Question about the RCC teaching of Outside the Church...

OpenDoor

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What do Roman Catholics mean by "through no fault of his own"? Does this automatically exclude most Orthodox, Protestants, and Evangelicals? I also presume that anyone who either studied or attended a Roman Catholic Church would also be excluded.

---------------------------------------------
From CatholicAnswers.com

Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.
 

tz620q

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What do Roman Catholics mean by "through no fault of his own"? Does this automatically exclude most Orthodox, Protestants, and Evangelicals? I also presume that anyone who either studied or attended a Roman Catholic Church would also be excluded.

---------------------------------------------
From CatholicAnswers.com

Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Here are a few pertinent clips from the Catholic Catechism:

Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."


And:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

So in summary, the Orthodox and Protestants are not automatically excluded. As far as ex-Catholics, I would have to say I don't know God's will; but if they were properly catechized and there are no extenuating circumstances, then they have placed themselves outside the Ark of Salvation.
 
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Optimax

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Here are a few pertinent clips from the Catholic Catechism:

Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."


And:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

So in summary, the Orthodox and Protestants are not automatically excluded. As far as ex-Catholics, I would have to say I don't know God's will; but if they were properly catechized and there are no extenuating circumstances, then they have placed themselves outside the Ark of Salvation.


That is some of the greatest twist of scripture I have read.

A person can be saved, go to heaven and live with God for eternity without ever stepping foot in a Catholic "Church" even though there may be a dozen on the same block they live on.

:)
 
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Albion

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Besides, the Roman Church doesn't have a firm position on this subject anyway, having experimented recently with a variety of ways of saying that "yes, we are the only true church, as we said" and also retaining some credibility with people who are repelled by such narrow-minded thinking. Basically, if you ever were a Catholic and sincerely rejected it as wrong, you are lost, but if you've never heard of the name of Jesus, let along believe him or the Gospel, you're okie dokie because you're sincere..
 
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tz620q

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That is some of the greatest twist of scripture I have read.

A person can be saved, go to heaven and live with God for eternity without ever stepping foot in a Catholic "Church" even though there may be a dozen on the same block they live on.

:)

I don't think I posted any scripture. Opendoor seemed to be asking for the position of the Catholic Church relative to non-Catholics. I found quotes from the catechism that I thought would help him.

As far as the second part of your post, would you please clarify what you meant. The quotes that I posted seem to agree with what you said.
 
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OpenDoor

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Basically, if you ever were a Catholic and sincerely rejected it as wrong, you are lost, but if you've never heard of the name of Jesus, let along believe him or the Gospel, you're okie dokie because you're sincere..
So former Roman Catholics are lost, but Christians and non-Christians are maybes?
 
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Optimax

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I don't think I posted any scripture. Opendoor seemed to be asking for the position of the Catholic Church relative to non-Catholics. I found quotes from the catechism that I thought would help him.

As far as the second part of your post, would you please clarify what you meant. The quotes that I posted seem to agree with what you said.


Do you not believe that the things you posted are backed by scripture?
:)
 
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tz620q

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So former Roman Catholics are lost, but Christians and non-Christians are maybes?

Formally the Catholic Church at Vatican II gave guidelines for how the Church should perceive other non-Catholics. Also formally the Church would say that we cannot judge who is saved and not saved, that this is the prerogative of God alone.

In my opinion, I think many Protestants are all about the "Are you saved?" mentality. As though this is a one time event and not a life long process. Many former Roman Catholics return to the church (revert) and so "lost" would be a temporary status and not a final destination. What can I say about a "maybe"; except we leave it in God's hands.
 
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Albion

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So former Roman Catholics are lost, but Christians and non-Christians are maybes?

Bear in mind how I began my comments. The Roman Church doesn't really have a firm position on this matter. The documentary evidence that you've been presented with by Catholics on this thread, however, suggests that anyone who is baptised but unpersuaded by the RCC's claim to being Christ's own church is a de facto part of the RCC, like it or not. But those who have been a member, i.e. baptised in that denomination, and since have rejected the claims of the Roman Church are not. They are deemed to have known the truth and abandoned it. They are accountable, therefore.

As for real Pagans, the current thinking is that they are saved so long as they are good and sincere pagans. They can't be considered backdoor associates of the RCC because they never were baptised, but they are considered to be blameless in their non-belief, because of circumstances, and are somehow covered by the shed blood of Christ even if they don't know it.
 
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tz620q

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Do you not believe that the things you posted are backed by scripture?
:)

Optimax,
I think this is where we might have to say that we agree to disagree. I won't be dragged into the type of threads that I have seen here where the Catholic is asked to provide all the proof and the Protestant merely has to scoff at it to disprove it. These are fruitless and often non-loving activities that wound the Body of Christ further.

Vatican II 's language was meant to be ecumenical in that the original anathemas of the Council of Trent were placed on people that had been Catholic and formally rejected the Church. 500 years later, the Catholic Church realized that there were large numbers of Christians that were not Catholic and had never been. They tried to convey a new perspective that made allowance for this fact.
 
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Optimax

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Optimax,
I think this is where we might have to say that we agree to disagree. I won't be dragged into the type of threads that I have seen here where the Catholic is asked to provide all the proof and the Protestant merely has to scoff at it to disprove it. These are fruitless and often non-loving activities that wound the Body of Christ further.

Vatican II 's language was meant to be ecumenical in that the original anathemas of the Council of Trent were placed on people that had been Catholic and formally rejected the Church. 500 years later, the Catholic Church realized that there were large numbers of Christians that were not Catholic and had never been. They tried to convey a new perspective that made allowance for this fact.


If what you posted is not based on scripture then it is immaterial.

