Question - Mother of God

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

I agree with you there. I know how you feel about the SBC in general and yes my church is an SBC church, but if say I invited you to my church for a day, I extremely doubt you would find anything at my church that makes you feel the way you do.

I would not go.

What are some lies you have encountered?

Any person or group that claims:

1) Catholics worship Mary.
2) Catholics are not Christians.
3) Catholics do not believe the Bible.
4) The pope is the Anti-Christ.
5) Any other of the claims of Jack Chick, Tim LaHaye or Dave Hunt...

is bigot trash, unrespectable and anyone who quotes or references any of these groups or people is unrespectable as well.

I really don't think I was furthering an agenda and I am not an agent of evil (strong words brother).

If you publicize these evil men's lies about the Church, then you are spreading their message, and are just as evil as they are. Just as culpable for every person they pull out of Christianity and ensnare into some man-made worthless Fundamentalist sect.

Perhaps you and I could discuss what you believe? But in a friendly matter.

Not if you post comments or statements from Fundamentalist anti-Catholic bigot sites. I will not abide liars or those who spread lies.

I just don't want you to think of me the same as people like Jack Chick or Jerry Falwell or David Cloud (a real bad fundamentalist) or even Wayne Camp.

Then don't quote sites like www.maryworship.com.

Very simple. And logical: if you want to read about Catholicism, only go to Catholic sites. Never trust anything you read about the Church from any non-Catholic site.

Kirk

PrinceJeff · Oct 14, 2001

Very simple. And logical: if you want to read about Catholicism, only go to Catholic sites. Never trust anything you read about the Church from any non-Catholic site.
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OK I will do that. Show me some links.

As for people like Jack Chick, I have heard about him and will concur with you on that one. My pastor told me something about a tract he saw that showed a priest with horns and a tail and how horrible he thought it was.

What did LaHaye say that was bad? I'm asking out of ignorance here. Who is Dave Hunt?

I was not intending to spread lies or evil or anything. I am a Christian of only a year and still don't know alot of things. Please give me a chance. If I did something that offended you I apologize. If showing something from a site that you feel is evil is offensive, I will not show it again even if it is just to show what so and so says. Pretty evident it hurts ya and I don't want to do that to a brother in Christ.

Reborn2000 · Oct 14, 2001

Hey Jeff, you beat me to a few questions!! I was curious about some links to check out as well. And also about Tim LaHaye, is the dislike for him because of his view/belief of Revelation, or because of how the LB series has played out? Or another reason altogether.

Also, Wols, just wanted to again thank you for the info you provide. I learn so much from coming to this forum, and much of it is from reading your posts. Thank you so much!

I have a completely off the subject and most likely ignorant question to ask. My husband was watching Mass on television a few days ago. He said it looked like everything the members said was memorized, or something to that effect. I told him I would ask the "resident Catholics" about it. So I guess my question would be, how are your services conducted? Basically all I know is that there is a lot of kneeling and standing. Any help on this would be appreciated.

Hugs,
Kelly

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

OK I will do that. Show me some links.

http://catholicoutlook.com/index.html

What did LaHaye say that was bad?

Well, aside from conning millions of saps out of tens of millions of dollars with his books on the Rapture myth, he sprinkles his literature with typical anti-Catholic lies.

I'm asking out of ignorance here. Who is Dave Hunt?

One of Satan's finest princes.

Thanks.

Kirk

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

I have a completely off the subject and most likely ignorant question to ask. My husband was watching Mass on television a few days ago. He said it looked like everything the members said was memorized, or something to that effect. I told him I would ask the "resident Catholics" about it. So I guess my question would be, how are your services conducted? Basically all I know is that there is a lot of kneeling and standing. Any help on this would be appreciated.

Not sure what you're looking for. If you mean how are they organized, then it's basically the same every Mass.

Entrance.
Prayers, blessings.
Readings (Old Testament, Psalm, New Testament, Gospel).
Homily (a sermon)
The Creed.
The Eucharist.
Final blessing.
Exit.

If you go into any Catholic church they should have missalettes in the pews that can walk you through the whole thing, once you learn how to use them. If they're the newsprint, folded over and stapled type, it's generally okay to go ahead and take one. The Church has plenty.

