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Question - Mother of God

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Wary Larry, Oct 11, 2001.

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  1. Wary Larry

    Wary Larry Guest

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    Catholics:

    Is my reasoning wrong here? If so, why? I am trying to use the same line of reason in both situations below.

    1. Mary is the Mother of Jesus

    Jesus is God

    Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

    2. Jesus died on the cross.

    Jesus is God

    Therefore, God died.


     
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  2. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Larry -

    Welcome to the Board.

    Good question..I can see how this can get confusing.

    Catholics believe that Jesus had two natures - He was BOTH God and man. We call this the "incarnation". He had all the power and glory of God, but understood and shared man's nature as well - He was hungry, slept, etc.


    Jesus was "God on Earth" and when he died, God, the father was still in Heaven and thus did not die. He is very much alive. It ties to the trinity, three people in one God. God sends the Son and the Holy Spirit, they are three entities from one God.

    I hope I explained that. Wols?
     
  3. Wary Larry

    Wary Larry Guest

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    I am neither assuming that Mary is the Mother of God the Father nor am I assuming God the Father died on the cross.

    Did God the Son die on the cross?
     
  4. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

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    I belive Jesus was also God and Man, but Mary was not the mother of Jesus as God but as Jesus the man. God can't have a mother, which would basically make everything we believe in a sham. Hmm seems Catholics and Baptists agree on at least one thing. ;)
     
  5. ZooMom

    ZooMom Thanks for the memories...

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    Yes, God the Son died on the cross.


    And I don't think you can separate Jesus as man from Jesus as God. He is both at once. And Mary is His mother. Therefore she is the Mother of God. Simple.

    That's like saying God can't have a physical body or everything we believe is a sham. But He did, didn't he.
     
  6. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Yes, God the Son died on the Cross. Physically, anyway. Jesus is immortal, and He didn't die entirely any more than any of us will. He was alive for three days, preaching to the spirits in captivity and setting them free, then He came back to life in His physical body.

    You can "die" on earth, but your spirit will never die.

    As for the Trinity, I always sort of looked at it with this analogy: There is one big container of quicksilver. This is divided up into three equal containers.
    Are all three of quicksilver? Yes.
    Are all three of the same substance, of the same batch? Yes.
    Are all three equal? Yes.
    If you put them all back into the same container, what do you have? Quicksilver.
    So the one container full and the three containers full are the same substance? Yes.
    Are they the same container? No.

    Same thing with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    I am reminded of the old story about the lad who was taking instructions to join the Catholic Church; he was about 16, and the priest instructing him was an old Jesuit, about 70 or so. They finished up the instructions pertaining to the Trinity, and the priest said, "Now, do you have any questions?"
    The boy said, "No, Father."
    "You're not unclear on any aspect of this? You understand it all right?"
    "I understand it perfectly, Father," the boy said.
    The priest sighed and said, "Well, I'm glad that you do, because I sure don't."

    :) The Trinity is a mystery. Always has been, always will be.

    The idea that Mary was mother of Jesus as a man only, and not of Jesus as God, is a denial of the hypostatic union of Christ, and was a major component of heresies long since dead, such as Docetism and Gnosticism---most of these died out by the third century. I am continually surprised to see them repeatedly popping back up in Protestant circles, with the accompanying arguments pro and con. Catholic stage whisper:"Psst, hey, guys! We settled that a long time ago!.

    Blessings,
    ---Wols.
     
  7. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

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    Yep it is always mysterious. His ways are not our ways. ;)



    MOTHER OF GOD -- Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. ("Catechism").

    The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,

    "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

    Colossians 1:16-17 says,

    "For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist".

    John 8:58 says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first -- not Mary.

    I hope this is not taken as offensive. I got it from a site called MaryWorship.com and it does make sense to me.
     
  8. Wary Larry

    Wary Larry Guest

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    Wolsley:

    What makes you think the spirit in you is you? What makes you think the spirit in any man is part of his humanity. As far as I can tell, the Bible tells us that the spirit in you is not am element of humanity but the life breath spirit of God.

    I also see you claiming that when you die you are not dead. Is that correct?
     
  9. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Adiministrator Hat On

    Wary Larry, just so you know, this is a Catholic Discussion Board. It's ok to ask questions and share points of view...let's keep it at that. Debates lead to hard feelings, so let's keep it civil. Administrator Hat off
     
  10. Ipsemet

    Ipsemet Guest

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    Perhaps this is over simplified but ....

