we have had humans (erect)...

Actually non-homo anthropoids that walked in a stooped or erect position probably existed 2-5 million years ago. Considering the neck evolution alone that natural selection had to make since the Flood 4,000 years ago to create Dik-Diks and Giraffes, then walking upright in 3 million years shouldn't be a hurdle for you.

...and modern animals in somthing like 250-300 million

What? We have "modern" fish dating back 750 million years. We have "modern" insects dating back 600 million years. We have modern tetrapods dating back 400 million years. The vertebrate conquest of the land was well underway by 250-300 million years ago with extant animal (and plant btw, most Creationists forget them) legacy species having their ancestors living in that time.

...and yet we have only a handful of sharply contested "missing links" to make up for 3,200 million years!

Which transitional fossils are "sharply contested" (other than by Creationists who don't find them comfortable)? I'll tell you what, let's narrow the scope down to less than 2 million years, and limit our focus to homo fossils and you give me one good reason why:
1. Turkana Boy should be "contested" and
2. Why Turkana Boy doesn't represent an archaic and "ape like" homo fossil find.

3,000 million years, why this large gap, where are the missing 80% of the fossils we should see? I know that few animals reach fossilization, so let us make it 50%. Where are these fossils?

Since I smoke, I prefer to light my straw men on fire, and not beat them down, but unfortunately neither method of dispatching them is conducive to honest debate.

 

[Merlin]

>>I would say the mind.
It may not be as concrete/scientific as you personally prefer. But that would be my answer.

>Do you mean the soul or just conciousness?

I am not referring to the soul specifically.
But it is hard for me (sometime) to separate the two in discussion, since I believe that the mind is a property of the soul.

 

[Asimis]

I am not referring to the soul specifically.
But it is hard for me (sometime) to separate the two in discussion, since I believe that the mind is a property of the soul.

Well this is an area which I have not explored yet unfortunely. Perhaps someone who has may jump in with some comment. Now, I hold as a tenet of faith that Evolution does not produces the human soul, it is directly created by God. But I think that conciousness as we see in animals arose thru Evolution, just not to the level of the human mind.

But this is a good subject, I may dwelve deeper into it after I get some time.


As.

 

[truth above all else]

For evidence agaist Evolution;
If Evolution were true, and we have been evolving for roughly the last 3,500 million years, and only in the past 1.6 million years we have had humans (erect), and modern animals in somthing like 250-300 million, and yet we have only a handful of sharply contested "missing links" to make up for 3,200 million years!

3,000 million years, why this large gap, where are the missing 80% of the fossils we should see? I know that few animals reach fossilization, so let us make it 50%. Where are these fossils?

This is the biggest question I have.

one of the prime difficulties is that significant human fossil skulls are exceptionally rare, everything that has been found to date could be tucked away in a large coffin

 

[Asimis]

everything that has been found to date could be tucked away in a large coffin

This is not true.

http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC030.html

Also, as I told RightWingGirl. The amount of fossils is not relevant. What is relevant is what fossils are found and where. So far all fossils that have been found confirm the predictions of Evolution.


As.

 

[BananaSlug]

I find it amusing that most of the arguments against evolution are based in personal incredulity, which stems from a total misunderstanding of what evolution is about.
Remember people, evidence against evolution should never begin with "I feel that... or I can't believe that..."

 

[Asimis]

I find it amusing that most of the arguments against evolution are based in personal incredulity, which stems from a total misunderstanding of what evolution is about.
Remember people, evidence against evolution should never begin with "I feel that... or I can't believe that..."

Most of the complains about Evolution do seem to follow that line. Or simply an appeal to "lack" of evidence when 1-the evidence is not lacking or 2-the evidence that is lacking is irrelavant to Evolution or not predicted by it.

That is why I started this thread. I want to see evidence against Evolution not claims about lack of evidence.



As.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That is why I started this thread. I want to see evidence against Evolution not claims about lack of evidence.

While I wholeheartidly concur with evolution, I'm gonna play Devil's advocate and think of some possible arguments against it . Forgive any little comments in it, it ain't meant to be serious xD

1) Why would single celled organisms, undeniably the best at reproduction, need to evolve? Surely 2-, 3-, and more -celled organisms are going to be less suited to passing on genetic information to the next generation (Warp 2, engage)?

2) How come, in the 130000 years since homo sapiens first reared its deformed mullet, have we not evolved further? Hundred thirty thousand years seems ample time to grow some extra features.

