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Question for those in favour of deporting illegal migrants

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by TG123, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    Would you support deporting or imposing lengthy prison terms on Mexican, American and Canadian political, trade and business leaders who passed NAFTA and robbed millions of Mexicans of their livelihoods and cut people's wages in an already poor country?

    http://witnessforpeace.org/downloads/NAFTAat15.pdf


    Some facts about what this trade agreement did to people in Mexico:

    Displaced an approximate 8 million farmers
    Drove down wages by 25%
    Allowed food prices to rise by over 500%
    Increased illegal migration to the US- 2/3 illegal migrants living in the States came after NAFTA's passing in 1994.


    You are ready to condemn the migrants as criminals and advocate their deportation or imprisonment.

    Do you feel the same way about the people who signed this trade agreement? The migrants are taking job some Americans want- the people mentioned below stole millions of jobs, lowered wages, increased hunger. If you are an American citizen, will you call for the arrests of presidents George H Bush and William Jefferson Clinton for their part in destroying millions of lives in Mexico, and every Democratic and Republican senator who voted in favour of the deal? I'm in favour of putting Brian Mulroney and Kim Campbell behind bars for this. Perhaps for life- who knows how many did not survive the destruction of everything they had and the skyrocketing food prices. I would call for their execution if I wasn't opposed to the death penalty.

    Would you call for the arrest of the executive leaders of Johnson Controls, in whose factories masked men beat up and terrorize union leaders and workers who call for better working conditions? What about to military leaders who supply military aid to the Colombian army whose violence and that of its allied paramilitaries cause thousands to flee their homes and make them refugees- and although Colombia is down in South America some of them flee to the US as well. Want to start with arresting your Defence Minister for letting US weapons and army aid go to murderers?


    Am I going to hear calls for massive deportations and/or arrests and lengthy prison sentences for these people? Go ahead, start whenever you are ready.

    http://www.usleap.org/files/Spring NL 2011.pdf
     
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  2. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    Panzerkampfwagen? Mdancin4theLord? TerranceL?

    Still waiting, folks...


    You were so quick to respond to my other migrant related threads. Really looking forward to hearing your input on this...
     
  3. Panzerkamfwagen

    Panzerkamfwagen Es braust unser Panzer im Sturmwind dahin.

    +21
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Why?

    Presumably the Mexican government agreed to the treaty. If the Mexican people feel unjustly treated by their government, they should fix things, not commit crimes in the United States. It isn't as though the US invaded Mexico and forced them to sign a treaty.
     
  4. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    Because millions were robbed of their livelihoods, wages and futures.

    If a friend of yours allows you to use your wife's credit cards, and you know that he beats her and terrorizes her into compliance in other ways, are ou justified in doing so? I mean, if she feels unjustly treated she should just fix things at home, right?

    Also, the maquiladoras are owned by AMERICANS, not Mexicans. Shouldn't their butts be in prison?

    One last thing, when the Zapatistas attempted to fix their government and launched an uprising, the US Government gave military aid to help the Mexican army defeat them. So when Mexicans try to 'fix things' in their own land, your country won't let them.

    They are to quietly and meekly submit to both their corrupt governments and American companies that set up sweatshops on their side of the border and flood their markets with American corn, even if that means going hungry and poor. And if they try to fix their problems or escape them by crossing over to your side, they are in big trouble.


    I guess America always comes first.
     
  5. wintermile

    wintermile Bioconservative

    +28
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    Eighty percent of Americans opposed NAFTA.

    Upscale, of Mexican independence, agro-enterprise Mexican youths have "increased their incomes of 21 percent (62 per cent turning a profit)" by building up the JERFT program. These youths most likely do not subscribe to what Sherrod Brown calls "chasing after authoritarian governments in order to profit from [violent] labor (global) investments". They have my attention. Different from Nike, they will not shell out more money to advertise one celeb than pay a fleet of child slaves their annual income. Groomed to be soildly independent, they most likely will speak out against violence. They are youths; agro-youths who will not be spoiled by corrupt transnational backers.
     
  6. PHenry42

    PHenry42 Newbie

    +40
    Muslim
    It's not NAFTA that's the problem, it's the agricultural subsidies we have here in the US. They benefit nobody but American corn farmers, at the expense of everyone else. What we're essentially doing is paying them to produce something which isn't economically viable to produce in the first place, and then sell it in Mexico at a below-market price which drives Mexican farmers out of business.
     
  7. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    Can you please cite a source for that? I found one stating that over 70% of Canadians and Americans are in favour.

    Most Canadians, Americans support NAFTA: poll | Truth About Trade and Technology - Truth About Trade and Technology

    God bless them, I hope they will succeed.
     
  8. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    And this was one of the key effects of NAFTA being passed... the destruction of Mexican corn agriculture. NAFTA also lowered wages in Mexico to make it more 'competitive'.
     
  9. Panzerkamfwagen

    Panzerkamfwagen Es braust unser Panzer im Sturmwind dahin.

    +21
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Presumably they supported it, because they've enabled the government which allowed it to happen. It obviously hasn't made things dire enough in Mexico that they're willing to change their government to make it a better place to live.

    Since I live here, yes it does. I live in the United States, so I prefer that the government act in the best interests of the United States.
     