    Nicene Creed

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all that is seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    one in being with the Father.
    Through Him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation
    He came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    He was born of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

    For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    He suffered, died, and was buried.
    On the third day He rose again
    according to the Scriptures;
    He ascended into heaven
    and is seated on the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and His kingdom shall have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come.

    Amen.
     
  11. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

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    What did Wary do wrong? He asked a question.

    Catholic doctrined does not teach that Mary existed before Jesus. Just that she is his mother. She truly gave birth to him. The child born was not merely human, he was also divine. You cannot separate the God from the Man in Jesus in any way. If Mary was the mother of the man, she was mother of the God. In that she gave birth to him. Clearly, prior to the Incarnation, God the Son had never been *born* before.

    I notice no one seems to mind that Prince Jeff who quoted a filthy bigot scum site in his post. That's absolutely absurd. Such actions should not be tolerated. Tell me, do you go to your local National Socialist Workers Party office to find information on Judaism?

    Do not trust those who rely on sites like this for their "information." This is Fundamentalism at action: evil and lies used to attack true faith.

    Kirk
     
  12. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Well, first of all, you must understand that the Catholic Church does not depend solely on Scripture either for definitions of doctrine or for a rule of faith. Quoting the Bible is fine, but it's not the bottom line. The idea that it is, is a Protestant innovation which dates no earlier than the sixteenth century. :) Add to that the various and often novel interpretations of that Bible which have been promulgated since Luther, and you can make the Bible say just about dern near anything.

    Secondly, Can God have a mother? Certainly. God the Son has a mother. God the Father does not....and neither does God the Holy Spirit. That distinction has to be made. Mary occupies a very interesting place in human history---she is the daughter of God the Father, the mother of God the Son, and the spouse of God the Holy Spirit.

    Thirdly, yes, I do believe you remain alive when you die. Your body experiences physical death---but the part that makes up you----your spirit, soul, whichever term you wish to use, does not. The instant you die, you end up in one of three places: heaven, hell, or purgatory, and you are very much alive in all three places.

    I am aware of such concepts as "soul sleep" and other things, but they contradict both Scripture and Sacred Tradition. (If your soul "goes to sleep" until Judgement Day, then Moses and Elijah forgot to put out their "Do Not Disturb" signs, and the bellboy woke them up prematurely to go meet Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration.) ;)

    And finally, I would be extremely unlikely to believe anything posted in a site called "MaryWorship". The Catholic Church has stated over and over and over again that Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. Let me say that again: Catholics do not worship Mary. Not now, not vefore Vatican II, not at any time in the past, not ever. You will find Protestant sources who say that we do; they are in error. You will also find off-the-wall Catholic sources who say that we do; they are also in error.

    As I have recommended before: if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, then research sources which have been approved by the Catholic Church, and not what a lay Catholic tells you, not what a non-approved Catholic source tells you, not what a Protestant tells you, and certainly not what a professional bigot like Jack Chick or Bob Jones tells you.

    And lastly, you cannot offend me by asking questions about things pertaining to Catholicism that you do not understand, if you are honestly trying to learn something. I will explain it until you understand it---even if you don't agree with it---if you truly want to know what we believe. If you're just coming along to goad the Catholics and stir up a little controversy for fun and profit, however, or if you're entering the discussion to convert somebody or to prove that I'm wrong and you're right......well, that's something else.

    The bottom line is that my hope is for you to understand what Catholics believe, and why they believe that way. You don't have to believe it, you don't even have to accept it. You can choose to reject in it whole or in part. But you should at least understand it. :)

    May God's blessings be with you all today,
    ----Wols.
     
  13. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

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    Kirk do not call me something I am not ever again, ok?

    Do I understand everything about the Catholic church? No.

    About the whole Mary thing, why doesn't someone explain to me everything they believe about her. I would love to know. :)

    One more thing. I am a Christian first, So. Baptist second. I attend the church I do because I feel a great presence of the Holy Spirit and His love there. I am not a Protestant because I hate Catholcism, which I do not. Do we disagree. Of course. but that should not make us "seperated brethren". I guess all it comes down to is that if you have Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will go to heaven. My whole thing about Mary is that she was human just like we all are but specially chosen.

    Wols, I appreciate your loving attitude here. I only wish *some* people would learn it too. God bless you! ;)


    Jeff
     
  14. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

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    Kirk do not call me something I am not ever again, ok?

    If you don't want to be called a bigot, don't post BS you "learned" at bigot sites like MaryWorship.com.

