Question about the Rosary and Hail Mary

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You might want to ponder on what it means when we say "Christ wrapped himself in our humanity" or "Christ became flesh to redeem us". This does sound as though Christ was the active creator; but in truth that paradigm is rooted in this thought that God creates everything without human involvement. It places us as passive recipients of God's acts. I think that this is one pitfall that can come from TULIP, the thought that we are powerless, predestined either to hell or heaven. As a good parent, God wants us to stand on our own two feet and choose him as a personal act of faith. This is what Mary did. She made an active choice to become Christ's mother and to participate in the wondrous mystery of the Incarnation. Isn't the thought that God, Himself, choose to become man in all ways, even to being grown as a baby inside a woman taking on her flesh, a more glorious idea than Mary somehow being only a surrogate of a preconceived fetus that shared none of her humanity?
God's WORD became flesh, but not GOD THE FATHER who has always remained transcendent & aloof, "no man has seen the father" except eventually elect Saints in the Beatific Vision

Mary chose to willingly bear God's WORD in her womb, being God the Father's "handmaiden"

The God The Father did not incarnate, correct ? Rather, His WORD incarnated, correct ?
 
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Eastern Orthodox version of the Hail Mary:

Θεοτόκε Παρθένε, χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξί, καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, ὅτι Σωτήρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν.

Theotokos Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with You. Blessed are You among women, and blessed is the fruit of Your womb, for You have borne the Savior of our souls.

What would be the difference between the actual Orthodox "Theo-tokos" (God-bearer) and "Theo-matria" (God-mother) and why is only the former the ancient Apostolic Orthodox tradition ?
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Mary bore / carried the Word of God in her womb....
Mary was the bearer of God's WORD incarnate (not GOD HIMSELF), John 1
But that passage (John 1:1 and following) clearly explains that Jesus Christ is the "Word" being referred to. It is not referring to something we say with our mouths. And also, that passage states that the Word (i.e. Christ) is God from all eternity, therefore there is no complication involving an understanding of the Trinity involved.
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,187
Yorktown VA
✟176,292.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
What would be the difference between the actual Orthodox "Theo-tokos" (God-bearer) and "Theo-matria" (God-mother) and why is only the former the ancient Apostolic Orthodox tradition ?

Mary is also called Μήτηρ Θεοῦ, Meter Theou, Mother of God and is frequently found in iconographic shorthand as ΜP ΘY as seen below: She does have a number of titles, some are theological in nature (theotokos), other more poetic such as in the Agni Parthene

O pure and virgin Lady, O spotless Theotokos: Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!
O Virgin Queen and Mother O dewey fleece most sacred:/ Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!
Sweet_Kissing_(with_Angels).JPG
 
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But that passage (John 1:1 and following) clearly explains that Jesus Christ is the "Word" being referred to. It is not referring to something we say with our mouths. And also, that passage states that the Word (i.e. Christ) is God from all eternity, therefore there is no complication involving an understanding of the Trinity involved.
God's Word shares fully in God's own divine essence of being

But John 1:1 draws a subtle distinction between "The God" = God the Father vs. plain simple "God"

"the Word was before The God, and God was the Word"

the Word is distinct from "The God", but identifiable with "God"

The Orthodox interpretation has always been:
"The God" = God the Father by Person, distinct from the Word & Spirit
"God" = God's Essence of being, shared by the entire Godhead = Father + Word + Spirit

God's divine essence of being does reach & extend into our creation from the transcendent 3rd heaven, however not the Father's distinct Person

The original Greek was not "Theo-matria" (God's mother) but "Theo-tokos" (God's bearer)

Mary's role as Bathsheba like "Gebira" = "Queen Mother" of the Davidic king is crucial

yet at some point humans must be reticent to ascribe any human "parental origination" over The God The Father in heaven, yes?

Why haven't the Eastern Orthodox ever used the term "Theo-matria", and if they haven't, why would one use "Mater Dei" ?
 
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Change your thinking about the Trinity. It's not God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. As long as you use this formulation your mind is going to try and auto-correct "Holy Mary, mother of God" to "Holy Mary, mother of God [the Father]" which creates a lot of theological angst.

It's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The "mother of God" concept bothered me a lot as I moved out of the Baptist faith into liturgical circles until I realized the source was the casual way I had come to think of the Trinity.
so you're saying it means, "mother of God [according to Essence of being, common to the whole Godhead]" not "mother of The God [according to the Person of The Father, distinct from the rest of the Godhead]" ?
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,933.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
so you're saying it means, "mother of God [according to Essence of being, common to the whole Godhead]" not "mother of The God [according to the Person of The Father, distinct from the rest of the Godhead]" ?
It is a Christological statement. Mary gave birth to God the Word, who is Jesus Christ.

(copy/paste from Orthodox wiki)
"Theotokos was recognized by the Orthodox Church at Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. It had already been in use for some time in the devotional and liturgical life of the Church.
The theological significance of the title is to emphasize that Mary's son, Jesus, is fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus' two natures (divine and human) were united in a single Person of the Trinity.

The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning "Birth-giver to Christ." This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of "Christ's humanity" and not his divine nature."
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
God's Word shares fully in God's own divine essence of being
But John 1:1 draws a subtle distinction between "The God" = God the Father vs. plain simple "God"

"the Word was before The God, and God was the Word"

the Word is distinct from "The God", but identifiable with "God"
What in the world sort of translation are you using there? Here are about 15 of the best known and most used translations, and you can see that none of them translates it that way.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,187
Yorktown VA
✟176,292.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
What in the world sort of translation are you using there? Here are about 15 of the best known and most used translations, and you can see that none of them translates it that way.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Technically the Greek does read "kai o logos hn pros ton Theon" so "and the Logos was with the God". Reaching back into my memory from seminary, the early church would have understood Theon to be the God (the Father).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,933.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
"the Word was before The God" was the part in question.
So, if I understand this quoted part: "there was a time when The God was not" is the question.
iow, The Word existed before the Father.

That's certainly not Orthodox.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

Knee V

It's phonetic.
Sep 17, 2003
8,415
1,741
41
South Bend, IN
✟100,823.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Someone can bear a burden without that burden being in her womb, and someone can be a mother without having borne someone in her womb.

Both words - "mother" and "bearer" - can be scrutinized and found wanting. Either way, Mary bore the Logos in her womb and gave birth to Him. Whether we choose "bearer" or "mother" in English is purely semantic. "Mother" is the established word, it is a perfectly fine translation, and so we use it.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,435
11,981
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,167,730.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
mother implies active creator and origin of
Only a false understanding of "mother" implies such.
God is the only active creator and origin of every person.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Knee V
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,475
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
mother implies active creator and origin of, whereas bearer emphasizes passive vessel carrier of Divine Presence

Orthodox use both "Mother of God" and "God-bearer" interchangeably, though "Mother of God" is something I see more often on icons than used liturgically.
 
Upvote 0

Knee V

It's phonetic.
Sep 17, 2003
8,415
1,741
41
South Bend, IN
✟100,823.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't like Theotokos being translated as "God-bearer" instead of "She who gives birth to God". Theophoros means "God-bearer" and it is used with Saints like St. Ignatius.
The Godbirthgiver.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums