Question for BAPTISTS. ONLY BAPTISTS

[daveleau]

I agree with 2 of his points out of the 5. (TP)

 

[theseed]

To most non-Calvinists all Calvinists are hyper-.

True, and we must stand against it, otherwise, it could cause problems with evangelical efforts.

 

[Beoga]

after some time and studying, i am now 5 point calvinist

 

[ksen]

after some time and studying, i am now 5 point calvinist

Excellent!

If you don't mind my asking, what was it that made you finally "get it?"

 

[the Colonel]

I believe in point 1 of Calvanism. I do not agree with point 5 of Calvanism in the manner it is presented.

 

[BT]

Good Day, BT

Would you please unpack the the meaning you give these 2 phases, how are they the same IYO, how and why are they different, in relation to your understanding of Calvinism.

Peace to u,

Bill

Hi Bill. Yes I will unpack it as best I can.

The calvinist will say that what "perseverance of the saints" means is Once saved always saved, which sounds like what is often referred to as Eternal Security. On closer scrutiny we see that what this point is really saying is that a Christian will and must persevere in his faith to the end. Which is not what the Bible says. The true ground of assurance for the believer is the finished work of Christ as presented in the Word of God, and appropriated by faith. In other words, the blood of Christ makes me safe and the Word of God makes me sure. But the calvinist is urged to look to his own perseverance.

Secular historian G.R. Elton in his book "Reformation Europe 1517-1559" writes:
"Calvin did not regard the elect as saints on earth, or think that conviction of election was proof of it; only God knows whom He has chosen, though the decree is irreversible and the elect cannot fall from grace. But since no one knows which side of the coin he is on, all men must live in hope rather than certainty of salvation."

Calvin followed Augustine on this point, who had taught that no one knew for sure if he had been given the gift or perseverance. In other words a person may live like an elect person for many years in hope that he is among God's elect, only to fall away at the end and to discover that he had not been given the gift of perseverance.

This point as all other points is derived from a syllogism:

The elect exhibit certain signs which accompany salvation.
At present I exhibit these signs.
Therefore, provided I persevere, I am among the elect.

Thus the ground of assurance is shifted from the finished work of Christ to a subjective experience of perseverance.

This is the dilemna for the calvinist. No one who is chosen, called and justified can fall away, yet there are those who profess to become Christians and later desert the faith

Calvinist writer R.T. Kendall in his book "Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649, p.211)
"The question of perseverance remains. At first glance Westminster theology seems to have polarised itself against the Armenian hypothesis that the regenerate man can fall. But not so; by taking back assurance from those wo fall grievously into sin, the subject becomes suspect - both in his own eyes and in the eyes of others - in that he is back to zero, as it were, in his relationship to God. If he dies in a fallen condition, neither Westminster theology nor Arminius grant for sure that he is elected."


Michael Eaton ( a once calvinist until he began to seek assurance) says that many sincere Christians in Calvinist circles are haunted by doubts. He comments on the introspection that characterises Calvanism in his book "A Theology of Encouragement" as thus:
"I have already urged that introspection is implicit in many aspects of the Reformed doctrine of grace in late Calvinism. Now I wish to underline the fact that the most intense introspection follows if many or all of these emphases are combined. If Christ did not die for all, and if it is possible to have a sorrow for sin that is not true repentance, a faith which is not faith, a possessing of the Spirit which falls short of true regeneration, if despite any and every 'experience' of the gospel there is a way to Hell even from the Gates of Heaven, if Paul himself feared loss of salvation, then what remains of the Calvinist's assurance? It has died the death of a thousand qualifications."


This started with a question about how many baptists believed in calvinism. I only stated that I do not believe in any of the points of calvinism (in their entirety). This was a poll post that turned into a defense of what I believe as opposed to what others believe. I do not wish to debate calvinism here, that is not what I wanted. I have a baptist friend here who recently returned from Detroit Theological Seminary and during an M.Div course we were taking on dispensationalism told me that he was leaning hard towards calvinism. I merely wanted to see if this was a trend in Baptist churches or not. I read your other post, thank you. No I do not want to debate with Dr. White, I am not a hyper-anti-Calvinist. I do not believe in Calvinism because John Calvin based his points upon syllogistic logic and the work of Augustine rather than sound biblical doctrine.

I'm sorry that this got into such a debate. I did not intend it to.

BT

 

[Tractor1]

Hopefully the title of this thread will help it to achieve its desired result.


Please answer the following question. Fill in the blank ....

I am a ___ point calvinist.


I'll answer it first....

I am a 0 point calvinist.

I'm just trying to gauge the pentetration of reformed Baptists. If you don't understand the question just don't answer. If you want an explanation you can PM me.

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD. THIS THREAD IS FOR BAPTIST/ANABAPTIST POSTERS.

Thanks

Four point!

(1) Total inabiltiy of the fallen man.

(2) Unconditional election.

(3) Efficacious divine grace.

(4) The perseverance of the saints.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Beoga]

Excellent!

If you don't mind my asking, what was it that made you finally "get it?"

Two many scripture verses that I could not explain away. It doesn't contradict what other verses teach. The realization that God is Sovereign and this belief brings more Glory and it elevates God and brings man low. The realization that the only way that me, a sinner dead in his sins who loved the sins dearly, could be saved is if God first saved me. And finally the realization that I could now be secure in my walk with Him and to not have to look to myself to pull myself up and get things right.

 

[Sola Gratia]

Two many scripture verses that I could not explain away. It doesn't contradict what other verses teach. The realization that God is Sovereign and this belief brings more Glory and it elevates God and brings man low. The realization that the only way that me, a sinner dead in his sins who loved the sins dearly, could be saved is if God first saved me. And finally the realization that I could now be secure in my walk with Him and to not have to look to myself to pull myself up and get things right.

Same for me

 

[theseed]

BT, noticed your reply to Bill about syllogism, and I will say that is a Baptist teaching as well, espec, in the BFM, but that is SBC (Calvinist).

Because believers bear the fruit of the Spirit, they persevere and are made unto good works through sanctification. However, the works are only a sign.

According to the website I posted in another thread, Calvin taught that election was not something abstract. And that includes faith as one of the works.

Here is an essay on the topic.

http://www.girs.com/library/theology/dm_assure.html