    If someone espouses Nazi-ism, and reads Nazi sources, it is not out of line to assume that they are a Nazi.

    Likewise when one quotes and reads anti-Catholic bigot garbage.

    Kirk
     
  15. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

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    Kirk I am no bigot here. You can say it all you want to, but I am not. I could say also that you are showing anti-protestant bigotry yourself. It seems like everything that is not Catholic or even shows disagreement in the slightest is bigot filth in your eyes.

    Just what makes that site anti-Catholic anyways?
     
  16. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

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    I could say also that you are showing anti-protestant bigotry yourself.

    You could say that, but it would just be another lie. I have no problem with Protestants. Or even Protestants unintelligent enough to go to Fundamentalist churches. But I will not suffer fools or liars. Not gladly, and not ever.

    It seems like everything that is not Catholic or even shows disagreement in the slightest is bigot filth in your eyes.

    No, only if it involves lies.

    Just what makes that site anti-Catholic anyways?

    The scum who wrote that site twist and misrepresent Catholic teaching to try to "prove" that Catholics worship her. It is a front for one of America's largest anti-Catholic dens of hate and bigotry, "Good News for Catholics."

    By spreading their lies, and pointing people to their site, you are furthering their evil agenda, which makes you an agent of evil.

    Kirk
     
  17. Wary Larry

    Wary Larry Guest

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    Wolsley:

    Firstly, I don't know why you keep bringing up the distinction between God the Father and God the Son. As I said before, I am only referring to God the Son.

    Secondly, saying you are alive when you die is a bit of a contradiction isn't it? After all, Acts 2 show that Jesus was dead, both body and soul.

    Thirdly, I do not believe in soul sleep. Also, I perceive that you do not understand the concept of one's angel. One's angel is the image of one's self in the spirit although it is not one's self. This is why God and the angel of the Lord often seem to be one thing in the Bible. A similar idea is meant by Peter's angel in Acts. What you see at the Transfiguration is the angels of Moses and Elijah. But all that does not matter anyway. Both Moses and Elijah were taken up and thus are a different case than everyone else. To this day, Jews expect Elijah to appear because they cannot exactly explain where he went. Same idea in Jesus' time.

    Fourthly, I do not know why you are bringing up whether or not Catholics worship Mary. That would be another topic.

    Fifthly, I am an academically trained in theology, I am well studied and I am also Roman Catholic who has a very good understanding of the Catholic faith.

    Now could we get back to the original question?

    Perhaps you could respond to this without evading the question. Are you saying that Jesus divided himself on the cross upon death and the God part did not die but went to heaven and the human part did die and did not go to heaven? Perhaps you would like to study the early church councils on the impassibility and the indivisibility of God the Son before you respond.

    After all, you are making the same argument as Protestants make when they deny that Mary is the Mother of God. They say Mary is the Mother only of the "human part." Catholics deny this is an impossibility because Jesus is fully God and fully man. How is it then that the same does not apply to Jesus who died on the cross?

    Thank you for your dialogue.

    God bless Afghanistan.
     
  18. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

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    Fifthly, I am an academically trained in theology, I am well studied and I am also Roman Catholic who has a very good understanding of the Catholic faith.

    You say this, but your statements about angels do not reflect Catholic theology. The Catechism clearly teaches that angels are an entirely other form of being from humans.

    Kirk
     
  19. Ipsemet

    Ipsemet Guest

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    ". . . no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. This need not be so, my brothers." - James 3:8-10

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show his works by a good life in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace." - James 3:13-18

    If you would like help understanding official catholic belief I think a good resource is the Catholic Encyclopedia.
     
  20. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you there. I know how you feel about the SBC in general and yes my church is an SBC church, but if say I invited you to my church for a day, I extremely doubt you would find anything at my church that makes you feel the way you do. :)



    What are some lies you have encountered?



    I really don't think I was furthering an agenda and I am not an agent of evil (strong words brother). Like I said I do not understand everything about Catholicism. Perhaps you and I could discuss what you believe? But in a friendly matter. :)
    I really don't want trouble on this board with anyone Kirk. Let's not let differences in belief make us hate eachother. I just don't want you to think of me the same as people like Jack Chick or Jerry Falwell or David Cloud (a real bad fundamentalist) or even Wayne Camp. I have an Aunt and Uncle who are devout Catholics and I love them dearly.

    If you are willing to discuss, I am as well. :) Later my friend!


    Jeff
    Isaiah 40:30-31
     
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