Question about UCC beliefs

[FireDragon76]

I am a Lutheran but have recently been visiting a United Church of Christ congregation. I consider myself a very liberal Lutheran, and I take a certain liberal German approach to the Book of Concord, that it's an historic document and not the end of theology. I have gone through some faith deconstruction over the COVID pandemic as I stayed indoors, became a vegan, and did alot of personal work on myself (mostly taking up mindfulness meditation again), while I watched the world around me seemingly erupt into a paroxysm of insanity.

I still identify as a Christian because I am interested in Jesus' concept of the Kingdom of God and the philosophical interpretation of cosmogenesis offered by Teilhard de Chardin, even though I consider myself a religious pluralist/inclusivist (I accept other, non-Christian religions as valid experiences of God or the Infinite). I am looking for a religious community where I can get some human contact with people of goodwill that support each other, and where people are trying to grow spiritually and in wisdom, and I figure a church like the UCC might be a place that encourages that.

The people at the UCC are friendly and the congregation is more diverse than the Lutheran church I went to before COVID, where I am still a member. I have been going off and on for several months, and it's relatively close to our apartment (only about two miles away). It's a small church and has suffered alot due to COVID and people passing away due to a mostly elderly membership. It's an open and affirming church, which is OK with me, and there are several gay or lesbian members, as well as some people that are black or hispanic. That's good, because at my Lutheran church, there are alot of elderly people, or people with very midwestern type, Lutheran pietistic values, and almost all white. The people at the UCC seem to take a more active approach to their faith and alot more comfortable with diversity.

I want to know more about the UCC's beliefs. According to their website, they accept the Augsburg Confession as an historic statement. Does that mean a Lutheran interpretation of the Lord's Supper is acceptable?

I ask because I talked to the pastor over coffee hour and said they believe Jesus is "spiritually present". But in the liturgy, the pastor says "the body of Christ; the bread of heaven". So I am a bit confused. I also told her that Lutherans don't believe that Christ is encapsulated within the bread, but we do believe that we eat and drink Christ's body and blood. The presence of Christ is a sacramental mode, and not locally confined, but the bread and wine do participate in the reality of Christ's person (perhaps something akin to the doctrine of transignification, but I prefer to think of it as "transfiguration".

I do not accept Calvin's notion that we are "lifted up into heaven", as I don't find that notion in any particular ancient patristic source, and I turn Zwingli's logic on it's head: the infinite is capable of the finite. I believe this is also consonant with several modern metaphysical systems which have developed since the time of Reformation.

 

[hedrick]

UCC is a merged church, with most from Reformed churches and some Lutheran. I assume they allow either concrpt of communion. Even in the PCUSA it is common to present the bread with “the body of Christ.” I think the mainline denominations have tended to blunt their traditional opposing views. If you asked our members I think many would likely speak of spiritual presence, as in your UCC church. I doubt that most would want to get more specific. I’d say it’s more than a memorial but less than transsubstantiation.

Heres what their web page says About Communion - United Church of Christ

The most complete mainline treatment of which I’m aware is from the Methodists: https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/gbod-assets/generic/THM-BYGC.PDF

 

[FireDragon76]

I think the mainline denominations have tended to blunt their traditional opposing views.

There is a document called Marburg Revisited written in the late 60's, a dialogue between Reformed and the World Lutheran Federation on this point. I'll have to see if I can obtain it some time.

I don't think many historians or theologians in the English-speaking world are very sympathetic to Luther's point of view, and just portray him as being obstinate. In his understanding, faith is passive and receptive, and looks outward beyond ones own limited subjectivity (which is often clouded by sin), not to heaven, but to ones immediate embodied experience of the sacraments.

If you asked our members I think many would likely speak of spiritual presence, as in your UCC church. I doubt that most would want to get more specific. I’d say it’s more than a memorial but less than transsubstantiation.

My sense is that the UCC's Lutheran legacy is muted by the fact that most of the German churches were unionists from Prussia. In practice, I suspect they were actually Pietists, who generally didn't hold as much distinction between Reformed and Lutheran doctrines or practice.

The pastor says that most of the German Evangelical churches are in the midwest. There are alot of folks in the congregation that are from New England originally, probably descendants of Puritans.

Heres what their web page says About Communion - United Church of Christ

The most complete mainline treatment of which I’m aware is from the Methodists: https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/gbod-assets/generic/THM-BYGC.PDF

Outside the ELCA, United Methodists seem to have the highest view of the sacraments, in theory, but in practice that wasn't reflected in my upbringing. It seems to be something many laity don't understand. Protestants seem to have historically portrayed themselves in contradistinction to Catholicism, and people no longer understand what a mystery is, unless they deconstruct the Aristotilian worldview the western world inherited centuries ago.

 

[RileyG]

I am not UCC, but I attended a UCC service years ago with Holy Communion present. How important is liturgy to you and the frequency of Holy Communion? When I attended it was completely non-liturgical, spontaneous, and they had Holy Communion once per month. It was very friendly and welcoming congregation. AFAIK, they are a merged church of Evangelical Reformed and the Congregationalists with a Lutheran "influence." Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am not UCC, but I attended a UCC service years ago with Holy Communion present. How important is liturgy to you and the frequency of Holy Communion? When I attended it was completely non-liturgical, spontaneous, and they had Holy Communion once per month. It was very friendly and welcoming congregation. AFAIK, they are a merged church of Evangelical Reformed and the Congregationalists with a Lutheran "influence." Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I do miss the weekly communion, but the people there are serious Christians (which isn't the stereotype many conservative Evangelicals, or the culture at large, have of the denomination), without being religious fundamentalists, and they are very open-minded, inclusive and welcoming, and loving people.

