Question on baptism

ratchet30

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Hello folks, I understand lutherans believe God chooses whom He will save and draws us to Him so does that still mean that every infant baptized will be saved? i believe lutherans believe that the Holy Spirit will work faith in the infant at baptism, correct?
 

ubicaritas

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Hello folks, I understand lutherans believe God chooses whom He will save and draws us to Him so does that still mean that every infant baptized will be saved? i believe lutherans believe that the Holy Spirit will work faith in the infant at baptism, correct?

First off, Lutherans are not Calvinists that put election and predestination in front of baptism like that in emphasis, necessarily. All we do know is that people that are baptized and share the faith are saved, and that includes infants.

Your last point is correct, Lutherans believe that the baby is saved by virtue of God's promises imputed to them through water and the Word. Including the gift of the Holy Spirit. They will grow in faith as they mature, of course.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hello folks, I understand lutherans believe God chooses whom He will save and draws us to Him so does that still mean that every infant baptized will be saved? i believe lutherans believe that the Holy Spirit will work faith in the infant at baptism, correct?

They believe in what scripture says:

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Luke 18:15
Now people were even bringing their babies to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them. And when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.

Luke 18:17
Truly I tell you, if anyone does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child, he will never enter it."
 
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Alithis

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First off, Lutherans are not Calvinists that put election and predestination in front of baptism like that in emphasis, necessarily. All we do know is that people that are baptized and share the faith are saved, and that includes infants.

Your last point is correct, Lutherans believe that the baby is saved by virtue of God's promises imputed to them through water and the Word. Including the gift of the Holy Spirit. They will grow in faith as they mature, of course.
you don't "know " that -in reference to the sentence that states "All we do know is that people that are baptized and share the faith are saved, and that includes infants." ..its just what you "choose to believe" as it has been passed down to you by tradition.
 
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Tigger45

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ubicaritas

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i was going to mention that you cant promot "AGAINST" their stance here ... but i was too late lol

There are other parts of the forum to debate the merits of infant baptism, but this isn't one.

While we do have a tradition of sorts, we believe and confess what we do because we believe it is biblical, not merely because it is traditional.
 
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Alithis

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There are other parts of the forum to debate the merits of infant baptism, but this isn't one.

While we do have a tradition of sorts, we believe and confess what we do because we believe it is biblical, not merely because it is traditional.
not debating at all , just pointing out the facts .. you don't "know" that -its just a preferred theology
 
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Although this is not the place to discuss the validity of infant baptism - for whoever struggle with this and wants to understand the Lutheran position, I think it's often helpful to view it the other way around:

Baptism is not a work we do or something we produce. It's a means of grace; instituted and given us by God. And who are we to deny children God's grace? :)

Consider all of Scripture: It's difficult to find evidence for anyone rightly hindering God's grace, but it's quite easy to find evidence of children rightly offered to God.
 
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John the Ex-Baptist

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Hello folks, I understand lutherans believe God chooses whom He will save and draws us to Him so does that still mean that every infant baptized will be saved? i believe lutherans believe that the Holy Spirit will work faith in the infant at baptism, correct?
I don't mean to be presumptious, but the way in which you've phrased the question here sounds like it is coming from someone who has already made up their mind what they believe concerning infant baptism. That's not an issue to me really, but I think it only fair to draw attention to the straw man in your question. You said "Does that still mean that every infant baptized will be saved?", to which I think we would all answer in the negative. However the same must also be said of adults too. Is every adult who is baptized saved? The answer again I believe would clearly be in the negative. Does this mean that baptism is wrong, worthless or unnecessary? Absolutely not!

I personally think a more productive question to ask would be "Why do Lutherans baptize?", which I think would be at odds with many of the popular opinions I have encountered during my time in charismatic and evangelical churches. Probably the most common was that it was a "public confession of faith", and whilst I don't entirely disagree that can be a result of baptism, I certainly don't believe it to be the prime reason given in the Bible. There is also the one that says "it is an outward symbol of an inward change". It seems to me that in this case, it is the believer carrying out what they consider to be an work of obedience, to show outwardly to others what they know, that they know, that they know to be true in their heart. Ironically, as a result there are countless Christians who spend much time and effort trying to show that baptism is virtually unnecessary, and has no salvific effect at all.

