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Question for LDS/Mormons

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Frankie said:
Apperently you did not read all of my post! Here it is again for you to read through the entire thing this time"

I disagree that faith is "in degrees". One either has faith, or they don't. To what extent we follow God's will for our lives can be done in degrees but saving faith is not something that you work towards in degrees. You have it or you don't. It's that simple.

Frankie
I read, and reread your entire post. We are talking of the principle of faith. We see it compared to a mustard seed, the tinyest seed known, and for its size the largest tree or plant that grows from it. With that "small" amount of faith we can move mountains. The idea is planted in our minds that there must be faith greater than the size of a mustard seed. Is it possible that what the Savior is teaching is that our faith, like the mustard seed, can grow in leaps and bounds if we nurture it? If we had that greater faith, would that be the "saving faith" that is spoken of?

You say: "To what extent we follow God's will for our lives can be done in degrees..."

how do you rule out the possibility that to the extent we follow God's will is proportional to the degree of faith we posess in God?

Faith is a gift from God. It starts out small, and has no limits if we nurture it. Or it can die all together if we abuse it. That is among the many tests of our free will.
 
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Frankie

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MormonFriend said:
I read, and reread your entire post. We are talking of the principle of faith. We see it compared to a mustard seed, the tinyest seed known, and for its size the largest tree or plant that grows from it. With that "small" amount of faith we can move mountains. The idea is planted in our minds that there must be faith greater than the size of a mustard seed. Is it possible that what the Savior is teaching is that our faith, like the mustard seed, can grow in leaps and bounds if we nurture it? If we had that greater faith, would that be the "saving faith" that is spoken of?

You say: "To what extent we follow God's will for our lives can be done in degrees..."

how do you rule out the possibility that to the extent we follow God's will is proportional to the degree of faith we posess in God?

Faith is a gift from God. It starts out small, and has no limits if we nurture it. Or it can die all together if we abuse it. That is among the many tests of our free will.
MF, can you show me what passages in the Bible you believe that teach that if we "abuse" it (or faith), that we will loose it and also what exactly do you mean by "abuse" our faith?

Saving faith is faith that Jesus is, that He died for our sin and that by trusting in HIm and Him alone for our salvation, we will be in Heaven with God forever. That does not depend on degrees. YOu either believe it or you don't. If you question whether it is true or not, you do not have saving faith.

Frankie
 
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Frankie said:
MF, can you show me what passages in the Bible you believe that teach that if we "abuse" it (or faith), that we will loose it and also what exactly do you mean by "abuse" our faith?

Saving faith is faith that Jesus is, that He died for our sin and that by trusting in HIm and Him alone for our salvation, we will be in Heaven with God forever. That does not depend on degrees. YOu either believe it or you don't. If you question whether it is true or not, you do not have saving faith.

Frankie
Will you answer my question first? "how do you rule out the possibility that to the extent we follow God's will is proportional to the degree of faith we posess in God?"
 
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Frankie

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MormonFriend said:
Will you answer my question first? "how do you rule out the possibility that to the extent we follow God's will is proportional to the degree of faith we posess in God?"
I rule it out because it is not Biblical. I have never read a passage that says that "the extent we follow God's will is proportional to the "degree" of faith we posess in God".

Frankie

Ok, now your turn.
 
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skylark1

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MormonFriend said:
You are a worthy enough reason for responding, as your posts are cordial, sincere, and accurate. It would be hard not to like you. If you sensed negativity in my post, it was directed at the lameness of whoever posted that link page.

Mission rules are strict. I have been through it, and I broke one rule that I recall. I drove someone's car to help them. It wasn't urgent, just a favor. But I realize now the liability issues that can mushroom, multiplied by many thousands of missionaries. Rules are for safety and protection for the good of the whole, which often requires sacrifice of the few. They may seem binding to some, but I know that they are liberating in the final annalisys. When Christ said:
28
¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(New Testament | Matthew11:28 - 30)
.... I am certain that His "yoke" is literally His commandments, or rules, and they lead us to His gift of salvation. The "labour" and being "heavy laden" is the result we find ourselves in when we stray from God's rules.