3) Where is the rest of the Hominid family?

4) Can evolution explain the abundence of Φ in the natural world (cellular proportions, butterfly wing spans, galactic ratios)? ID can.
Can evolution explain the mind, the soul, the intellect? ID can.
Can evolution explain why all humans relate to divinity (i.e., have considered, or belive in, something supernatural), why all cultures have included, and most often been heavily influenced by, a local spiritual belief system? ID can.

X) Evolution is just a theory, not a fact (sorry, sorry, had to put it)

 

[Asimis]

1) Why would single celled organisms, undeniably the best at reproduction, need to evolve? Surely 2-, 3-, and more -celled organisms are going to be less suited to passing on genetic information to the next generation (Warp 2, engage)?

Probably the result of some selection preasure in the enviroment or even a random mutation that turned out to be beneficial. Also bear in mind that Evolution is not concerned about what an organism "needs", it doesn't works that way.

2) How come, in the 130000 years since homo sapiens first reared its deformed mullet, have we not evolved further? Hundred thirty thousand years seems ample time to grow some extra features.

Maybe, but the whole Evolutionary history is filled with such examples. Sometimes Evolution happens slowly and other times it happens quickly. There may be many factors as to why a species remains in evolutionary stasis.

3) Where is the rest of the Hominid family?

Fossil preservation is rare and there have been many extinctions, so we should not expect to find the whole Hominid family unfortunely.

Can evolution explain the mind, the soul, the intellect? ID can.

Well, as I mentioned earlier I am not really familiar with this subject, perhaps somebody else can jump in with some comments. But how does ID explains this?

Can evolution explain why all humans relate to divinity (i.e., have considered, or belive in, something supernatural), why all cultures have included, and most often been heavily influenced by, a local spiritual belief system? ID can.

My comments above apply to this as well.


As.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Probably the result of some selection preasure in the enviroment or even a random mutation that turned out to be beneficial. Also bear in mind that Evolution is not concerned about what an organism "needs", it doesn't works that way.

I know evolution doesn't tend to the organisms needs. Where did I imply that?

Maybe, but the whole Evolutionary history is filled with such examples. Sometimes Evolution happens slowly and other times it happens quickly. There may be many factors as to why a species remains in evolutionary stasis.

Tbh, I always imagined it happening at an average rate (dispite the fact that I know about the Cambrian explosian etc). Interesting.

Fossil preservation is rare and there have been many extinctions, so we should not expect to find the whole Hominid family unfortunely.

I was referring to living specimens. Why have they all died out, dispite surviving long enough to spawn a whole new species? Competition springs to mind, but are there any other factors?

Well, as I mentioned earlier I am not really familiar with this subject, perhaps somebody else can jump in with some comments. But how does ID explains this?

ID gives us the ability to explain the asofyet unexplainable with the term 'Designer'. We were designed with a mind.

 

[Rut]

Hei!

If you had to point out a single piece of evidence that you think debunks Evolution, what would it be? Or lack of evidence if you will. Also, What do you consider to be the strongest piece of evidence in support of Creationism(ID)?

Thanks.


As.

Biggest evidence that we have been created are written in the Bible.1 Cor 14:33.A house can`t come up from a big bang That must somebody that can think have made.So how can "we" the earth and everything come up with a big bang.We,earth etc are much more wonderful then a house.See how comlicated we human being are.So that must have been done of a intelligent
if you undestand what I mean.

 

[Asimis]

Hei!



Biggest evidence that we have been created are written in the Bible.1 Cor 14:33.A house can`t come up from a big bang That must somebody that can think have made.So how can "we" the earth and everything come up with a big bang.We,earth etc are much more wonderful then a house.See how comlicated we human being are.So that must have been done of a intelligent
if you undestand what I mean.

Hi rut,

I agree and only God could have made it. But Evolution tells us how he made it, it does not excludes God. Evolution is the Intelligent Design so to speak.


As.

 

[Asimis]

I know evolution doesn't tend to the organisms needs. Where did I imply that?

I know you are playinf devil's advocate, so I am just playing along.

I was referring to living specimens. Why have they all died out, dispite surviving long enough to spawn a whole new species? Competition springs to mind, but are there any other factors?

I don't know, natural distasters are another mind and they also bring about mass extinctions. There are many factors that make this happen.

ID gives us the ability to explain the asofyet unexplainable with the term 'Designer'. We were designed with a mind.

But it says nothing as to HOW it occured, Evolution does this. Evolution can explain the mind, now I personally hold that it cannot explain the human soul.


