Question on how many people needed for the Eucharist

abacabb3

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My priest keeps saying that without 2-3 laypeople, he cannot do the Eucharist or do anything liturgical. Being that the interwebs are not Orthodox friendly, can anyone point me to a written source that pertains to this? He told me that the priesthood of all believers is important, because without the laypeople the priest cannot perform his function.

Thanks!
 

ArmyMatt

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I suspect it's in one of the canons somewhere, but yes. you need at least two since Liturgy means work of the people, not work of the individual.

and again, it's the Scriptural example. Christ Himself says when 2 or 3 are gathered, He is among them and Acts is always communal
 
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FireDragon76

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That sounds right... it's one point that Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox agree on, at least in theory. No laity, no liturgy. In practice, I think Orthodox have a higher view of the ordained priesthood.

My pastor said that if a plane full of Lutherans crashed on a desert island and they had no pastor, it is possible that God would call someone to be a pastor, as there is no ontological difference between clergy and laity. But in historical practice, Orthodox groups without priests have not ordained new priests, and have only practiced the sacrament of baptism. So, I'm not sure how this is compatible with the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. Do any Orthodox Christians have input on this?
 
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Paidiske

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Anglicans have the same practice also. It's in canon law somewhere... no "private masses" with only a priest and a server, because this is the function of the people of God.

FireDragon, I remember debating the plane crash hypothetical at college. We agreed that although someone might take up the ministry role, it would be highly irregular and should be regularised (by proper ordination) at the first opportunity.
 
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FireDragon76

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FireDragon, I remember debating the plane crash hypothetical at college. We agreed that although someone might take up the ministry role, it would be highly irregular and should be regularised (by proper ordination) at the first opportunity.

I am surprised an Anglican would believe that is possible, considering that Anglicans have insisted on apostolic succession as the basis of fellowship. Lutherans do not accept episcopal succession as essential to the Church, though the ELCA submitted to Episcopalian co-consecration for the purpose of cooperating with the Episcopalians, and not without controversy.
 
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prodromos

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That sounds right... it's one point that Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox agree on, at least in theory. No laity, no liturgy. In practice, I think Orthodox have a higher view of the ordained priesthood.

My pastor said that if a plane full of Lutherans crashed on a desert island and they had no pastor, it is possible that God would call someone to be a pastor, as there is no ontological difference between clergy and laity. But in historical practice, Orthodox groups without priests have not ordained new priests, and have only practiced the sacrament of baptism. So, I'm not sure how this is compatible with the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. Do any Orthodox Christians have input on this?
Saint Nektarios Appears to Villagers in Romania | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

In a village of Romania there was no priest and the residents often went to the Patriarch with the problem in order to fill the empty spot. However the Patriarch did not have the means of satisfying the demand. The villagers often went to the Patriarch, but he would say the same thing, that he did not have a priest to send to the village.

Meanwhile people died unread (no funeral service), others had relationships and children without marriage vows, and the children and adults alike were unbaptized.

Then one day, outside of the church, a car stopped and out stepped a priest. The village was astonished and yelled out that a priest had come.

The villagers went to the church to greet him and asked him, "How did you come to the village after our Patriarch had said that he doesn't have a priest to send us?"

The priest answered, "Isn't this what you wanted? Did you not want a priest? Here I am."

All the villagers were glad in the presence of the new priest.

The priest began immediately working. He went to all the graves and read the funeral service. He baptized and married everyone in the village and administered Holy Communion.

One day he invited all the villagers to church and told them, "I will leave now, my mission is done."

The villagers were confused and asked, "Now that you came, you are leaving?"

However the priest did not listen to the villagers and proceeded with his decision.

When the villagers realized that their wasn't anything they could do, they thanked him for his offering.

After a few days, the villagers went to the Patriarch and they thanked him for sending them a priest and to let him know that they would appreciate it if he could send them another priest soon, but the Patriarch didn't know anything.

He said to them, "I didn't send a priest because I don't have one, however let me check with the chancellor to see if he had sent a priest to you to serve your needs."

He phoned the chancellor, but he too didn't send anyone.

The Patriarch inquired, "What did this priest do in your parish?"

The villagers answered, "He married us, baptized us, performed funerals for our parents, he did what any other priest would have performed for us."

Then the Patriarch asked, "Well, didn't he gave you any papers or log the Mysteries.

"Of course," said the villagers, "he gave us papers and he wrote them in the church's books."

"Then did anyone see what he wrote? And with what name he signed?"

"All the documents were written in Romanian and we are not well educated and the signature he signed in a language we have not seen before."

The Patriarch requested they go bring the books in order to see who was this clergyman.

When they returned with the book the Patriarch remained speechless. He couldn't believe his eyes.