Hi MF,

I acknowledge that the person who wrote the list was sarcastic and negitive towards the LDS Church.

I can see that many rules, such as the one that you mentioned about not driving other people's cars, are there to help the whole missionary system function smoothly. I can see how it could be a problem if missionaries were involved in accidents, and the problems that would ensue from both damage/loss to property and damage/loss of life to people.

One of the rules that surprised me when I read the list was the little contact that is allowed with a missionaries family. I did not realize that they were only allowed two phone calls home per year. Now, I can better understand a friend's level of excitement when she told me that she had received a phone call from her missionary son. Of course, I would assume that a mother would be very excited to hear from her missionary son even without this rule. One reason that I was surprised by this rule is the emphasis that LDS put on families; families forever, familiy home evening, etc. For a church that promotes family togetherness so much, it is difficult to understand why they would discourage family contact to this extent.

The other rules that surprised me are the rules concerned with being with their assigned companion to the extent that the must even get up and go to bed at the same time, and never go anywhere without them. I find Ammon's explanation that women are so obsessed with LDS missionaries inadequate. It seems like the missionaries are not trusted. If I was required to be with someone night and day, every day, I would gladly get up a little early in order to have a few moments to myself. When they pray, are the missionaries expected to always pray together?
 
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AMMON

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baker said:
Hey all,

Don't get time to post here much anymore but every once in a while I find statements and claims that seem so hard to believe that I just need to challenge.

The following statement was posted by Ammon:


Now, at the risk of showing my insecurity or envy, I need to ask the female posters here to help me validate his claim. Could each one of the female posters here please click on Ammon's "photo icon" ANd tell me how much "hitting on" you would do. Be as creative as you want in your fantasy (ie; if it helps, you can visualize him in the "g" 's or not; whispering sensual things like "and it came to pass"; or just picturing yourself in a menage-a-polyg with him.
biggrin.gif
) However, I would ask of those who enjoy a glass of wine or two to limit your judgement to just one adult beverage for this validation procedure.
kawaii.gif


As always, its good to help out on these tough claims!!!!!!
wink.gif


PS Ammon, all in good fun! But when you tee it up for me, well ....

Below the belt! I'm nearly 33 now with a wife and three kids. At age 19, I had a full head of hair, no glasses, cut body, and youthful features. Give me a break. :p
 
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I have also read the list, and while I do not have my "White Bible" here with me, I do think most of these are fairliy accurate as Ammon said. However, a number of them are reworded terribly and others are just plain commonsense.

Here are some that I find false, misleading, reworded to change meaning, or that are so obvious, it is foolish. I am not going to include his editorial comments because they are so pathetic.

10. Thou shalt bathe frequently.

25. Thou shalt avoid all other church meetings unless thou hast a special assignment or are dragging an investigator.

26. Thou shalt proselyte as much as possible on weekends and holidays.

30. Thou shalt take care of thy physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash thy clothes, clean thy apartment, wash thy car, get thine haircut, and shop for thy Macaroni, Cheese, and peanut butter.

60. Thou shalt never be alone.

84. Thou shalt use the commitment pattern to coerce members into giving you referrals.

86. Thou shalt remember to say thank you to those who feed you.

99. Thou shalt respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert to your own customs and traditions, and whose property you are trying to confiscate through tithing.

109. Thou shalt not suggest or encourage emigration from the local hell-hole to a decent country.

132. Thou shalt not allow sick people to sneeze on you.

150. Thou shalt not drive without a license.

157. Thou shalt be conscious of safety at all times
 
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Fit4Christ

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Visage of Glory said:
He can. I am pretty sure that he is supposed to have a personal prayer and study as well as with his companion.
But then that would violate rule #60 you just posted, wouldn't it?

60. Thou shalt never be alone.
Along those lines, if one is to follow #60 to the letter, wouldn't that mean your companion should be there when you take a shower or feel the call of nature? I know that can be taken as poking fun, but these rules seem very restrictive and I get the impression they must be followed precisely. So, I'm just wondering how literally these need to be taken?