Kirk

Reborn2000 · Oct 14, 2001

Thanks Kirk, I really appreciate it. That was exactly what I was looking for. Also thanks for the link. I will try to check it out soon. Now I am going to head off to bed so that I will be able to get up for church in the morning...errr, in a few hours.

Hugs,
Kelly

PrinceJeff · Oct 14, 2001

The reason I asked about LaHaye, Kirk, was because I have two of his books about the rapture and maybe I am not seeing what you see, but I do not recall seeing any anti-catholic sentiment there. I will not read/not read his or anyone's books just because of how someone feels of the person, but if their works are cause for problem, I won't bring them up. If you still feel I am perpetuating lies and such, I am sorry. I never saw myself as doing that, but hey that's my opinion and that is yours. I fully honor and respect your right to an opinion. But I also have the right to disagree as well. The two books I have of LaHaye's have been a real blessing to my walk with God.

Don't hate me for it is all I ask.

Brothers In Christ,

Jeff

PS- Thank you so very much for the link. I also found one from yahoo called "Biblical Evidence For Catholicism". I liked the part where the man talked about Luke 11:27-28. You can see that at ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ326.HTM

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

The reason I asked about LaHaye, Kirk, was because I have two of his books about the rapture and maybe I am not seeing what you see, but I do not recall seeing any anti-catholic sentiment there.

Much of the worldview surrounding the Rapture Myth is steeped in anti-Catholicism, seeing as how the Rapture was concocted about a century and a half ago, and then popularized a century ago, both via Fundamentalist sources at the height of those periods' respective anti-Catholic movements.

LaHate in particular is well known for leaning on the stuff made up by Lorrainne Boettner. In LaHate's "Are We Living in the End Times," I believe, he directly plagarizes Boettner's list of "Catholic inventions." LaHate's worthless "Left Behind" books are also riddled with anti-Catholicism of very degrees of subtlety (from having the pope turn into the mythical "False Prophet" to the having Rome provide Bibles for burning in the statue of the so-called "Antichrist").

If you still feel I am perpetuating lies and such, I am sorry.

If you repeat things about Catholics that you get from sources like LaHate, then you are likely spreading lies.

I never saw myself as doing that, but hey that's my opinion and that is yours.

This is not a matter of opinion. And I don't hate you. But I will not respect you in any way if you are shown to be someone who goes to non-Catholic sources, particularly Fundamentalist ones, when looking for information on the Church.

Kirk

PrincessTracy · Oct 14, 2001

I have a question? Kirk, why do you get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you? Your posts don't show the love of our Lord regardless of your denomination. Why call people names? Why say hateful things? Is this Godly? Do you think you get through to people by calling them bigots? or by claiming their thoughts and believes are lies, when you don't even know what they believe? Are you all knowing? I thought only God was all knowing.

I think you should really think about how you are perceived as a witness to others. We are all called to be a witness of the hope that is in us and I don't think your tactics of putting people down is working.

As for the original subject - If you say that Mary is the mother of God doesn't that put her before or greater than God? Doesn't that go against everything the bible says? Most pagan religions are based on a "mother god" or a female beginning to earth. I'm not saying that catholism is pagan so don't get bent out of shape. I'm saying it's dangerous to think of a mother to God.

I haven't read all the post but I did catch in one that someone said that the bible wasn't the bottom line. If not the bible then what is? It was not written in the 16th century. We have scripts within the first century of when the scriptures of the new testament were written and current scriptures (most, not all) are 99.9% accurate. So I would have to question where this person got their information.

Also the idea that the protestant church is a newer belief system than the catholic church is something I don't understand. Maybe they didn't call it protestant, but Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, John, etc. were not catholic. Since non-catholic basically is grouped as protestant, I would think they were more protestant than catholic.