As.


As.

 

[USincognito]

A house can`t come up from a big bang

The Big Bang theory actually validates Chrisitian theology so I don't know why so many Creationists are so averse to it. Coming back to the question of evolution, since evolutionary theory doesn't say an explosion created extant life, how is this germaine to the topic?

That must somebody that can think have made.

You're missing some words in this sentence. Did you spill cola on your keyboard lately?

So how can "we" the earth and everything come up with a big bang.We,earth etc are much more wonderful then a house.See how comlicated we human being are.So that must have been done of a intelligent
if you undestand what I mean.

But life isn't a house, or a car or a 747. And how about I accede that life originated via God, how then does Creationism/ID address why life - after it's advent - appear to have evolved? How does ID address issues like the human throat, bidpedalism causing bad backs or all the junk DNA in our supposedly "intelligently designed" bodies?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Evolution is not equal or in comparison with Creation. Creation is the act in which the universe came into being. Evolution is mankind's description of processes that are presented in the Creation.

Evolution does not equal atheism nor does Creationism equal anti-evolution. Evolution can and does take on a life of its own when people interprete the evidence in certain ways...same for Creationism which to me is the only similarity between the two.

 

[Rut]

Hei!

For me and for others for example Francis Crick Jastrow are Big Bang a cosmic explosion.A explosion can`t make order it`s only make a mess.If you shall have a explosion you must have some substance to make that.For example:In 1953 Stanley Miller sent a electrical spark through a atmosphere of hydrogen, metan, amoniak and water steam.What happen? Only four aminosyre was created and we know about 20.Still haven`t human being could created more.So even that shows for me that must be a very intelligent that have created everything.

Now I remeber the Bible scripture when I told about a house Hebr 3:4

I can talk for ever about this subject because I have a really good book that talk about these things.So now I suppose I must stop

Rut

 

[nvxplorer]

Hei!

For me and for others for example Francis Crick Jastrow are Big Bang a cosmic explosion.A explosion can`t make order it`s only make a mess.If you shall have a explosion you must have some substance to make that.

The big bang wasn’t an explosion. Even of it were, it’s irrelevant. Heavy elements are formed by exploding stars. Here we see order from an explosion. Every element in our bodies was once part of a star that went supernova.

For example:In 1953 Stanley Miller sent a electrical spark through a atmosphere of hydrogen, metan, amoniak and water steam.What happen? Only four aminosyre was created and we know about 20.Still haven`t human being could created more.So even that shows for me that must be a very intelligent that have created everything.

Amino acids occur naturally outside the earth. What purpose would an intelligent designer have in creating amino acids on meteorites?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

[The] Big Bang [is] a cosmic explosion. [An] explosion can`t make order [it] only makes a mess.

1) The Big Bang wasn't an explosion. An explosion is matter being expelled by a higher internal pressure. BB is simply the expansion of the space-time continuum, with matter, anti-matter, (possibly) dark matter, and lots of other junk coming along for the ride.
2) Explosions can make order. If you explode something, does it stay chaotic and disorderly? The fires subside, and things settle down. Given the sparse circumstances of the early universe, small things were attracted to each others masses more easier, and so clumps of matter formed (after the matter - antimatter war ended) and things began to react in detail. But I digress.

If you shall have a explosion you must have some substance to make that.For example:In 1953 Stanley Miller sent a electrical spark through a atmosphere of hydrogen, metan, amoniak and water steam.What happen? Only four aminosyre was created and we know about 20.Still haven`t human being could created more.So even that shows for me that must be a very intelligent that have created everything.

3) The fact that a scientist in the 1950's didn't create all known amino acids in one attempt is irrelevent. Think about the conditions upon which those known aminos orginiated: Untold millions of lightning strikes must have struck the primordial Earth, and untold trillions of molecules would have reacted and re-reacted in many, many ways. This went of for millions of years. In all that time, isn't it possible, especially considering the advent of self-improving systems (ie Life), that 20 different amino acids have been formed?

I can talk for ever about this subject because I have a really good book that talk about these things.

Please do. This place is soley dedicated to such discussion.

So now I suppose I must stop

Umm... don't?

 

[USincognito]

Rut, is English not your native language? If so, then we might have a better idea of how to discuss approaching this issue with you.

 

[Rut]

Hei!

Rut, is English not your native language? If so, then we might have a better idea of how to discuss approaching this issue with you.

My native language is Swedish.

Rut