dzheremi

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Hi everybody,

I didn't want to derail the other thread, but it made me wonder about something sort of related to it (particularlu Buzuxi02's point about there being no hymns or commemorations for particular Western saints, even if they're within the time when they could be recognized): How would you respond to the idea that as Western saints and churches were "next door", so to speak, to Greek-speaking churches in North Africa, the Easterners are painting an unrealistic picture of the influence of Western saints on the East?

The argument goes something like this: it is unrealistic to suppose that the Latins and the Greeks (and Copts, Syrians, etc.) would not have been in contact with each other and hence exchanged theological ideas and influenced each other when there were clearly a mix of Latins and all of these other peoples in North Africa, and some of the Latin saints like St. Augustine are recognized in the Eastern Church. So it is wrong to downplay them by saying "Yes, they're a saint, but XYZ" (complaints about how they differ from the Greeks). It makes it seem like everyone lived in hermetically-sealed bubbles where no one could influence each other, when that's not true, or that they're somehow "lesser" saints because they're not Eastern.

Basically it's an idea that Easterners (by which they usually mean you guys, not my communion, who are generally an afterthought, but the case is made concerning saints we hold in common anyway) are so into the 'Greekness' of their Christianity that they don't want to admit Western influence when it should be there because the Latins were a big part of early Christianity, particularly in North Africa.

I know my response to that (and it's primarily as a linguist, not a Coptic Orthodox Christian; Latin was not an important language in Egypt outside of perhaps the military in some respects; the available epigraphical evidence shows that it was incredibly restricted; there's an essay that touches on this in the book Multilingualism in the Graeco-Roman Worlds, edited by Alex Mullen and Patrick James and published by Cambridge a few years ago, but it's late here and my eyes are tired so I don't want to look for it), and that it's hogwash, but it did make me wonder in relation to the other thread, because of course there are plenty of Latin saints who we in the Coptic Orthodox Church do recognize with entries in the synaxarium, hymns, icons, etc. One of our most famous monasteries in the Monastery of the Romans (Deir El Baramous), in reference to the saints St. Maximus and St. Domatius, the children of the Roman emperor Valentinian. It seems like the Coptic Orthodox Church for its part does quite a bit of praising of the Roman saints we see as Orthodox. Heck, I don't remember even hearing about HH St. Pope Felix when I was actually Roman Catholic, but he's there in our synaxarium.

So I don't know what it is the Western churches want. Recognition that they too were in Africa? That seems obvious, but is it not also the case that the Councils of Carthage were her own (not presided over by or attended by Easterners)?

I don't know. I don't hear this argument all the time or anything, but it's one I have heard and I feel I have been largely unsuccessful in explaining why it is incorrect, because simply repeating "That's not how it was; read this essay on the cultural and linguistic situation in Egypt in the fourth and fifth centuries" tends to make people's eyes glaze over, so I figured I'd ask you all how you'd tackle it.

Thanks.
 

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That's above my knowledge really.

I can just offer what I suspect most or all of you know already, and that is that I find "local" devotions to Saints. Depending on what island in Greece a family is from, or other little things like that, they will have particular love for certain Saints, without even being particularly aware of Saints from other counties, etc.

As a convert who came in reading widely, I have favorite Saints of pretty much every nationality. But this doesn't seem normal for the mostly cradle Orthodox in my community. But they may know in great detail of the life of a Saint dear to them.

It puts me in mind of families. We know our own great-grandpa and his stories, passed along by the family. We might admire someone else's ancestor, but not relate to him with the depth of our own family, nor does our family recant those stories as a family tradition. At least, that's what it puts me in mind of.
 
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buzuxi02

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There are saints from even the far west whose fame has reached the East. Saint Augustine of Caterbury was a more popular Augustine than the one from Hippo. The Venerable St. Bede is another. St. Cuthbert I'm pretty sure he is more popular now in Orthodoxy than he ever was in the past 1200 years. Saint Monica has always been a more popular saint in the East than her famous son St. Augustine etc.
Then there are saints that are not recognized even when we were in communion. Orthodoxy recognizes Pope Liberius a saint but Rome does not! (Who would of thought that a Roman pope is rejected as a Latin saint, but we dont). Likewise Pope Theophilus of Alexandria is a saint in the Coptic Church but not in the Chalcedonian churches etc.
 