*puts up a shield to protect herself from the rotten tomatoes and mud slinging that is about to occur*

Wolseley · Oct 14, 2001

is bigot trash, unrespectable and anyone who quotes or references any of these groups or people is unrespectable as well.....If you publicize these evil men's lies about the Church, then you are spreading their message, and are just as evil as they are.
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Um, Kirk, isn't it just possible that some of these people are honest, sincere Christians who have only been misled by the material their teachers are choosing to impart to them? I think you're carrying the "guilt by association" bit too far. I don't think the taxi drivers who carried the terrorists to the airport are as guilty as the terrorists; neither do I think people who are misled by bigots like Chick are as evil as he is. Misled, deceived, mistaken, even deluded, yes; evil, no. And calling them such is not Christian, Brother Kirk. Mind the beam in your eye.

(Wols pauses to don his abestos suit in anticipation of Kirk's next breath of fire.....)

Prince Jeff: some excellent sites which are in concordance with the actual teaching of the Catholic Church are:

www.catholic.com

www.envoymagazine.com

www.a2z.org/acts/

www.newadvent.org

I might also suggest books by Karl Keating, Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, David Currie, Jeff Cavins, Robert Sungenis, and Mark Shea.

Blessings,
---Wols.

Wolseley · Oct 14, 2001

Firstly, I don't know why you keep bringing up the distinction between God the Father and God the Son. As I said before, I am only referring to God the Son.
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I bring it up because it's relevant. God the Son had a mother; God the Father did not.

Secondly, saying you are alive when you die is a bit of a contradiction isn't it? After all, Acts 2 show that Jesus was dead, both body and soul.
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I don't see where Acts 2 states that Jesus was dead, both body and soul. Can you be more specific? Verses?

Also, I perceive that you do not understand the concept of one's angel. One's angel is the image of one's self in the spirit although it is not one's self. This is why God and the angel of the Lord often seem to be one thing in the Bible. A similar idea is meant by Peter's angel in Acts. What you see at the Transfiguration is the angels of Moses and Elijah. But all that does not matter anyway. Both Moses and Elijah were taken up and thus are a different case than everyone else. To this day, Jews expect Elijah to appear because they cannot exactly explain where he went. Same idea in Jesus' time.
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So in 1 Peter 3:19, it wasn't Jesus who preached to the spirits in prison, it was actually His angel? Hmmmm.......novelty of novelties, saith Quoholeth.......

Fourthly, I do not know why you are bringing up whether or not Catholics worship Mary. That would be another topic.
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The name of the website we were discussing is "maryworship.com" is it not?

Fifthly, I am an academically trained in theology,
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Which school of theology did you attend, and who were your professors? There can be a vast difference between the Pontifical Institutes in Rome and say, Notre Dame in Indiana, especially if the class is being taught by the likes of Richard McBrien.

I am well studied and I am also Roman Catholic who has a very good understanding of the Catholic faith.
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That may be; but I have to admit, the description of "one's angel" as outlined above is certainly nothing I have ever encountered in Catholic theology before.

Now could we get back to the original question?
Perhaps you could respond to this without evading the question. Are you saying that Jesus divided himself on the cross upon death and the God part did not die but went to heaven and the human part did die and did not go to heaven? Perhaps you would like to study the early church councils on the impassibility and the indivisibility of God the Son before you respond.
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Not at all, my dear fellow. I am saying that Christ's human, physical body died and went into a tomb in Palestine. His spirit (divine and human) went to Sheol, where He loosed the spirits in prison.

After all, you are making the same argument as Protestants make when they deny that Mary is the Mother of God. They say Mary is the Mother only of the "human part." Catholics deny this is an impossibility because Jesus is fully God and fully man. How is it then that the same does not apply to Jesus who died on the cross?
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I think if you go back and re-read my posts, I was the one who said that any separation of Christ's divine and human natures is a denial of His hypostatic union. I never said that Mary was only the mother of His "human part". Mayhap you have me confused with someone else?

Thank you for your dialogue.
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And for yours.

God bless Afghanistan.
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But not, IMHO, their government, nor the terrorists they harbor.

Blessings,
---Wolseley.
(Former Sergeant, Combat Engineers, USAF.)

Ipsemet · Oct 14, 2001

Mary mother of God .. I don't understand why so many people can not understand what that means to catholics. What it seems to mean to some of you is blasphemy and would not be accepted in the catholic Church.