I would describe the liturgy in this particular church as "mainline Protestant", similar to what you'ld find in traditional Methodist or Reformed churches. This particular congregation sings alot of hymns that would be familiar to American Evangelicals, and the Psalms are just read, and not sung or chanted. The preaching is similar to what you'ld hear in a typical "broad" Episcopal parish.

What I don't really like is reading the prayers for the day in unison. It just doesn't feel well put together in terms of the rationale or aesthetics. We did that type of prayer as a kid in the Methodist church once. It feels like a bit of forced participation in an unhelpful way. I prefer the collects to be read by the pastor or priest- that's why we have pastors or priests, after all. I can think of better, more traditional ways to participate in a true sense (like... Holy Communion?).

I suppose the thing that made the biggest impression on me is the prayers before the Gospel reading, and after the general confession, and how people bring their personal concerns to those prayers (the pastor notes them before the prayers, then leads the prayer). There are more than just prayer requests, often there are other forms of prayer as well.

People in the UCC seem to focus more on personal appropriation of spirituality and discipleship more than people in a denomination like the ELCA, and it's less inwardly focused also (Lutherans emphasize personal assurance of God's forgiveness, almost to a fault sometimes. Whereas people in the UCC are more likely to hold to some form of inclusivism or universalism, and seem to focus on the church as a place to experience a loving community built around a social and communal wittness based on Jesus.).

 

[RileyG]

I do miss the weekly communion, but the people there are serious Christians (which isn't the stereotype many conservative Evangelicals, or the culture at large, have of the denomination), without being religious fundamentalists, and they are very open-minded, inclusive and welcoming, and loving people.

I would describe the liturgy in this particular church as "mainline Protestant", similar to what you'ld find in traditional Methodist or Reformed churches. This particular congregation sings alot of hymns that would be familiar to American Evangelicals, and the Psalms are just read, and not sung or chanted. The preaching is similar to what you'ld hear in a typical "broad" Episcopal parish.

What I don't really like is reading the prayers for the day in unison. It just doesn't feel well put together in terms of the rationale or aesthetics. We did that type of prayer as a kid in the Methodist church once. It feels like a bit of forced participation in an unhelpful way. I prefer the collects to be read by the pastor or priest- that's why we have pastors or priests, after all. I can think of better, more traditional ways to participate in a true sense (like... Holy Communion?).

I suppose the thing that made the biggest impression on me is the prayers before the Gospel reading, and after the general confession, and how people bring their personal concerns to those prayers (the pastor notes them before the prayers, then leads the prayer). There are more than just prayer requests, often there are other forms of prayer as well.

People in the UCC seem to focus more on personal appropriation of spirituality and discipleship more than people in a denomination like the ELCA, and it's less inwardly focused also (Lutherans emphasize personal assurance of God's forgiveness, almost to a fault sometimes. Whereas people in the UCC are more likely to hold to some form of inclusivism or universalism, and seem to focus on the church as a place to experience a loving community built around a social and communal wittness based on Jesus.).

Fascinating! Thank you for posting! I have very little experience with Protestant sects, so I enjoy learning as much as I can.

 

[FireDragon76]

Today we had a memorial service for the partner of a member of the church that died suddenly. I did not know him, but I knew his partner- she is leaving the area after his sudden death and moving closer to friends. Some of the members are LGBT, some don't have much money or resources. We've been praying for his partner and his little boy, and the good thing is the little boy ended up with family, instead of in the hands of social services.

It was a small service, some of his friends, who weren't particularly old (they looked to be millenials, perhaps in their 30's) came and played a guitar and sang a rock ballad and some Christian contemporary songs (his friend sang and played very well, I am suspecting she is professional, not uncommon in Orlando), we read a psalm from the Bible, the pastor read some words from a liturgical text meant to comfort people. People talked about memories they had of him and his son, about how he worked in the church's thrift store, or dreams and spiritual experiences they had, believing he was in heaven, or that they were signs from God.

I have never participated in a service like that, and some of the spirituality to me was a little foreign to my experience of "church" (I have no clue about Christian contemporary songs, for instance), but I found it moving and dignified. Especially as the death of somebody so young is not easy, so the community focused alot on helping his partner cope with the sudden loss, and the closing of a chapter in her life.

 

[RileyG]

Today we had a memorial service for the partner of a member of the church that died suddenly. I did not know him, but I knew his partner- she is leaving the area after his sudden death and moving closer to friends. Some of the members are LGBT, some don't have much money or resources. We've been praying for his partner and his little boy, and the good thing is the little boy ended up with family, instead of in the hands of social services.

It was a small service, some of his friends, who weren't particularly old (they looked to be millenials, perhaps in their 30's) came and played a guitar and sang a rock ballad and some Christian contemporary songs (his friend sang and played very well, I am suspecting she is professional, not uncommon in Orlando), we read a psalm from the Bible, the pastor read some words from a liturgical text meant to comfort people. People talked about memories they had of him and his son, about how he worked in the church's thrift store, or dreams and spiritual experiences they had, believing he was in heaven, or that they were signs from God.

I have never participated in a service like that, and some of the spirituality to me was a little foreign to my experience of "church" (I have no clue about Christian contemporary songs, for instance), but I found it moving and dignified. Especially as the death of somebody so young is not easy, so the community focused alot on helping his partner cope with the sudden loss, and the closing of a chapter in her life.

I am sorry for your loss. May God bless his family.