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Question abt Calvinism

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Andrew, May 24, 2002.

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  1. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Limited Atonement
    Some Calvinists have shared with me that Christ did not shed his blood for all mankind, but only for those 'predestined' for heaven.

    IOW, they maintain that all those scriptures which say "all" men actually mean "many" (and we argued extensively abt the meaning of 'all' vs 'many'!).

    They also reasoned that it was "ridiculous" or "beneath" Jesus (sort of like a 'waste' of his blood) to shed his blood for those who would end up in hell.

    My question: Dont Calvinist believe that ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, no thanks to Adam? So if they do, then how can the last Adam's work be a much more compared to the first Adam's (as stated in Rom 5) when the former's work affected all mankind whereas Jesus' work affects only an elect group? ie If sin affects all, but grace was shed only for some, how can Jesus work be a "much more" than Adam's sinning and its effects

    in relation to this:

    Ro 5:18
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


    Why do Calvinist (the ones I've talked to) interpret "all" in the first instance to mean "all" but in the same breath/verse interpret "all" in the second instance to mean "many". where is the consistency in interpretation? :scratch:
     
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  2. niwde

    niwde Member

    256
    +1
    if they come and asked u again
    ask them whether those who are diestined to go to hell
    where damn by god since the day that individual was comceive in the mother's womb
    if it was like that
    why worship a God that "love" us
    tell them people should rather worship satan
    what is the use of standing for god
    if god doesn't want u
    u stand by him,u still do not get to go to heavn
    that is so stupid
    makes no sense at all
    this a cult
    making own conclusions
    what is this rubbish
    some fellow even came up with an idea that christ did not die on the cross but was replaced and jesus flead to india
    and a city named after him
    what is this
    ask those fellows to read the last chapter of john
     
  3. WayneH

    WayneH Washed in His Blood

    583
    +6
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    A saying I learned many years ago..


    ALL MEANS ALL - and thats all ALL means... not many - but ALL...
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Well look at the verses..all that BELIEVE. that's not all. :)
     
  5. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
    +0
    Christian
    Hmm... I don't see "that believe" in any translation nor in the Greek. Where does that apposition come from?
     
  6. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." - Romans 9:10-13

    Calvinism states that if someone "stand by him", obeying Him, then that person will go to Heaven. There is never a case according to Calvinism where a person truly serves God and doesn't go to Heaven. All that truly serve God are Elect.

    Excuse me? Are you comparing Calvinism to nonsensical "jesus flead[sp] to india" cult?! :sigh:
    Please do not advocate this tripe, comparing my belief system to an outlandish, heretical cult. You don't see me calling the Roman Catholic Church the "Whore of Babylon", now do you? :scratch:
     
  7. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>Jesus' work affects only an elect group?

    Every is affected, because now everyone has a choice. If Jesus did not provide a way, then no one would have a choice, there would be no plan of redemption.

    God is blameless, because He is no respector of persons. Everyone has the same opportunity or chance before Him. If He favored one group over another, then He would be showing favortism.
     
  8. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    +12
    See? That is what is wrong with these types of "discussions". You end up discussing what "some calvinists say". Baloney! People are either a Calvinist or they are not. Calvin was very CLEAR in his beliefs, so you embrace them or not. It is not a matter of "SOME Calvinists say". If they don't say what CALVIN said, they are NOT Calvinists!

    Why do you not start this discussin by listing the POINTS OF CALVINISM and let Calin speak for himself?
     
  9. niwde

    niwde Member

    256
    +1
    this is rubbish
    if i got the money
    i can even come out and declare some nonsense
    if u do not like the word cult
    then i will use the word,distorted from the truth
    if it is like that
    it will not be surprising in a hundred or 500 hundred years time,some great fellow will come out and claim that he is the decendant of jesus,or jesus had a wife or any other kind if utter rubbish

    i am sorry
    if u r angry with this
    but this is the truth
    it might happen in the near future
     
  10. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0

    We don't have to wait 500 years, we've already had some occupying a chair heading up an institution, who have claimed to be GOD on EARTH.

    ..and have power to forgive SIN


    This is BLASPHEMEOUS


    RICHARD
     
  11. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    WHAT THE HECK IS THIS?! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    Are you trying to compare Calvinism to a cult that says "some great fellow will come out and claim that he is the decendant of jesus,or jesus had a wife or any other kind if utter rubbish"?!

    I hope you know that this is HIGHLY inflammatory and HIGHLY offensive.

    Now let me tell YOU the truth. Calvinists do not follow a cult. Do you EVEN know what a cult is?!

    HOW THE HECK DO YOU COME OFF TELLING ME THAT CALVINISM IS GOING TO GIVE RISE TO THE ANTICHRIST?! :mad:

    YOU DON'T SEE ME CLAIMING THE POPE IS THE BEAST, DO YOU?!


    I expect the SAME respect from you that I give to others. I don't go around calling other people's beliefs CULTS.
     
  12. Kristen

    Kristen Blah Blah

    +28
    Christian
    Locking this thread for now.
     
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