Another example is rule #30, specifically the "shop for thy Macaroni, Cheese, and peanut butter"? Is it really a rule that they must eat those? Or is it referring to buying groceries in general? If it's buying groceries in general, why not just say so?

30. Thou shalt take care of thy physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash thy clothes, clean thy apartment, wash thy car, get thine haircut, and shop for thy Macaroni, Cheese, and peanut butter.
Thanks!:D
 
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Doc T

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Fit4Christ said:
But then that would violate rule #60 you just posted, wouldn't it?


Along those lines, if one is to follow #60 to the letter, wouldn't that mean your companion should be there when you take a shower or feel the call of nature? I know that can be taken as poking fun, but these rules seem very restrictive and I get the impression they must be followed precisely. So, I'm just wondering how literally these need to be taken?

Another example is rule #30, specifically the "shop for thy Macaroni, Cheese, and peanut butter"? Is it really a rule that they must eat those? Or is it referring to buying groceries in general? If it's buying groceries in general, why not just say so?


Thanks!:D

Fit4Christ, I think that you missed VofG's statement where he said concerning that list:

Here are some that I find false, misleading, reworded to change meaning, or that are so obvious, it is foolish. I am not going to include his editorial comments because they are so pathetic.

Doc
 
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baker

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Ammon said:
Below the belt! I'm nearly 33 now with a wife and three kids. At age 19, I had a full head of hair, no glasses, cut body, and youthful features. Give me a break. :p
I wish I was 33 again. You're not even close to being old and tired yet!!!

Fair enough though, perhaps a bit below the belt.

Tell you what: Go ahead and post one of your 19 year old pics here and well start again. Choose the best one in your portfolio. But hey, no airbrushing allowed;) !!!!!!

(get ready for the restart gals)
 
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baker said:
I wish I was 33 again. You're not even close to being old and tired yet!!!

Fair enough though, perhaps a bit below the belt.

Tell you what: Go ahead and post one of your 19 year old pics here and well start again. Choose the best one in your portfolio. But hey, no airbrushing allowed;) !!!!!!

(get ready for the restart gals)

How do you post a photo? I have a good one from when I was at the LTM (Language Training Mission)
 
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Frankie said:
I rule it out because it is not Biblical. I have never read a passage that says that "the extent we follow God's will is proportional to the "degree" of faith we posess in God".

Frankie

Ok, now your turn.
I'll get to my turn next.

Are you serious that if something is not specifically stated in the Bible, that you rule out its possibility? Many things can be derived and established by the mention of other things. Of course this can be dangerous in spiritual matters if one does not have the influence of the Holy Spirit. Churches have been know to split and divide over conjecture.

Also, not everything is in the Bible. For example:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; (New Testament | Hebrews 5:12)

The Hebrews were taught these "first principles of the oracles of God" on a prior occasion. Where is this found? I brought this up in another thread and it was never dealt with.


You can derive much from this scripture regarding faith by degrees by strengthening and conversion. Also the fact that faith can be lossed.
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(New Testament | Luke 22:32)
 
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Frankie said:
MF, can you show me what passages in the Bible you believe that teach that if we "abuse" it (or faith), that we will loose it and also what exactly do you mean by "abuse" our faith?

Saving faith is faith that Jesus is, that He died for our sin and that by trusting in HIm and Him alone for our salvation, we will be in Heaven with God forever. That does not depend on degrees. YOu either believe it or you don't. If you question whether it is true or not, you do not have saving faith.

Frankie


Faith can fail!

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren
(New Testament | Luke 22:32)


Did the disciples have faith? Of course they did, but it varied at times.
And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

And he said unto them, Where is your faith?
(Luke 8:24 - 25)

You ask how faith can be abused. I consider "abuse" to be using something contrary to its design.

Faith is to be obeyed, and a saving faith, in my opinion, is the result of being true to our faith. The natural result of obedinece to our faith (if the faith is true) will yield those most important things you listed as a saving faith, regarding Jesus.

So to disobey our faith (belief) is an abuse of our faith, and will likely be the cause of losing our faith as mentioned in Luke 22.


