- Oct 7, 2011
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I am asking this to see if I might satisfy my curiosity on something. The question is this.
What is it about the full preterist creed that all end time prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD that would prevent the consideration that there might be of two great bodies of end time prophecy rather than just one? Here are a few verses to show what I mean. There are a ton more but these should suffice.
Daniel 8:19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce expression, skilled in intrigues, shall stand up. 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and accomplish, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.....
Now every good preterist worth their salt understands that this is a prophecy about a "final period of wrath" that started with the wars between the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt with a very unfortunate Judea in the middle. It culminated with Rome conquering those two remaining portions of the Greek empire. The rise of Herod the king then the Messiah culminating with Judea's destruction in 70 AD. (at the time appointed the end shall be.) Obviously, Jesus prophesied about this end of the OT age coming upon the generation he was ministering to in Matt, 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Plus there is chapter upon chapter of other prophecies on it.
Here though we have an entirely different scenario. The end times of the four Gentile Empires which turned out to be an age in and of itself.
Daniel 7:23. So he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and crush it. 24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be different from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26. But the court will sit, and they shall take away his empire, to consume and to destroy it until the end. 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him.
There is just a bit of history I need to go through before I elucidate my question a little more. The capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333AD. An emperor sat on the throne until 1453 when that last segment of the Roman Empire was conquered by the Turks and the last emperor killed. This split is prophesied (in Revelation) as the lamb with two horns (signifying the eastern and western branches and their claims of Christianity.) But still spoke as a dragon.
Without going through all the minutia of the 11 chapters of Revelation about the end of the age of the four gentile empires. (Yes a chapters worth of it talks of the destruction of Jerusalem.) What is fascinating, or shall I say determining. The very year that empire ended was the very beginning of things that occurred in the world that never happened before.
1. For the first time in history. Within a few decades the Bible (illegally mind you) got into the hands of the common man and in their own languages to boot. This occurred in Northern Europe
2. Second. For the first time in history outside of ancient Israel. The powers that existed were not able to conquer and exterminate the people in a location that was gaining influence from the scripture. This was at a cost of tens of millions of lives.
3. The Americas' were discovered and these Bible reading Northern Europeans were able to migrate to North America and set up experimental colonies based in their understanding of Biblical principle.
4. Another first in human history. Through these circumstances the free world was created and then another first in human history occurred outside of ancient Israel. The earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints that were never able to be fulfilled because the conditions for their fulfillment were never meet. In these free nations were a minimum amount of conditions have been met. These earthly promises have been being fulfilled in the lives of Gods people.
5. Even though it is not a straight line upward. This phenomena of free nations continues to grow in the earth. Plus a billion people have become Christians in the last 50 years and if the trend continues 2 billion more will become Christians in the next 30 years.
6. What has emerged in all of this is that the nations who are the most influenced by the Gospel, by the Bible, by the invisible government of God have been dominate in the earth as per Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him. Yes lots of Gog and Magog type countries and people have tried to conquer the lands influenced by the Bible since then. Always seems like they are going to win and though they win some battles they have never won the war...it continues to this day.
I wrote all this to at least give a veneer of credibility to my question that I want to expand on. Lets just say for arguments sake that I am right. Purely for arguments sake. Don't answer because that is not what the scripture teaches. Lets just pretend that it does. If this were true. What would be the full preterist objection to it? What is the world view the full preterist might have that this would threaten? Philosophically, ideologically, why would it not fit into what full preterists believe the future holds? See because that is what I don't understand. In my years of conversations with full preterists all I ever get is this super dogmatic response that all end time prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD that goes way beyond what I think is reasonable. Most of them agree with me on the future. I mean it is not the end times, there are not specific end time prophecies in the Bible about our future but end type scenarios will most likely continue to arise. The influence of the invisible government of God continues to grow in the earth. We whole heartadly agree on the incredible damage the dispensationalists, sensationalists, pre, mid, post tribers are doing to the cause of Christ in the earth. I just don't get the response I have gotten. Is there something I am missing? I have been tempted to just chaulk it up to a sectarian spirit but that is a harsh judgment. So can any full preterist read this and think about it and tell me if I am missing something about full preterism that would make the scenario I painted un-acceptable under all circumstances? Please, no other views here by the end time crowd unless you have some light for me on my question. Don't post what you believe about the end times. You have a hundred other threads you can do that on. I am seeking an answer. I'm not really seeking to convince others they are wrong.
