question on NDE

[Albion]

Without historical and cultural context, your understanding of the Bible is meaningless.

Yes, but there is almost no language on Earth into which the Bible has not been translated, usually a number of times and by experts, so this particular issue really is moot. And if there is one somewhere that does not have its own translation of the Bible, people who know the Bible have brought the faith to them, using the Bible.

 

[Albion]

All those reports of "seeing Jesus" are just fake. People that have an NDE are not dead, and they do not see heaven or hell.

The idea that they are not dead seems to be the #1 objection to NDEs, but I am not sure if we can actually say that they were not dead. Still, let us say it for the sake of the argument.

How then does the person relate what was happening in other rooms of the hospital--with undeniable accuracy--when he or she has never been in them, has been nowhere near them, and in fact has never been to this city before (to cite one such NDE)?

 

[Radagast]

The idea that they are not dead seems to be the #1 objection to NDEs, but I am not sure if we can actually say that they were not dead.

Without a miracle, dead people do not come back to life. And God does not run day trips to heaven.

How then does the person relate what was happening in other rooms of the hospital--with undeniable accuracy--when he or she has never been in them, has been nowhere near them, and in fact has never been to this city before (to cite one such NDE)?

Bridey Murphy

 

[Radagast]

Without historical and cultural context, your understanding of the Bible is meaningless. Distortions base on not understanding the original Greek and Hebrew texts.

Many people understand the original Greek and Hebrew texts, and that's where modern translations are translated from.

 

[Francis Drake]

Sorry but no. SOME people reporting NDEs may report what you are talking about, but many, perhaps most, do not. Nor do they later move from their starting position to visions of heaven, etc.

Completely wrong. Many people report what I said.

 

[Francis Drake]

All those reports of "seeing Jesus" are just fake.

Says you, and of what worth is that when you weren't there.
My wife saw Jesus in heaven when she was 3 years old.

People that have an NDE are not dead, and they do not see heaven or hell.

They were medically dead, like those Jesus raised from the dead,

and would have remained dead, had they not been​

brought back by the medical profession.

 

[Francis Drake]

Without a miracle, dead people do not come back to life. And God does not run day trips to heaven.

Given that their spirit had departed, t​

hey were clinically and scripturally dead. So lets stop playing with semantics.
James2v26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The fact that the medical profession can resuscitate is mere science not a miracle. And if that resuscitation works fast enough, then the human spirit will return to the body, provided its not too late.

These spiritual accurate facts are backed by countless personal testimonies.

 

[Radagast]

Says you, and of what worth is that when you weren't there.
My wife saw Jesus in heaven when she was 3 years old.

Permit me to doubt that, given the absence of evidence.

They were medically dead, like those Jesus raised from the dead

They were presumably in a coma. They were not dead. Their bodies had not started to rot. Their spirits had not left their bodies.

 

[fat wee robin]

That's a bit silly, given that other writers go a long way beyond Paul's limitation.

Yes ,as the whole point of the Gospel is to help people to go beyond their lives at that time ,and become intelligent ,holy, children of God with the gifts of the Holy Spirit . Gifts which would often take them beyond Paul ,but never beyond Christ .

 

[fat wee robin]

Of course it is the case that people, individuals, can misunderstand or misread that which is their guidebook, just as they can misread the directions on the medicine bottle, but that does not make the medicine worthless or defective.

And there seems to be some assumption in your line of thinking that each person is on his own in this regard and that whatever each person comes up with is what he ought to go with.


The Holy Spirit never contradicts the Bible nor gives one essential article of belief to one person but denies it to another. He does lead the church into a right understanding of Scripture and the faith.

This is not true ,and it is better to avoid discussion as it will lead to nowhere .

 

[Albion]

Many people report what I said.

Although you are taking exception to it, nothing in that statement disagrees with what I wrote.

 

[Francis Drake]

Permit me to doubt that, given the absence of evidence.

Doubt all you like, it doesn't alter what repeatedly happened to my wife when she was taken up into heaven.

They were presumably in a coma. They were not dead. Their bodies had not started to rot.

I suggest you google what clinical death and a coma is before further daft comments
Sufficient to say, they are not the same.​

Their spirits had not left their bodies.

Hahaha.
There is far too much evidence out there that proves you wrong.

 

[Albion]

Bridey Murphy

Bridey Murphy has nothing to do with what I described. There may be another explanation, but that isn't it.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Yes, but there is almost no language on Earth into which the Bible has not been translated, usually a number of times and by experts, so this particular issue really is moot. And if there is one somewhere that does not have its own translation of the Bible, people who know the Bible have brought the faith to them, using the Bible.

So then you have a quagmire of which translation to trust more because there are frequent differences based on the doctrine of the denomination doing the translations. You're still no better of when it comes to complex issues. Seemingly simple subjects like what is the soul and the spirit are indecipherable by simply reading English translations.

 

[Hawkins]

The idea that they are not dead seems to be the #1 objection to NDEs, but I am not sure if we can actually say that they were not dead. Still, let us say it for the sake of the argument.

How then does the person relate what was happening in other rooms of the hospital--with undeniable accuracy--when he or she has never been in them, has been nowhere near them, and in fact has never been to this city before (to cite one such NDE)?

It's actually not a surprise. As long as you are sick, even to the extent of near death, your soul may not be in a status of "fully combined" with your body. For an example, my uncle kept saying that he saw ghosts in the days right before his death. My mother kept saying that my uncle (who's dead) kept calling her in dreams several days before her passing away.

Under that circumstance, the spirits out there can establish a kind of communication for you to get to the kind of information.

 

[Albion]

So then you have a quagmire of which translation to trust more because there are frequent differences based...

No, you don't. I never read the Bible as translated into some dialect that is spoken only by people in New Guinea. How does that confuse my understanding of the Gospel?

However, the bigger issue that is being avoided in all of this is that EVERY source of information about Christ and his mission is subject to the same kinds of objections. What if it was tampered with by some unknown party? What did that oral tradition really amount to? Could it be interpreted another way? And so on. Taken to its logical conclusion, this approach leads to solipsism, as Descartes discovered.

You might as well throw out every means of comprehension.

 

[Hawkins]

Most people probably are reluctant to believe that this is possible, but until there is some believable explanation for the experiences of some of these people--not all of them by any means!--it remains a mystery. That is why I recommended that people who think it's just a matter of hallucinations or dreams take a look at more of the material.

I agree with you on this. Not all of them are a result of hallucinations. I don't believe my own one is a result of hallucination.

 

[Albion]

With all respect, however, I think you are not speaking of NDEs. Not if you are referring to being very seriously sick but alive and of seeing sights, etc. that do not require the soul to be separated from the body.

 

[fat wee robin]

Although you are taking exception to it, nothing in that statement disagrees with what I wrote.

Yes there are some difficulties with some subjects in explaining clearly and often misunderstandings .

 

[Fascinated With God]

No, you don't. I never read the Bible as translated into some dialect that is spoken only by people in New Guinea. How does that confuse my understanding of the Gospel?

Knowing ANY translation is inferior to knowing the original languages. You are turning my point completely on its head to the opposite what I actually said. You don't seem to be reading very attentively, instead, you re-assert your own pre-formed presumptions about me no matter what I say. That is very poor manners.

However, the bigger issue that is being avoided in all of this is that EVERY source of information about Christ and his mission is subject to the same kinds of objections. What if it was tampered with by some unknown party?

If you think it is tampered with are you really a Christian?