If you want to know the official stance on any aspect of catholic faith then I would suggest doing research on your own. All of official catholic writings are available in one form or another. Wolseley has given some links and I'll supplement those here with official writings and resources.

<a href="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm">Catechism of the Catholic Church<a href="http://

<ahref="http://www.prairienet.org/nrpcatholic/cicmenu.html">CodeofCanonLaw<ahref="http://

<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/">SummaTheologica<ahref="http://

<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/">SummaTheologica<ahref="http://

<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/">SummaTheologica<ahref="http://

<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<ahref="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/">CatholicEncyclopeida<ahref="http://

IwouldimploreyouallthathavequestionsofthecatholicChurchtodosomeresearch,formeducatedopinions,andthenaskaway.

IwouldliketogiveyousomepersonalthoughtontheviewofMaryandtheSaints.

Iwasdepressedatonepointinmylife.Iwon'telaborateonthedetails,butIwillsaythatIdidn'thavefaith.InmydepressionIwashelpedbysomeverygoodpeople.Thosepeoplereinstatedmyhopeinthegoodnessofhumanitywhenmylittlecorneroftheworldseemedlost.Thosegoodpeoplehelpedme.Theydidnothavesupernaturalpowers.Theydidnotturnnightintoday.Theydidnotmakemyproblemsmiraculouslydisappear.Theyweren'tevenmyfriends.Theywerethereonlytohelpme.

Anotherthoughtis,Ilovemymotherverymuch.WhenIneedhelpIturntomymotherbecauseIknowshewillalwaysbethereforme,nomatterwhatpathinlifeItake.Ialsofeelthatmymotherhasraisedmewell.Manyofmytraitsareadirectresultofherupbringing.Shehasbecomeasortofrolemodelformeaswellapurveyoroftrustedadvice.Ithinkmostpeoplehaveapersonintheirlifethattheycantrustandturnto.IfthatisnottruethanIpraythatsuchpeoplewillenteryourlife.

Ihopethatwasfairlyclearthoughperhapsindirectandnotverytheological.

"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec"Iamnotconsciousofanythingagainstme,butIdonottherebystandacquitted;theonewhojudgesmeistheLord.Therefore,donotmakeanyjudgmentbeforetheappointedtime,untiltheLordcomes,forhewillbringtolightwhatishiddenindarknessandwillmanifestthemotivesofourhearts,andtheneveryonewillrec<!--EZCODEITALICEND--">

I would implore you all that have questions of the catholic Church to do some research, form educated opinions, and then ask away.

I would like to give you some personal thought on the view of Mary and the Saints.

I was depressed at one point in my life. I won't elaborate on the details , but I will say that I didn't have faith. In my depression I was helped by some very good people. Those people reinstated my hope in the goodness of humanity when my little corner of the world seemed lost. Those good people helped me. They did not have supernatural powers. They did not turn night into day. They did not make my problems miraculously disappear. They weren't even my friends. They were there only to help me.

Another thought is, I love my mother very much. When I need help I turn to my mother because I know she will always be there for me, no matter what path in life I take. I also feel that my mother has raised me well. Many of my traits are a direct result of her upbringing. She has become a sort of role model for me as well a purveyor of trusted advice. I think most people have a person in their life that they can trust and turn to. If that is not true than I pray that such people will enter your life.

I hope that was fairly clear though perhaps indirect and not very theological.

"I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will rec

Ipsemet · Oct 14, 2001

I'm not sure what happened to the other post. It won't let me edit so I'll just repost it.

Mary mother of God .. I don't understand why so many people can not understand what that means to catholics. What it seems to mean to some of you is blasphemy and would not be accepted in the catholic Church.

If you want to know the official stance on any aspect of catholic faith then I would suggest doing research on your own. All of official catholic writings are available in one form or another. Wolseley has given some links and I'll supplement those here with official writings and resources.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Code of Canon Law

Summa Theologica

Catholic Encyclopeida

I would implore you all that have questions of the catholic Church to do some research, form educated opinions, and then ask away.

I would like to give you some personal thought on the view of Mary and the Saints.

