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Question for Lutheran

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by MezzaMorta, Aug 11, 2007.

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  1. MezzaMorta

    MezzaMorta Well-Known Member

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    I wish to inquire onto the opinions of Lutheran as to this statement written by Martin Luther.


    “If I had to baptise a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words `I baptise thee in the name of Abraham” – Martin Luther'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290. [36] Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413.'
     
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  2. QuiltAngel

    QuiltAngel Veteran

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    Here is the complete statement:

    You may read more about it here: http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther and the Jews (Web).htm Scroll down to Appendix 2.

    I think the part, "if a Jew, not converted at heart, were to ask baptism at my hands . . " is very important here.
     
  3. thereselittleflower

    thereselittleflower Well-Known Member

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    As I have said so many times in the past, context is everything.

    .
     
  4. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Guess what John the Baptist (you know, the guy from the Bible) said when the unconverted Jews came to him making a political appearance of being baptized ...

    MT 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

    And, ... John the Baptist was also a Jew.

    Ed
     
  5. DaRev

    DaRev Well-Known Member

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    Quilty! I'm impressed! :thumbsup:
     
  6. PreachersWife2004

    PreachersWife2004 by his wounds we are healed Supporter

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    Nice try, MM.

    What's next?
     
  7. QuiltAngel

    QuiltAngel Veteran

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    Thanks, DaRev, Can you tell I have had to research this kind of question before?

    I wish that if people want to learn about Luther that they read his works. At the very least, find sources who give an unbiased view. I get a little put out when someone posts a quote of his and cites sources like Grisar and O'Hare. Both of whom set about to discredit him and took so many things out of context. Of course, someone in the RCC is going to try to discredit him
     
  8. MezzaMorta

    MezzaMorta Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Thank you for the response, is this the context that Lutheran doctrine puts it in or is this your personal opinion? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] I will read the link, perhaps it shall give some greater incite into Luther’s mindset when making this comment.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Do you have similar links, perhaps expanding on the context of his other anti-jewish works, particularly “On the Jews and their Lies”?[/FONT]
     
  9. QuiltAngel

    QuiltAngel Veteran

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    Seems to me that I gave you links in another thread. Actually, the link I gave above has a section on that particular work.

    Go to this link: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ and scroll down the right side and you will see lots of links to papers on Luther. I think you will find it all very helpful. James Swan is neither Catholic or Lutheran. He has taken time to study different writings along with the context of the writings as well as the historical and social context.

    I am not sure what you are asking when you say, "is this the context that Lutheran doctrine puts it in?"
     
  10. Melethiel

    Melethiel Miserere mei, Domine Supporter

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    [/FONT]
    No, that's the context that Luther wrote it in.

    Oh Quilty, you've been quoted in GT. You're a celebrity. :D
     
  11. Tertiumquid

    Tertiumquid Regular Member

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    Mezzamorta got this citation from the online document, "Luther Exposing the Myth". I know this is the case because of the citation and documentation:

    "If I had to baptise a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words `I baptise thee in the name of Abraham” – Martin Luther'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290. [36] Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413."

    I began reviewing this webpage here. I contacted the author as well, and was told he would take a look at my reviews and get back to me, and he never did.

    I just wanted to add something about the quote in question. The documentation provided states, "Martin Luther'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290. [36] Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413." At the time I wrote my paper on Luther and the Jews, I did not have a copy of Grisar, Luther Vol. 5.

    Grisar states:

    "The fact is, however, that no increase in the number of conversions took place. This disappointing experience, the sight of the growing insolence of the Jews, their pride and usury, not to speak of personal motives, such as certain attempts he suspected them to have made on his life at the instigation of the Papists, brought about a complete change in Luther s opinions in the course of a few years. As early as 1531 or 1532, when a Hebrew baptised at Wittenberg had brought discredit upon him by relapsing into Judaism, he gave vent to the angry threat, that, should he find another pious Jew to baptise he would take him to the bridge over the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words : I baptise thee in the name of Abraham; for " those scoundrels," so he adds, " scoff at us all and at our religion."