The reason Lutherans baptize however, is because we believe what the Bible has to say of baptism. First and foremost, we baptize because it has been instituted by God through the spoken words of Jesus Christ when He said:

Matthew 28:18–20 (ESV) — 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Mark 16:15–16 (ESV) — 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

We believe that through it we are received into the Church:

John 3:5 (ESV) — 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

We believe that when we are baptized in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is not a work of our own, but one of God. As the Large Catechism says:

For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God’s own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do?

The reason we believe baptism to hold the power that it does is not that the water is somehow magical, but that in the institution of baptism through Christ, God has attached His own Word to it. Yes its true that all we men can do is apply H2o to another person, but when the action of applying water is carried out, whilst trusting what God's Word says of baptism, then the reality becomes so different. This is why Luther says it is the work of God and not man.

What are the works of God in baptism?

Just as God saved Noah and his family in the ark, so too in baptism we are found in the Ark which is Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18–22 (ESV) — 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Through our baptism we are regenerated and renewed of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5 (ESV) — 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

In our baptism we are united with Christ in His life and His death, thus overcoming the powers of sin, death and the devil through Him.

Romans 6:3–6 (ESV) — 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Through our baptism, God washes us, sanctifies us, and justifies us in His name and by His Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:9–11 (ESV) — 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In our baptism we receive the forgiveness of sins, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, this promise being for us, and for our children, and all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself.

Acts 2:38–39 (ESV) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Finally I would just like to quote once more from Luther's Large Catechism, regarding the validity of infant baptism:

That the Baptism of infants is pleasing to Christ is sufficiently proved from His own work, namely, that God sanctifies many of them who have been thus baptized, and has given them the Holy Ghost; and that there are yet many even to-day in whom we perceive that they have the Holy Ghost both because of their doctrine and life; as it is also given to us by the grace of God that we can explain the Scriptures and come to the knowledge of Christ, which is impossible without the Holy Ghost. But if God did not accept the baptism of infants, He would not give the Holy Ghost nor any of His gifts to any of them; in short, during this long time unto this day no man upon earth could have been a Christian. Now, since God confirms Baptism by the gifts of His Holy Ghost as is plainly perceptible in some of the church fathers, as St. Bernard, Gerson, John Hus, and others, who were baptized in infancy, and since the holy Christian Church cannot perish until the end of the world, they must acknowledge that such infant baptism is pleasing to God. For He can never be opposed to Himself, or support falsehood and wickedness, or for its promotion impart His grace and Spirit.
 
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twin.spin

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The Bible teaches that people enjoy the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ his Son (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28).

The Bible states that baptism gives people those very blessings of life and forgiveness (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5-7; 1 Peter 3:21). Baptism gives those blessings because of the powerful word of God that is attached to the water.

The Bible also teaches that baptism:
  • washes away sin: Acts 22:16
  • connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3
  • connects us to Christ's burial Romans 6:4
  • clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27
  • is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27
  • is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20
  • is "for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39
 
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ratchet30

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hello again. been busy with work. I don't mean to make straw man arguments. just trying to undertand lutheran baptism more since im considering becoming a confessional lutheran :D

I do hear that one who dies before getting baptize will still be saved as long as they don't despise baptism. Is this what Martin Luther and the early lutherans taught? If salvation comes through baptism than How can one be saved without it?

Also, what does it mean by water with the word? Not sure how that works. I know these questions make you think im a troll but i need further understanding
 
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Arcangl86

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hello again. been busy with work. I don't mean to make straw man arguments. just trying to undertand lutheran baptism more since im considering becoming a confessional lutheran :D

I do hear that one who dies before getting baptize will still be saved as long as they don't despise baptism. Is this what Martin Luther and the early lutherans taught? If salvation comes through baptism than How can one be saved without it?

Also, what does it mean by water with the word? Not sure how that works. I know these questions make you think im a troll but i need further understanding
Lutherans believe that baptism is a means of grace and is needed for salvation. But at the same time Lutherans don't want to box in God, so we are open to the possibility that people might be saved without baptism. But what we do know is that those who are baptized is saved.

As for water with the word, it's a refinement of Augustine's sacramental theology. Put simply, the Lutheran understanding of the sacraments requires two elements. Those elements are the promise given by God in scripture, and some sort of physical sign. Water by itself has no power to save us, but water joined with the words of promise does. Take a look at the Small Catechism section on Baptism.
http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#baptism
 
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