By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: (Romans 1:5)

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (Romans 16:26)

You stated about faith: "YOu either believe it or you don't."
It appears the the measuring stick of our belief is "the obedience of faith."
 
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skylark1 said:
Hi MF,

.......

One of the rules that surprised me when I read the list was the little contact that is allowed with a missionaries family. I did not realize that they were only allowed two phone calls home per year. Now, I can better understand a friend's level of excitement when she told me that she had received a phone call from her missionary son. Of course, I would assume that a mother would be very excited to hear from her missionary son even without this rule. One reason that I was surprised by this rule is the emphasis that LDS put on families; families forever, familiy home evening, etc. For a church that promotes family togetherness so much, it is difficult to understand why they would discourage family contact to this extent.
A lot of what you perceive is culture. I grew up knowing that this is how it is done. It surely seems "peculiar" to those outside of our faith, and that to us is a compliment.

The minimal communication is accepted before we go. It establishes a standard as to the degree of devotion we give to the Lord. Sacrafices are integral with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it helps prepare youth for greater responsibility and leadership. Writing letters to home weekly is a rule.

Also, there are a miriad of variables to consider about the rules. When I was in Argentina, it would cost a fortune for a three minute call. (Another rule I broke, my parents called me in Argentina to give me the news that my little brother was called to my same mission, and we served as companions for 3 months.)


skylark1 said:
The other rules that surprised me are the rules concerned with being with their assigned companion to the extent that the must even get up and go to bed at the same time, and never go anywhere without them. I find Ammon's explanation that women are so obsessed with LDS missionaries inadequate. It seems like the missionaries are not trusted. If I was required to be with someone night and day, every day, I would gladly get up a little early in order to have a few moments to myself. When they pray, are the missionaries expected to always pray together?
My understanding of the rule of being with your companion is in sight, or within earshot in some cases. While teaching a young woman in Argentina about repentance, she broke down and cried, saying that she was not a bad person. She was apparently having guilt conflict with our lesson. This situation was not in the handbook, and I used instincts and grabbed her hand, clasped in both my hands. My companion sensed the need for confidential communication, and he excused himself to the next room. Things worked out well, but I could tell by that experience, how emotions can take over very quickly. I was glad my comp. was near.

Often times we had to travel alone. You are correct that the missionaries are not given full trust. They are trusted by the fact that they are sent. But most of us hardly have the experiences to know if we can trust ourselves at that point.

I was not regularly "hit" on, but there were a couple of times. Many foreign girls would love an instant citizenship to the USA, and naive young Elders are that ticket. We were counseled not to take a foreign wife home, stating that when they break down, it is hard to find replacement parts. (just checking to see if you are actually reading all of this)
We taught and baptized a family that had two young ladies close to our age. They were a very sincere family, but I know now in retrospect, that they wanted a better life for their daughters than Argentina could provide. (They were Hungarian)

With a missionary program so large, using young men, barely out of boyhood, rules are a must. You probably will not fully comprehend this, but I accepted these rules as if by the Lord Himself. To this day I am greatful for this foundation of discipline, where I have seen so much advantage over others in the job market.
 
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AMMON

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Why does this thread continue? I am confused. As noted, supra, the mission is like the military. Missionaries understand that by enlisting for service, they voluntarily agree to subject themselves to very strict rules of conduct, just as a Marine does. This they do of their own free will. Thus, what is the point of arguing or even discussing the reasoning behind the rules? It's not as if the missionaries are being forced against their will to obey said rules. Thus, as I see it,this is a nonissue... a red herring designed to stir discontent and criticism where none should be. The rules exist for whatever reason; the important thing is that missionaries accept the rules willingly and of their own free will. This is their right, and they elect to excerise it. End of story.
 
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Frankie

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baker said:
Well, based on all the "PM's" I received, I think it's because most of the gals want to see those studly pics of you at age 19.

Come on now, with all that "hitting on" that was happening, don't be bashful!!!!:clap:
baker, women on this forum are actually PMing you, telling you that they "want" to see a picture of Ammon at age 19?
 
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