    I have not heard this particular story before, and I will look into it. At face value, the quote is more likely strong angry hyperbole than an actual threat. Grisar often missed this in Luther's writings. Also note, this quote from Grisar is said to be from the early 1530's, while the quote I posted in my paper is from a later date.

    James Swan
    Beggars All: Reformation and Apologetics
     
  12. LilLamb219

    LilLamb219 The Lamb is gone Supporter

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    Very informative, thank you :)
     
  13. Maybe Mezza, you should also read Luther's The Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew, and the Jewish Encyclopedia's article on Luther which revealed he was personal friends with several local rabbis.

    Oh, and this, for fuller context on Lutheranism and the Jewish people:

    Disassociation of the ELCA with anti-Semitism and repudiation of Luther's remarks on the subject.

    A similar statement from the LCMS.

    Same with the church in Canada.

    Don't worry. I don't actually expect you to read the linked content and stop your attacks. But, for what it's worth, there it is.
     
  14. KEPLER

    KEPLER Crux sola est nostra theologia

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    Oh, for a thousand reps to give... :thumbsup:
     
  15. IowaLutheran

    IowaLutheran Veteran

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    Grisar and O'Hare (the author of "The Facts About Luther") - these guys have long since been discredited and disowned by Catholic scholars because of the type of intellectual dishonesty displayed by these egregious misquote.
     
  16. MezzaMorta

    MezzaMorta Well-Known Member

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    What is your source for this?
     
  17. QuiltAngel

    QuiltAngel Veteran

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    Really? I would like those resources too for reference as well as reading them now.

    Thanks
     
  18. KEPLER

    KEPLER Crux sola est nostra theologia

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    It's possible that IowaLutheran is referring to the Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong, who (to his credit) removed references to O'Hare's work from his site (Cor ad Cor Loquitur) after Jim Swann pointed out to him how laughable O'Hare's work actually is.

    The (continuing) problem with Dave Armstrong's approach is that he rarely (if ever) quotes from Luther by having read Luther. Armstrong always quotes someone else who is quoting Luther. This is about as unscholarly a method as you can find. We leave that method to hacks and poorly educated and illogical remonstrants.

    Real historians, real apologists and real theologians go to the original source, and look at the whole statement in its original context. QuiltAngel's original post was a prime example of such an approach.
     
  19. IowaLutheran

    IowaLutheran Veteran

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    I've read it before in the statements that were the result of the various post-Vatican II Lutheran/RC dialogues. I'll see if I can dig a few out.

    Kepler is right - Dave Armstrong has backed off of using these sources AFAIK.

    In any event, why are you looking to bash Luther? Your Holy Father doesn't, and as a matter of fact, is well-known to be an admirer of Luther. Here's a snippet from a Catholic blog, http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2006/11/happy-martini.html

    "Last night, a sizable crowd came together in the German town of Erfurt for an ecumenical celebration of the "Martini" -- Martin Luther, who was born on yesterday's date in 1483 and studied in Erfurt, and St Martin of Tours, whose feast is today.

    Those who know Ratzingerian thinking couldn't help but wonder if, were he not Pope, the Boss would've been out there as one of the lantern-swinging faithful. Benedict XVI has long maintained a great affinity for Luther; here's a relevant snip from the John Allen archives:[F]ew figures have exercised greater influence on him than Luther. In a 1966 commentary on Vatican II’s “The Church in the Modern World,” Ratzinger said that the document leaned too heavily on Teilhard de Chardin and not enough on Luther - a remarkable comment in an era with no offical Lutheran-Catholic contact, when many Catholics still branded Luther a heretic. “Ratzinger has been involved in dialogue with Lutherans from way back,” said Br. Jeffrey Gros, ecumenical affairs specialist for the U.S. bishops. “In the 1980s he was even interested in declaring the Augsburg Confession [the first Lutheran declaration of faith] a Catholic document. To think that he wanted to torpedo this [agreement] is a total misread.”
     
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