I was depressed at one point in my life. I won't elaborate on the details, but I will say that I did not have faith. In my depression I was helped by some very good people. Those people reinstated my hope in the goodness of humanity when my little corner of the world seemed lost. Those good people helped me. They did not have supernatural powers. They did not turn night into day. They did not make my problems miraculously disappear. They weren't even my friends. They were there only to help me.

Another thought is that I love my mother very much. When I need help I turn to my mother because I know she will always be there for me, no matter what path in life I take. I also feel that my mother has raised me well. Many of my traits are a direct result of her upbringing. She has become a sort of role model for me as well a purveyor of trusted advice. I think most people have a person in their life that they can trust and turn to. If that is not true than I pray that such people will enter your life.

I hope that was fairly clear though perhaps indirect and not very theological.

"I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God." - Corinthians 4:4-5

Wary Larry · Oct 14, 2001

Wolsley:

1. Acts 2:26-27 indicates Jesus was dead, both body and soul. The original Greek says "the soul of me."

In case you were unaware, Hades is the realm of the dead.

2. Secondly, I did not say Jesus' angel was preaching to any spirits in prison in 1 Peter. You missed the point again. I was referring to your misguided interpretation of the Transfiguration.

Moreover, there are too many ways to read 1 Peter 3:19 for you to claim that Jesus headed off to proclaim the gospel for three days between the cross and the resurrection. One has to pretty well imagine this into the text.

3. I started this thread and I have not discussed the "worship" of Mary.

4. I figured you would go there about academic training. It doesn't matter where I attended. You, and the others here, seem to have the idea that college and university is more about indoctrination than education.

5. You also seem to have some strange idea that if I have an idea about angels I must have learned it from Catholicism or I must not be a Catholic or something. This is quite an odd way of thinking. Catholics think too. We are not simply cultists who just pander to the Catholic belief system as if it were some kind of god or idol.

6. You say you have not divided Christ but I perceive some dishonesty on your part. You say Christ's spirit (divine AND human) went to heaven, but Christ's body (not divine) died. Notice that you want to say Christ's spirit is divine and human but you also imply that his body was only human. Was the human body which died on the cross divine or not? If not, then neither is Mary the Mother of God. If it is, then God died on the cross.

7. God bless Afghanistan. And God bless the government of Afghanistan too. Jesus taught us to bless both our neighbours and our enemies. If you love only your friends you are not better than the pagans.

8. Now, was the body which died on the cross divine or not?

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

I have a question? Kirk, why do you get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you?

I don't. But I will never cheerfully abide liars. Lying is the greatest evil in the entire world, and liars should be drummed out of any forum which they use to spread their filth.

Why say hateful things?

It's not hateful. It's true.

Do you think you get through to people by calling them bigots?

I don't care about "getting through" to people. All I care about is getting the liars to shut up.

If you say that Mary is the mother of God doesn't that put her before or greater than God?

No. All it means is that the being she gave birth to is more than just a man, he was God from the very moment of conception. Don't read more into it than it says. The actual term is "Theotokos," which means "Birth Giver to God." Nothing more. And it is not your place to read into it.

I haven't read all the post but I did catch in one that someone said that the bible wasn't the bottom line.

It's part of the bottom line, but not all of it. The idea of "Bible Alone" was concoted by Martin Luther in the early 1500s.

If not the bible then what is?

The deposit of the faith, both written and oral, given by the Apostles to their successors the Bishops and preserved by the Church throughout all history.

Also the idea that the protestant church is a newer belief system than the catholic church is something I don't understand.

Well, let's see. From the year 33 on, we have people who believe in some form or fashion like Catholics do (sacraments, faith and works, apostolic succession), then 1500 years later a bunch of monks in Germany come up with a new set of ideas, and throw out much of the original faith. Ergo, the Cathlolic position is old, and the Protestant one is new.

Maybe they didn't call it protestant, but Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, John, etc. were not catholic.

Yes they were. Peter was the first pope, the others bishops of the early Catholic Church (though the name Catholic Church wasn't used until around the year 100). The early Church believed in the sacraments, had bishops, priests and deacons, believed in the Real Presence. Read the Early Church Fathers. You won't find a Protestant among them.

And you certainly won't find any Fundamentalists. Since because Protestantism hadn't been invented yet, there was certainly no time for it to be corrupted into fundamentalism.