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dzheremi

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That's above my knowledge really.

I can just offer what I suspect most or all of you know already, and that is that I find "local" devotions to Saints. Depending on what island in Greece a family is from, or other little things like that, they will have particular love for certain Saints, without even being particularly aware of Saints from other counties, etc.

As a convert who came in reading widely, I have favorite Saints of pretty much every nationality. But this doesn't seem normal for the mostly cradle Orthodox in my community. But they may know in great detail of the life of a Saint dear to them.

It puts me in mind of families. We know our own great-grandpa and his stories, passed along by the family. We might admire someone else's ancestor, but not relate to him with the depth of our own family, nor does our family recant those stories as a family tradition. At least, that's what it puts me in mind of.

That's a very good analogy, and one I should keep in mind next time I see that kind of argument. I have experienced the same phenomenon in my communion, Anastasia, in that there are some saints that may be cross-communally known (e.g., St. Ephrem, St. Moses), but the more 'local' you get, the less they are known outside of their particular community. I think we may be in a little bit better shape than you guys in this regard, if I'm understanding your example of the Greek islands correctly, because there are examples like the important Coptic Orthodox Church of St. Tekle Haymanot (13th century Ethiopian saint) in Alexandria, and I have read from Ethiopian acquaintances that St. Hripsime (3rd century Armenian martyr-saint) is popular in Ethiopia. So it seems like there might be a little bit more "cross over", but even that might be limited. I remember I once mentioned St. Yared (6th century father of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church chanting system) in church over the agape meal and everyone looked at me like "Who?" Nobody knew him. I felt like that nerdy kid in the class who always has to answer every question so that everyone knows how much he knows. :oops: I dunno...I just assumed we knew each other better! I didn't know! Y'know, you administer another Church for 1,600 years and you'd think you would know them very well as a result! But I didn't realize at the time how 'local' and specific certain saints and traditions connected to them are.

So I like that analogy. It's not a downplaying of anything, it's just putting your own first, not out of cultural chauvinism but because they're yours. It makes sense that you would know them best. I'm not sure how effective it is as an answer to this objection, but I like that.
 
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dzheremi

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Then there are saints that are not recognized even when we were in communion. Orthodoxy recognizes Pope Liberius a saint but Rome does not!

Yep! On the 4th of Nasie (the 'little month' of 6 days that the Coptic calendar has at the end of the year, corresponding to early September). ;) I didn't know the Latins didn't recognize him. I wonder why.

Likewise Pope Theophilus of Alexandria is a saint in the Coptic Church but not in the Chalcedonian churches etc.

Yep! I think some people assume that being in communion presupposes recognizing all of each other's saints, but that doesn't seem to have been the case either before or after any of the major schisms.
 
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buzuxi02

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Yep! On the 4th of Nasie (the 'little month' of 6 days that the Coptic calendar has at the end of the year, corresponding to early September). ;) I didn't know the Latins didn't recognize him. I wonder why
He is a saint in the East for defending St. Athanasius when the Arian Emperor Constantius II pressed him to do so. For that Pope Liberius was sent into exile. The Roman people never recognized his replacement Felix and they protested and rioted. Constantius then forced him to sign the semi-arian position in exchange for his return from exile. So he was never made a saint in the west. His acceptance of semi-arian council(s) did not have much affect in the east and it seems at the time it was, basically kept a secret from the people as Liberius never preached it in public.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Don't know how relevant this is to the question, but ever heard of St Edward the Martyr? He was a king of England murdered in 978, and subsequently had a local English cult as a saint throughout the mediaeval period.

This terminated during the Reformation, but in 1931 they discovered his relics during a archaeological excavation of Shaftesbury Abbey (verified as such). The head Archaeologist decided to restore the relics to a Church, seeing that he was a saint and all - though insisting he be recognised as such and enshrined. Neither the Catholics nor Anglicans wanted to take responsibility for an obscure Anglo-Saxon king, so in the end they offered it to the Russian Orthodox Church in exile, which accepted. He is currently enshrined in a Church and has an active St Edward's Brotherhood devoted to him - though I understand it is run by some splinter group from mainstream Orthodoxy, on calendrical issues and such, called the True Orthodox Church currently.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Don't know how relevant this is to the question, but ever heard of St Edward the Martyr? He was a king of England murdered in 978, and subsequently had a local English cult as a saint throughout the mediaeval period.