Indeed all the documents were written in Romanian while his name was written in Greek with the name of his signature,

Nektarios, Bishop of Pentapolis
 
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ArmyMatt

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But in historical practice, Orthodox groups without priests have not ordained new priests, and have only practiced the sacrament of baptism. So, I'm not sure how this is compatible with the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. Do any Orthodox Christians have input on this?

the office of the priesthood of all believers is that all believers make the Eucharistic sacrifice. we all partake of the same Bread and Wine, from the same Chalice and from the same Lamb. that is what makes every Orthodox Christian a priest, we all partake of Christ's one offering.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Question: do we know what Canon Law? I do not know where to find it. If someone can point me I can look it up.

somewhere maybe in either the Apostolic Constitutions or the NPNF with the Councils. dunno for sure but that would be a place to start.
 
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FenderTL5

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There are prayers/ places in the Liturgy for the laity to respond with the "amen."
If I recall correctly, Bishop Kallistos Ware in his lecture on the Divine Liturgy said, without the Amen from the laity the priest can not continue.

 
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prodromos

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There are prayers/ places in the Liturgy for the laity to respond with the "amen" if I recall correctly, Bishop Kallistos Ware in his lecture on the Divine Liturgy said, without the Amen from the laity the priest can not continue.

Also necessary when someone is to be ordained.
 
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abacabb3

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somewhere maybe in either the Apostolic Constitutions or the NPNF with the Councils. dunno for sure but that would be a place to start.
I just searched every mention of the word "two" in Orthodox Canon Law the best I can find is the following from Apostolic Constitutions:

For as holy priests sanctify a place, so do the profane ones defile it. If it be not possible to assemble either in the church or in a house, let every one by himself sing, and read, and pray, or two or three together. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Let not one of the faithful pray with a catechumen, no, not in the house: for it is not reasonable that he who is admitted should be polluted with one not admitted. Let not one of the godly pray with an heretic, no, not in the house. For what fellowship has light with darkness? Let Christians, whether men or women, who have connections with slaves, either leave them off, or let them be rejected.

The fact that small meetings without clergy are polluted by even catechumens, it appears that the teaching is that a priest can make a small meeting sacret, provided there are 2 or three gathered.

Compare this to Roman Catholic Canon Law:

Can. 904 Remembering always that in the mystery of the eucharistic Sacrifice the work of redemption is continually being carried out, priests are to celebrate frequently. Indeed, daily celebration is earnestly recommended, because, even if it should not be possible to have the faithful present, it is an action of Christ and of the Church in which priests fulfil their principal role.


My question is, is it even possible for an Orthodox priest to celebrate alone or is it impossible? The Orthodox Canon Law seems to say you need two or three for Jesus to be there.
 
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ArmyMatt

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it is possible but rare and only if a need. Elder Michael the Silent of Valaam was blessed to serve the Liturgy alone in his cell chapel when he lived as a recluse, but that was only when his cell attendant could not make it to his cell due to the harsh winters. but he is the only exception I have ever come across.
 
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abacabb3

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it is possible but rare and only if a need. Elder Michael the Silent of Valaam was blessed to serve the Liturgy alone in his cell chapel when he lived as a recluse, but that was only when his cell attendant could not make it to his cell due to the harsh winters. but he is the only exception I have ever come across.
Do we have anything specific on that? Do we know if he would have "extra" when his attendant was around? Because we have pictures of him making it: The Light Of Valaam

Would the sacrament be a sacrament by desire then, and not a true sacrament which requires at least two people for Christ to be present?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Do we have anything specific on that? Do we know if he would have "extra" when his attendant was around? Because we have pictures of him making it: The Light Of Valaam

Would the sacrament be a sacrament by desire then, and not a true sacrament which requires at least two people for Christ to be present?

there is a book on his life. Elder Michael would simply do all prayers, petitions, and responses. I dunno what you mean by "extra."

it would be a true sacrament, it was simply given under very specific circumstances.
 
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abacabb3

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there is a book on his life. Elder Michael would simply do all prayers, petitions, and responses. I dunno what you mean by "extra."
He would do a lot of eucharistic bread and bring it out to people who could not attend. Perhaps he had so much extra on days where there was no one, he would do the prayers but use the left over eucharist?

it would be a true sacrament, it was simply given under very specific circumstances.
How do we know? Wouldn't it fail to meet the circumstance required by Canon Law and the unanimity of church tradition?
 
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ArmyMatt

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no, this was when he was completely snowed into his cell where it was so bad his attendant could not reach him. he would consume everything. this was when no one could make it to him for services.

and we know because Church canon law is always applied pastorally. Elder Michael was in a unique situation because of his isolation and persecution. this is not a common thing at all in Orthodoxy, and should never be the norm.
 
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abacabb3

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Understood. What implication does this have on the priesthood of all believers? I know Saint Bede says we are all priests because we are in union with the High Priest Himself, Jesus Christ. Do laymen have a priestly role in making the Eucharist possible by offering prayers when responding to the priest?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Understood. What implication does this have on the priesthood of all believers? I know Saint Bede says we are all priests because we are in union with the High Priest Himself, Jesus Christ. Do laymen have a priestly role in making the Eucharist possible by offering prayers when responding to the priest?

sure, Elder Michael is an extreme example. the priesthood of all believers is rooted in clergy and laity alike partake of the Eucharist. that is the offering that makes all Orthodox priests of God
 
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