Question concerning eternal life

[DailyBlessings]

If all of us live out an eternal fate, some of us in eternal happiness, and some in eternal torment... then why does Christ promise us eternal life? If the conservative notion of heaven/hell reflects the truth, then wouldn't we all have eternal life, albeit extremely unpleasant for some?

 

[Ben johnson]

If all of us live out an eternal fate, some of us in eternal happiness, and some in eternal torment... then why does Christ promise us eternal life? If the conservative notion of heaven/hell reflects the truth, then wouldn't we all have eternal life, albeit extremely unpleasant for some?

He promises "life", to those who BELIEVE. Only unbelief is condemned (1Jn5:10).

Yet --- Christianity is far more than MERE belief (James2:19). Per Rom6, we are "saved", when united with Jesus in His DEATH. When He was crucified, our old sinful self was right up there with Him. THEN --- in verse 4, Paul says "as God raised Jesus from the dead, so too shall WE walk in newness of life." We are united --- ALSO --- in His resurrection.

If we read the rest of Rom6, we see that "walking in Christ rather than walking in fleshly sin", is a choice.

In ch7, Paul recounts a WAR --- between the old dead sin nature, and the NEW born-again nature. Clearly, the old nature is not gone. In despair, Paul cries: "I try to do right, but do the wrong I do not want to do; wretched man that I am, who will FREE me from this war within my members?"

In ch8, is the solution. We are under obligation --- not to walk in the flesh, serving its lusts (if we DO we MUST DIE) --- but if, by the Spirit, we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we will live.

Notice --- that though "walking" is fully choice, either in sin or in Christ, it is the power of the SPIRIT that overcomes our sin.

Thus, "By Grace, Through Faith". From beginning faith, to ending faith.

Please read Rom2:6-8; eternal life is granted to those WHO by doing good seek glory and honor and immortality --- but to those who seek unrighteousness, they receive only wrath and indignation.

I hope your question was answered?

 

[Van]

Hi Daily Blessing, there are two views of the meaning of eternal life. First it lasts forever, with no end. This is demonstrated by John 3:16, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. If you never perish, then you exist forever. But in addition to this meaning, a second idea is that God is eternal, and therefore eternal life indicates life in union with God. For example, a secondary meaning could be life forever with the Eternal God.

Now for the "eternal existence" of those tossed into the lake of fire. Whoever is tossed in undergoes eternal punishment in eternal darkness. Whatever this means, it does not carry the secondary meaning of fellowshiping with God, so we do not call it eternal "life" but rather eternal punishment.

 

[DailyBlessings]

He promises "life", to those who BELIEVE. Only unbelief is condemned (1Jn5:10).

Yet --- Christianity is far more than MERE belief (James2:19). Per Rom6, we are "saved", when united with Jesus in His DEATH. When He was crucified, our old sinful self was right up there with Him. THEN --- in verse 4, Paul says "as God raised Jesus from the dead, so too shall WE walk in newness of life." We are united --- ALSO --- in His resurrection.

If we read the rest of Rom6, we see that "walking in Christ rather than walking in fleshly sin", is a choice.

In ch7, Paul recounts a WAR --- between the old dead sin nature, and the NEW born-again nature. Clearly, the old nature is not gone. In despair, Paul cries: "I try to do right, but do the wrong I do not want to do; wretched man that I am, who will FREE me from this war within my members?"

In ch8, is the solution. We are under obligation --- not to walk in the flesh, serving its lusts (if we DO we MUST DIE) --- but if, by the Spirit, we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we will live.

Notice --- that though "walking" is fully choice, either in sin or in Christ, it is the power of the SPIRIT that overcomes our sin.

Thus, "By Grace, Through Faith". From beginning faith, to ending faith.

Please read Rom2:6-8; eternal life is granted to those WHO by doing good seek glory and honor and immortality --- but to those who seek unrighteousness, they receive only wrath and indignation.

I hope your question was answered?

All this I think I understand well enough and agree with. What I do not understand is the concept of Hell, in relation to it. It seems to me, in my limited knowledge of the subject, that what some propose is an eternal afterlife for everyone, whether or not they believe in Christ and are so saved from the power of death. For even if someone is in Hell, aren't they alive, in so being? I don't understand how Hell fits into Christian theology.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Hi Daily Blessing, there are two views of the meaning of eternal life. First it lasts forever, with no end. This is demonstrated by John 3:16, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. If you never perish, then you exist forever. But in addition to this meaning, a second idea is that God is eternal, and therefore eternal life indicates life in union with God. For example, a secondary meaning could be life forever with the Eternal God.