  10. wintermile

    wintermile Bioconservative

    +28
    Christian
    Single
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
  11. wintermile

    wintermile Bioconservative

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    I would not mind working for a noncorrupt transnational corporation if their mission is to strive for excellence by respecting every single party member involved. The TC I would be interested in would be Dream & Build Networks of the Post-Waste Era.

    For all parties involved, the honorable action to take is to hold accountable those who trespassed onto Mexican farmers' land, draft specialized trade agreements, and, most importantly, work side by side with migrants and Mexican citizens to rebuild their farms (regardless of all threats).
     
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,381
    Messianic
    Tons of manufacturing companies moved from the US to Mexico under the trade ageement to employ Mexicans in their own country to work ..
     
  13. wintermile

    wintermile Bioconservative

    +28
    Christian
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    Can you work in violent conditions? An up and down cycle of labor abuse has been reported globally. For instance, an employee was intimidated when she was told that if she did not work overtime she would lose her day's wages. I am not a well read individual on this subject, but a few years back I read of a woman walking home (after a 12 hour day) with menstural stains on her pants because she could not fund sanitary napkins and, being at work, could not cleanse herself as needed.

    There are over 100 alarming aspects concerning NAFTA. When a state bans a harmful agent and that agent is produced by a NAFTA related company, most likely the state will be sued, the agent will be used and all reform regulating the agent will become void. Does that sound like free trade to you? Buy our product or be sued; that is NAFTA in a nutshell.
     
  14. Eric Hilbert

    Eric Hilbert Guest

    +0
    If they're here illegally, yes.

    Irrelevant. They're responsible for their actions. They chose to break the law.

    Yes, that often happens when one commits a crime.

    If they're here illegally, yes.

    Of course not.

    What you do in your country is your business.

    If they're here illegally, yes.

    If they're here illegally, yes.

    We don't have a defense minister.

    Which ones, specifically, are here illegally?
     
  15. PHenry42

    PHenry42 Newbie

    +40
    Muslim
    Which implies that the solution is not the repudiation of NAFTA, but the abolition of corn subsidies here in the US. Why not, spending cuts seem to be fashionable right now.

    What exactly do you mean by NAFTA "lowering wages in Mexico to make it more competitive"? It's a free trade agreement, it doesn't stipulate what the wage level should be. That's determine by the labour market. I can imagine wages having gone down in Mexico due to ex corn farmers having become unemployed, but that's again a consequence of the corn subsidies, not NAFTA.

    Establishment of maquiladoras doesn't drive down wages, it increases them by increasing the demand for labour. If they'd offer wages lower than the general wage level, nobody would work there.

    Free trade isn't evil, subsidising first world producers that compete with third world ones is.
     
  16. wintermile

    wintermile Bioconservative

    +28
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    A scholarly viewpoint is worth reading. NAFTA AND U.S. CORN SUBSIDIES: EXPLAINING THE DISPLACEMENT OF MEXICO’S CORN FARMERS | PROSPECT

    NAFTA Woes

    Two 'threats' are listed under the heading Expanding the US-Canada Free Trade Deal to Mexico in Mark Ritchie's article Agricultural Trade Liberalization. Ritchie quotes from the NAFTA Draft Text Article 501, May-92 when he writes "The first is the stated objective of increasing the "scale of production". Deregulation is the "stated" second threat.

    And under the heading The Worst And Best Industrial Policy in Ian Fletcher's Free Trade Doesn't Work chapter 9 Where Does Growth Really Come From standards are outlined to reflect how the "worst industrial policies" become progressive due to "having cheaper factors of production, which mostly comes down to cheap labor".
     
  17. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    So you support punishing Mexicans who are in America illegally but not Americans who rob Mexican farmers of their livelihoods or run sweatshops in which they exploit people and brutalize those who speak out, correct? You also have no problem with American military giving aid to regimes that abuse human rights. But you are in favour of punishing people if they attempt to flee the conditions you helped impose in their countries by fleeing to yours. Right?
     
  18. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

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    Actually, they did it to get cheap labour. Also, many of their workers were forced from their farms... they had jobs before NAFTA took them away. They went from sustaining themselves to working in sweatshop conditions for sweatshop pay.
     
  19. Eric Hilbert

    Eric Hilbert Guest

    +0
    Correct. We have no jurisdiction to prosecute crimes that occur in Mexico.

    Sure, I do. But that isn't what we're talking about.

    No. I'm in favor of punishing them if they break the law by crossing our borders illegally.
     
  20. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +172
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    Married
    Really? If an American skinhead joined the US Army, went on training in Israel, killed some IDF soldiers and went back to America, should the US not take any legal action against him?

    Also, if Americans shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed in Mexico, should Mexicans be held accountable for crimes committed in the US? Like if a Mexican harms someone in the US, should the Mexican government punish him or extradite him or just say "it happened in America" and let him or her go?

    But these are connected. American corporate crimes in Mexico have contributed to millions of Mexicans having to leave their homes and look for jobs in the US, breaking your laws.

    I appreciate your honesty but I believe you are advocating hypocrisy by favouring punishing Mexicans for breaking American laws while letting Americans who harm Mexicans in their own country go scotch free.
     
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