Kirk

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

Um, Kirk, isn't it just possible that some of these people are honest, sincere Christians who have only been misled by the material their teachers are choosing to impart to them?

Being poorly taught is no excuse for spreading filth. If you are so stupid that you blindly regurgitate what Pastor Billy Joe Bob Smith tells you about other faiths, then you're really not bright enough to be participating in public conversation to begin with.

Kirk

PrincessTracy · Oct 14, 2001

I have to say I disagree with you.

Peter was never a pope in his lifetime. Maybe that is a title Catholics gave him after the fact. The Apostles where just that APOSTLES. They weren't bishops, and during the time of there lives "The Church" was all believers, not a select few. Paul even preached against the division of believers.

In my believes alot of things you say are not true, but I am more articulate than to just sit back and call people names and spout hate. Sorry but not being a Catholic I don't agree that any other book or any traditions overide the bible. That was the trap the Pharisees fell into.

Since it seems we are talking about apples and oranges I won't argue with you. But I think you are a rude person and that action should be taken againest anyone who calls people names and are so hateful to others as you are. I think if you can't be civil you shouldn't say anything at all.

Jesus doesn't teach hate.

The number one cause of atheism is Christians who spread hate and act "Holier than thou". That is not the way Jesus would have His followers to act.

Kirkland1244 · Oct 14, 2001

I have to say I disagree with you.

You're not disagreeing with me, but with the documents of the ancient church that show that Peter was the first leader of the Church in Rome, and that his successor was Linus, who became bishop of Rome.

The Apostles where just that APOSTLES. They weren't bishops, and during the time of there lives "The Church" was all believers, not a select few.

Whose saying that the Church was only a select few? I never said that. Don't you ever put words into my mouth.

Sorry but not being a Catholic I don't agree that any other book or any traditions overide the bible.

None of Holy Tradition "overrides" the Bible. They spring from the same source, the Revelation of God, and therefore cannot contradict.

That was the trap the Pharisees fell into.

The main problem with the Pharisees was their hypocrisy, not their beliefs. Take the three main groups of Jews in the New Testament period, the Pharisees, the Saduccees and the Zealots. Now take Jesus. Try to figure out which group his beliefs are most similar to. The answer may surprise you.

Since it seems we are talking about apples and oranges I won't argue with you.

Yes, I'm talking about Christianity as its been practiced by the Church for nearly 2000 years, and you're talking about a religion someone made up at most 500 years ago.

But I think you are a rude person and that action should be taken againest anyone who calls people names and are so hateful to others as you are.

The truth only seems hateful to those being exposed by it.

Jesus doesn't teach hate.

And I don't hate you. Or PrinceJeff. But I will not abide liars. Lying is the greatest evil in the world, and liars must be stamped out, driven away, into the hills where their falsehoods can never hurt anyone again.

The number one cause of atheism is Christians who spread hate and act "Holier than thou".

Who ever said I was holier than anyone? Not me. Don't read into my comments, try to make me say more than I am, or re-interpret them to suit your own purposes.

Kirk

PrincessTracy · Oct 14, 2001

How can you say that what I believe is a lie? You don't even know what I believe! You haven't asked and I don't think you care about anyone that doesn't believe in the First Church of Kirkism.

I will be praying for you Kirk. If you are like this in person I'm sure you live a pretty misrable and lonely life, putting down people and calling them names like a child.

I was actually interested in learning more about Catholicism. With people like you representing it, no wonder so many people see it in a negitive light. Praise the Lord that I know some very dear Christians that are Catholic that have a much more loving and productive way of explaning things (including the ones on this board). I believe all brothers and sisters should praise and worship the Lord however they want as long as its biblical and doesn't go againest the teachings of the Lord.

With that said, I wash my hands of arguing with you. I really hope you learn to express yourself in a more productive and Christian way.

In Christ,
Tracy

Kirkland1244 · Oct 15, 2001

How can you say that what I believe is a lie?

Where did I say that? Don't read into what I say, or put words into my mouth. Ever.

With that said, I wash my hands of arguing with you.

I didn't realize it was ever an argument. Silly me.

Kirk

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