This is how I have always understood it (since what is time to God?)

Now for the "eternal existence" of those tossed into the lake of fire. Whoever is tossed in undergoes eternal punishment in eternal darkness. Whatever this means, it does not carry the secondary meaning of fellowshiping with God, so we do not call it eternal "life" but rather eternal punishment.

This is the part that confuses me. How can someone exist, have a consciousness and the ability to feel agony, if they are not alive? Jesus' words would make more sense to me, if those who do not believe simply die, and cease to exist. Yet annihilationism is considered heretical. So, why is this?

 

[Van]

The New Testament speaks of two places in the afterlife of the unsaved. Hades and Gehenna. One of the first things I did in trying to get a handle on the concept of Hell was to put a "H" or a "G" next to every verse that said "hell."

Hades is where the spirits of the unsaved go when the person dies. So it is in a spiritual realm. And it is a temporary holding place, from when a person dies until the second coming of Christ. Now exactly when the Great White Throne Judgement occurs I do not know, but it is after Christ returns. And then the spirits that are in Hades are united with their resurrected bodies, the resurrection of the dead, the second resurrection, and they stand before the Great White Throne with Christ as the Judge. Everyone whose name is not written in the lambs book of life is judged according to the deeds they have done, and then they are tossed into the lake of Fire. Here they suffer punishment for their deeds, and remain forever in eternal darkness. At this point their is no need for death (personification of the mortality of mankind) and Hades, now empty because all the spirits have been united with the bodies, and therefore death and Hades are thrown into the lake of Fire.

This is the Christian view of Hell. If we go into more detail, then various segments of the Body hold differing views. For example does everyone suffer the same punishment for their deeds, or does the punishment vary with each individual. There is no agreement on this matter.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

 

[Ben johnson]

Yet annihilationism is considered heretical. So, why is this?

Why is it considered "heretical"? In Matt10:28, Jesus said "Do not fear he who can kill the body, but not the soul; but fear he who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." Some say "apollumi" means "eternity in Hell", some say it means "literally destroy". If those in Heaven can SEE those in Hell (as in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man), it would be nice to think they'll not be there forever --- I'm willing to consider whatever view that is Scriptural. But the bottom line, is that no one goes to Hell except by conscious choice.

And in Heaven, we will be surrounded by God's glory and His love, so Hell will no longer be an issue for us.

Please understand "God does not send people to Hell"; those who consciously reject Him, well He has no other place to send them. Those who go have sent themselves.

Whatever Hell is, whether it's "eternal" or "ends" (clearly, it's eternal for bad-angels) --- I know I'm not goin' there.

Even though the world should end, and the Tribulation begin; even though I'm arrested for my faith, and sent before a firing squad. Jesus is my reality, and I could no more deny Him than I could cease breathing. And if they kill me, and I DO cease breathing, I shall serve Him and live with Him, forever.

Hell doesn't matter, to those who believe.

 

[nobdysfool]

Good dodge, Ben, but essentially correct in refocusing on what we have as Christians, rather than what will happen to those who aren't. I find such speculation rather like the old joke about W.C. Fields, who, when he was in the hospital dying, was asked by a friend who stopped in and was shocked to see him reading a Bible, "Bill, what are you doing reading a Bible?" W. C. replied, "Looking for loopholes.....". ( it's even funnier if you can imagine W. C. in his unique delivery, saying that)

People, especially the unsaved, who ask and obsess about what happens to the lost, aren't really concerned about the lost at all, they are looking for a way to justify their refusal to believe.

 

[DailyBlessings]

People, especially the unsaved, who ask and obsess about what happens to the lost, aren't really concerned about the lost at all, they are looking for a way to justify their refusal to believe.

Are you saying that we shouldn't be concerned about the fate of others?

 

[Ben johnson]

Are you saying that we shouldn't be concerned about the fate of others?

This wasn't addressed to me -- forgive the intrusion?