This terminated during the Reformation, but in 1931 they discovered his relics during a archaeological excavation of Shaftesbury Abbey (verified as such). The head Archaeologist decided to restore the relics to a Church, seeing that he was a saint and all - though insisting he be recognised as such and enshrined. Neither the Catholics nor Anglicans wanted to take responsibility for an obscure Anglo-Saxon king, so in the end they offered it to the Russian Orthodox Church in exile, which accepted. He is currently enshrined in a Church and has an active St Edward's Brotherhood devoted to him - though I understand it is run by some splinter group from mainstream Orthodoxy, on calendrical issues and such, called the True Orthodox Church currently.

yes, we venerate St Edward the Martyr, as well as St Edward the Confessor (who I believe is the last saint mutually recognized East and West).
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yep! I think some people assume that being in communion presupposes recognizing all of each other's saints, but that doesn't seem to have been the case either before or after any of the major schisms.

he actually might be one. he is named as a saint by St Vincent of Lerins and St Leo of Rome. both men used him a lot to combat lingering Nestorianism. my patristics professor, Dr Veniamin also said he is a saint.
 
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yes, we venerate St Edward the Martyr, as well as St Edward the Confessor (who I believe is the last saint mutually recognized East and West).
Could you elaborate? How did that happen? Edward the Confessor died in 1066 and was only canonised in the West in the mid-twelth century, so long after the 1054 Schism. He died in communion with actual Roman Catholicism then. By what hook or crook did this occur? How did an English King AFTER the Schism become an orthodox saint?
 
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In our parish (OCA, mostly converts), we do have multiple times that we include Western saints in hymns, such as St Elizabeth, St Bridget, New Martyr St Elizabeth, St Edward, St Patrick, celebrating the saints of the British Isles etc. Of course, it isn’t nearly as much as the Eastern saints.
 
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Could you elaborate? How did that happen? Edward the Confessor died in 1066 and was only canonised in the West in the mid-twelth century, so long after the 1054 Schism. He died in communion with actual Roman Catholicism then. By what hook or crook did this occur? How did an English King AFTER the Schism become an orthodox saint?

because when East and West split, it's not like today where the info would have been known quickly. England only became truly loyal to Rome (as Rome wanted it) AFTER the Norman invasion, which occurred after St Edward died.
 
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dzheremi

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he actually might be one. he is named as a saint by St Vincent of Lerins and St Leo of Rome. both men used him a lot to combat lingering Nestorianism. my patristics professor, Dr Veniamin also said he is a saint.

St. Theophilos, you mean? That is very interesting to know.
 
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St. Theophilos, you mean? That is very interesting to know.

yep, St Vincent called him a holy Father, and St Leo wrote to Palestinian monks saying that if "you are one in faith with Athanasius, Theophilos, and Cyril, you are one in faith with me."
 
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In our parish (OCA, mostly converts), we do have multiple times that we include Western saints in hymns, such as St Elizabeth, St Bridget, New Martyr St Elizabeth, St Edward, St Patrick, celebrating the saints of the British Isles etc. Of course, it isn’t nearly as much as the Eastern saints.
St Elizabeth the New Martyr is considered a western Saint? I didn't even know that. But it makes sense (to me) that she would be considered both western and eastern.
 
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St Elizabeth the New Martyr is considered a western Saint? I didn't even know that. But it makes sense (to me) that she would be considered both western and eastern.
Probably not the best example :) not the same concept of the West (religious west) as the others
 
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Probably not the best example :) not the same concept of the West (religious west) as the others
Still I'm glad you mentioned it. I never thought about it, and I have a fondness for her. :)
 
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I’m still a St. Paul fan. We bald, bearded shrinking violets need to stick together! ^_^

Still I'm glad you mentioned it. I never thought about it, and I have a fondness for her. :)
 
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