What is it about the full preterist creed that all end time prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD that would prevent the consideration that there might be of two great bodies of end time prophecy rather than just one? Here are a few verses to show what I mean. There are a ton more but these should suffice.
Daniel 8:19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce expression, skilled in intrigues, shall stand up. 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and accomplish, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.....
Now every good preterist worth their salt understands that this is a prophecy about a "final period of wrath" that started with the wars between the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt with a very unfortunate Judea in the middle. It culminated with Rome conquering those two remaining portions of the Greek empire. The rise of Herod the king then the Messiah culminating with Judea's destruction in 70 AD. (at the time appointed the end shall be.) Obviously, Jesus prophesied about this end of the OT age coming upon the generation he was ministering to in Matt, 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Plus there is chapter upon chapter of other prophecies on it.
Here though we have an entirely different scenario. The end times of the four Gentile Empires which turned out to be an age in and of itself.
Daniel 7:23. So he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and crush it. 24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be different from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26. But the court will sit, and they shall take away his empire, to consume and to destroy it until the end. 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him.
There is just a bit of history I need to go through before I elucidate my question a little more. The capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333AD. An emperor sat on the throne until 1453 when that last segment of the Roman Empire was conquered by the Turks and the last emperor killed. This split is prophesied (in Revelation) as the lamb with two horns (signifying the eastern and western branches and their claims of Christianity.) But still spoke as a dragon.
Without going through all the minutia of the 11 chapters of Revelation about the end of the age of the four gentile empires. (Yes a chapters worth of it talks of the destruction of Jerusalem.) What is fascinating, or shall I say determining. The very year that empire ended was the very beginning of things that occurred in the world that never happened before.
1. For the first time in history. Within a few decades the Bible (illegally mind you) got into the hands of the common man and in their own languages to boot. This occurred in Northern Europe
2. Second. For the first time in history outside of ancient Israel. The powers that existed were not able to conquer and exterminate the people in a location that was gaining influence from the scripture. This was at a cost of tens of millions of lives.
3. The Americas' were discovered and these Bible reading Northern Europeans were able to migrate to North America and set up experimental colonies based in their understanding of Biblical principle.
4. Another first in human history. Through these circumstances the free world was created and then another first in human history occurred outside of ancient Israel. The earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints that were never able to be fulfilled because the conditions for their fulfillment were never meet. In these free nations were a minimum amount of conditions have been met. These earthly promises have been being fulfilled in the lives of Gods people.
5. Even though it is not a straight line upward. This phenomena of free nations continues to grow in the earth. Plus a billion people have become Christians in the last 50 years and if the trend continues 2 billion more will become Christians in the next 30 years.
6. What has emerged in all of this is that the nations who are the most influenced by the Gospel, by the Bible, by the invisible government of God have been dominate in the earth as per Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him. Yes lots of Gog and Magog type countries and people have tried to conquer the lands influenced by the Bible since then. Always seems like they are going to win and though they win some battles they have never won the war...it continues to this day.
I wrote all this to at least give a veneer of credibility to my question that I want to expand on. Lets just say for arguments sake that I am right. Purely for arguments sake. Don't answer because that is not what the scripture teaches. Lets just pretend that it does. If this were true. What would be the full preterist objection to it? What is the world view the full preterist might have that this would threaten? Philosophically, ideologically, why would it not fit into what full preterists believe the future holds? See because that is what I don't understand. In my years of conversations with full preterists all I ever get is this super dogmatic response that all end time prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD that goes way beyond what I think is reasonable. Most of them agree with me on the future. I mean it is not the end times, there are not specific end time prophecies in the Bible about our future but end type scenarios will most likely continue to arise. The influence of the invisible government of God continues to grow in the earth. We whole heartadly agree on the incredible damage the dispensationalists, sensationalists, pre, mid, post tribers are doing to the cause of Christ in the earth. I just don't get the response I have gotten. Is there something I am missing? I have been tempted to just chaulk it up to a sectarian spirit but that is a harsh judgment. So can any full preterist read this and think about it and tell me if I am missing something about full preterism that would make the scenario I painted un-acceptable under all circumstances? Please, no other views here by the end time crowd unless you have some light for me on my question. Don't post what you believe about the end times. You have a hundred other threads you can do that on. I am seeking an answer. I'm not really seeking to convince others they are wrong.
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