Someone once asked me "if I thought it was God's will for us to save people". I answered without thinking, "Of course!"

He said, "No, it's not; there is ONE Savior, and neither of us is Him. We're only commanded to LOVE people, and to share Jesus with them."

That's the stark truth; we can't make anyone believe.

If they choose Hell, it's their choice. With all that I am, I believe God cries for each soul lost to Hell.

...and, I'm sure, when I see people cast into there, I'll cry too.

I wish everyone could be saved; but all I can do, is to ask God: "Please, make me into whatever You need to reach them with Your grace."

We can't prevent anyone from perishing, nor can we change those that do. NBF is right, "focus on Jesus, and accept what we cannot change."

Our "concern over their fate", is to tell them of Jesus. I've missed many opportunities; but I've made so many, also. Telemarketers, people in stores --- and there are those God has SENT me. Two male witches, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, a Moony (follower of Sun Yung Moon), Atheists and Agnostics, I pray something I said was a seed in their hearts for Jesus.

Debate is fun; but let us grow mature in Him, and unselfish enough to truly love those in the world, who are hurting, lost and dying. We are the same as them --- if not for His grace, we would be cast into Hell, also.

 

[Van]

Hi Daily Blessings, the reason some views are considered heretical is that they differ from the accepted view of those branding the views as heretical. Thus if the accepted view accurately reflects scripture, then a heretical view would be false doctrine and evil. However, if the widely accepted view is wrong, such as the views of the Pharisees at the time of Christ, then the "heretical" view, the non-orthodox view might or might not actually present the scriptural position. In summary, since it is man that applies the label, a view should not be discarded because it has been labeled "heretical." Rather, the scriptural basis for determining if a view accurately reflects God's word, is the key for accepting or rejecting a view.

Now lets take the idea that when you die, rather than your spirit departing and going to be with Christ (for the saved) or going to Hades (for the lost) some groups say the human spirits of the lost simply cease to exist, and they try to support this using Old Testament verses. However, in light of the words of Jesus, who often refers to God's punishment of the lost in Hades and Hell (Gehenna), to nullify these passages seems to the vast majority of Christians to be wrong. Thus this view, Hell does not exist and the lost are annililated at physical death is outside the widely accepted view and therefore is considered heretical by the vast majority of Christians.

Next, there is a group, who call themselves conditionalists, who believe Hell exists, and the lost will undergo torment and punishment, and will be deprived of fellowship with God forever, eternal punishment in eternal darkness. But after ungoing punishment for the deeds they have done, their existence ends. So basically they believe in everything the mainstream folks believe in except eternal torment. This view is gaining favor within the Body, but is still a minority view and therefore has also been labled heretical by many Christians and Christian organizations. I am not sure what the rules are today, but in the past, this view could not be advocated on this forum because it is a form of annililationism.

And finally the mainstream view that being tossed into the lake of fire results in eternal torment, the person is aware forever of his pain and suffering. This view is based on the passage (Revelation 14:9-11) that says at least some of the lost (those that worshipped the beast) will suffer day and night, with no duration given but inferred to be forever, and the smoke of their torment goes up forever, inferred to mean there is on going torment generating the smoke forever.

I hope this answers your question as to why many but not all Christians view the views other than eternal torment heretical.

 

[RussT]

If all of us live out an eternal fate, some of us in eternal happiness, and some in eternal torment... then why does Christ promise us eternal life? If the conservative notion of heaven/hell reflects the truth, then wouldn't we all have eternal life, albeit extremely unpleasant for some?

For even if someone is in Hell, aren't they alive, in so being? I don't understand how Hell fits into Christian theology.

This is the part that confuses me. How can someone exist, have a consciousness and the ability to feel agony, if they are not alive? Jesus' words would make more sense to me, if those who do not believe simply die, and cease to exist.

In my understanding, 'existence' is not synonomous with 'life' in the sense in which it is used in Scripture. Rather, 'death' and 'life' are both states of existence. Paul says that 'just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.' (Rom. 5:12) John says, "he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

I existed before I called Jesus, Lord, and I exist even now; however, before I was in a state of 'death', and now I have (eternal) life. As far as I can determine from Scripture, all souls will continue to exist, either with God or without Him. The abudance of Life is ours in Jesus both now and forever.

In Christ,
Russ