Because Vatican II said some things does not make it worthwhile to know much less true.

What Scripture has to say is more than worthwhile to know and is truth.

Therefore my statement(s):

That is some of the greatest twist of scripture I have read.

A person can be saved, go to heaven and live with God for eternity without ever stepping foot in a Catholic "Church" even though there may be a dozen on the same block they live on.

:)
 
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tz620q

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But those who have been a member, i.e. baptised in that denomination, and since have rejected the claims of the Roman Church are not. They are deemed to have known the truth and abandoned it. They are accountable, therefore.

That would depend on whether they actually had known the truth and rejected it or not. Being presented with material and actually thinking about it and forming an internal position on it are two different things.


As for real Pagans, the current thinking is that they are saved so long as they are good and sincere pagans. They can't be considered backdoor associates of the RCC because they never were baptised, but they are considered to be blameless in their non-belief, because of circumstances, and are somehow covered by the shed blood of Christ even if they don't know it.

Albion,
Do you really see this type of language in what I posted?
 
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tz620q

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If what you posted is not based on scripture then it is immaterial.

Because Vatican II said some things does not make it worthwhile to know much less true.

What Scripture has to say is more than worthwhile to know and is truth.

Therefore my statement(s):



:)


Exactly!!! Why do so many non-Catholics get their shorts bunched up about what is said in Vatican II documents to the Catholic Church and its members. It seems like the Protestant renewal should be based on scripture and not on finding more things to protest within the Catholic Church.
 
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E

Eric Hibbert

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What do Roman Catholics mean by "through no fault of his own"? Does this automatically exclude most Orthodox, Protestants, and Evangelicals? I also presume that anyone who either studied or attended a Roman Catholic Church would also be excluded.

---------------------------------------------
From CatholicAnswers.com

Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

I find their attitude a little offensive, to be honest.

They will claim that I left the Catholic Church because I really didn't understand the teachings of the Catholic Church.

But that simply isn't true. I did understand it. It was because I did understand them they they came up so short when I examined them in light of scripture.

I didn't leave because I didn't understand. I left because Christ chose me, called me, and saved me, and I did not see any way I could follow Christ and still submit to the Catholic Church and its Unbiblical doctrines.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit living in me would have allowed me to stay.

I left Catholicism with a sound mind, of my own volition, with full understandings of its doctrines, with a clear-headed rejection of its self-proclaimed authority, not out of ignorance as Catholics will often claim. So I don't see how they can excuse me and say I rejected Catholicism "through no fault of my own". The responsibility and culpability for leaving and rejecting Catholicism's doctrines and self-proclaimed authority rests solely on me.

So, where does that leave me? Honestly? I don't care. Catholics and the Catholic Church are welcome to their opinion, but I serve Christ, not the Catholic Church, and it's His opinion I'm concerned with.
 
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Optimax

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Exactly!!! Why do so many non-Catholics get their shorts bunched up about what is said in Vatican II documents to the Catholic Church and its members. It seems like the Protestant renewal should be based on scripture and not on finding more things to protest within the Catholic Church.

Because you guys try to make being saved only possible through the Catholic Church.

That just is not true and deceives many.
 
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Albion

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That would depend on whether they actually had known the truth and rejected it or not. Being presented with material and actually thinking about it and forming an internal position on it are two different things.

Yes, but it's almost a distinction without a difference. Who knowingly rejects the truth? Yet the Roman Church continues to talk as you do--as though some converts from Catholicism might have rejected what they knew and believed to be the truth while others must have just been so marginal as to not realize what the church was teaching. I personally have never met a person who was formerly a Roman Catholic but left it for another Christian church although they still considered it to be the one and only true church.
 
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Albion

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Exactly!!! Why do so many non-Catholics get their shorts bunched up about what is said in Vatican II documents to the Catholic Church and its members. It seems like the Protestant renewal should be based on scripture and not on finding more things to protest within the Catholic Church.

Does that mean that on a multi-denominational discussion board like this one, nobody is supposed to ask what your church's policy is on any issue?

That's exactly what this thread amounts to, and yet, in your estimation, "non-Catholics" have their "shorts bunched up" if they dare to ask. At the same time, there is no church in all of Christendom whose members do more posting of unsolicited statements here about what their church believes--just because "we thought you'd like to know."
 
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tz620q

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Because you guys try to make being saved only possible through the Catholic Church.

That just is not true and deceives many.

You know 9 out of 10 posts on GT where the phrase "Saved only through the Catholic Church" is used come from non-Catholics protesting the Catholic Church. The parts of the catechism that I posted were intentionally phrased to show a broader understanding of what the "Church" constituted. So you can continue with 500 year old polemics or you can take Vatican II for what it was intended to do and find a more ecumenical way of talking to each other.
 
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tz620q

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Does that mean that on a multi-denominational discussion board like this one, nobody is supposed to ask what your church's policy is on any issue?

Of course not, but why feel honor bound to then debate the issue ad nauseum. I have been involved with at least two very long debates on this topic on this board. Why not just search for one of those old threads and read up on it. The question was asked and I tried to answer it. I then find myself trolled into defending the answer. It baffles my mind that lifelong Protestants take offense to the more moderate stance of Lumen Gentium towards non-Catholics.

That's exactly what this thread amounts to, and yet, in your estimation, "non-Catholics" have their "shorts bunched up" if they dare to ask. At the same time, there is no church in all of Christendom whose members do more posting of unsolicited statements here about what their church believes--just because "we thought you'd like to know."

So posting our church's beliefs here is offensive to you? That is what this thread has shown me. I merely tried to post an answer to Opendoor. Did that posting offend you? You act like you already knew about everything that I posted, so what new offense did I commit?
 
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