Question about the 1000 year reign - rapture

[Davy]

....
Make no mistake, there will be pain, suffering, death, devastation ... it's the Great Tribulation, what do think, people will just be speaking words out of their mouths?
Satan is persecuting the Church now, millions of refugees are fleeing for their lives, heads are being chopped off and we are not even in the GT yet. Satan's mission is to kill and destroy Christians and Jews. That's only part of it. God's judgment is worse.
"But transgressors and sinners will be crushed together,
And those who forsake the LORD will come to an end." Is. 1:28

"Behold the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
Is. 13:9

"For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
and its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch,
It shall not be quenched night or day; ..." Is. 34:8-10"

Neither their silver not their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the LORD"S wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth." Zeph. 1:18

God will destroy all inhabitants (except for His remnant Israel, who will be protected during this time). The Church will be gone and the remaining unbelievers will die.

Sorry, but you're starting to sound like one of Hal Lindsay's books, or Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series taught in a lot of pre-tribulational Churches today. Like I said before, I do not adhere to pretribulationalism. Christ's return and gathering of His Church is after the tribulation. So His Church will... be here on earth throughout the great tribulation time.

In Matt.24:6, Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars, and that's where the doctrines of pre-trib usually stops, not reading the last phrase He said, "but the end is not yet." What did our Lord Jesus mean with that, "but the end is not yet"?

It's simple. As long as wars and rumors of wars are going on, the end is not yet. It means the time of the end (i.e., the GT) will be a time when all wars have stopped, which of course means a time of peace, world peace, because never... in man's history have all wars stopped on this earth! Will there still be persecutions during that future time of world peace? Yes, I never said there would not be. But they won't be upon the wicked and deceived who fall for the "strong delusion" of 2 Thess.2. That's not supposed to be us, Christ's Church, who fall for that, thus many of us will be persecuted, some of us put to death like the 5th Seal shows.

The times we are seeing right now, though it seems like it's what Revelation is revealing, today is still... not the time of "great tribulation", because the main event and purpose for the great tribulation is to 'deceive' the world into worshiping the coming pseudo-Christ in place of God. That particular false Messiah has not showed up yet. And when he does, it means the building of another Jewish temple in Jerusalem, the orthodox Jews establishing their old covenant worship again, and the pseudo-Christ being made king of the world, over all nations and peoples.

In that time, how will that pseudo-Christ deceive the world by going around murdering everyone? That wouldn't deceive anyone, and especially not Christian brethren weak in the Faith. It will be those of us who refuse to bow to him as God that he will come after, and it might even be some of our own loved ones who are deceived that will turn us in:

Mark 13:12-13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Do you know your Old Testament???

Let's have a look at the NT.
The first four Seals represents actions that will destroy 1/3 of the planet, grass, trees, cities and people - LITERALLY. Within the Seals are the actions of the Trumpets and Bowls so the events are accumulative and overlap.

Yes, I am familiar with The Old Testament Bible.

1st Trumpet - fire, hail and blood are released. 1/3 of all the trees and grass on earth are burned -- including cities and people.
2nd Trumpet - something like a huge mountain on fire gets thrown into the seas (asteroid or super-volcanic eruption) results in death to 1/3 of the life in the sea and destruction to 1/3 of the vessels on the planet. That's some considerable wave action in that part of the world. Let's speculation. 1/3 of the planet on fire most likely the center of all the destruction is in Jerusalem. So start there, draw a straight line 4,000 miles and then a circle around Jerusalem with using that radius. That is 1/3 of the planet.
3rd Trumpet - Wormwood falls to earth and poisons the water and again, people drink it and die. This could be a nuclear fallout or an asteroid rupturing the underground aquifers. ???
4th Trumpet - Darkness from the planet being on fire blocks out sunlight and moonlight in the portion of the world.
5th Trumpet - An angel with the keys to the bottomless pit, opens it up. Smoke arises like from a great furnace (volcano) and sun was darkened by the smoke. There we see a confirmation of the smoke causing the sun to go dark. Within this smoke, the demon locusts come from the pit of Hades to TORTURE MANKIND (those who have the mark of the Beast). Did you think that they were coming to verbally assault mankind with words? LOL
6th Trumpet - releases four angels who are bound at the Euphrates River to kill 1/3 of mankind. I believe these are the Four Horsemen in the Seals. These horsemen are followed by 200 million horsemen that very possibly possess 200 million men on earth who war and create fire - not sure. ??
7th Trumpet - Rapture/Resurrection
a. mystery of God is revealed
b. Christ appears
c. Kingdoms of the world become the Lord's.
d. The dead are resurrected and judged
e. We receive rewards according to our deeds.
f. The Temple of God is opened.
g. The Bowls of Wrath are released.

Those are symbols for something else (except for Christ's coming). In God's Word, trees are given as a symbol for men (Mark 8:24). Same thing with waters (Rev.17:15). And grass is given as a symbol for man (Ps.103:15). So 1/3 of the trees can be symbolic of a 1/3 of men. And the waters being made bitter, same thing, people being deceived, causing spiritual death. And the sun blocking out the moon signifies eclipses. We are closer to the 5th & 6th trumpets today than any other, and yet not all the grass on earth is burned up, the earth hasn't been hit by an asteroid, etc.

....
Sorry folks, there is no symbolism here, ya'll need to take these things literally. Take God's word for it, he will put an end to all the inhabitants who are not HIS!

I'm sorry too, because not everything given in God's Word is meant literally. You asked if I was familiar with The Old Testament scripture, but it seems you are not, because back in the Old Testament is where most of those Revelation symbols were first given.

These losers have been plagued by these witnesses, of course they are glad that they are gone. They brought famine and threatened anyone who got in their way, who btw are not symbolic for the Church or Churches. The Church holds 2.42 billion Christians who will not lay dead on the street in Jerusalem while the world celebrates!

You're missing the point brother. It's the fact that the whole world is together, against God's two witnesses, because the two witnesses disrupt their fake world peace. It won't just be a time with a coached Miss America being asked what she most wants for people and answers, "world peace". It will be a time of world peace, the "Peace and safety" which Apostle Paul said they will be saying at the end. That's why the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" with Jesus' return will take them by surprise:

1 Thess 5:3
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

The Great Tribulation comes after the peace time, sudden destruction comes upon them like a woman in labor.

No, not really. The time of great tribulation is... their time when they will be saying, "Peace and safety", like Paul showed in the above verse I quoted from 1 Thess.5. Paul was pulling from the OT prophets in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. The "day of the Lord" is the final day of this world, the day of destruction per the OT prophets, the day of God's vengeance upon the earth, the day of Christ's second coming and gathering of His saints on the "last trump", the day of the resurrection.

I'm aware that the pre-trib doctrine today is preaching that the "day of the Lord" event begins before the GT, which is not true. The "day of the Lord" event involves the burning of man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10-11. So when it comes, this present world time will be over. Christ's return is on that "day of the Lord" timing, as in Rev.16:15 He said He comes "as a thief", warning His Church still on earth on the 6th Vial.

You apparently do not believe the above scriptures.

Oh, I believe God's Word as written alright, including the symbolic meanings He has given in His Word. By The Holy Spirit and... study using discipline in His Word, it's easier to know when He is speaking allegory and parable and when He is not. Those like Hal Lindsay are on an agenda from men, so I wouldn't recommend reading his nor Tim LaHaye's material, for those works will only confuse what the true Word of God teaches. It saddens me to hear about pre-trib Churches using their materials to teach in Sunday school class instead of God's Holy Writ. Like God said in Isaiah, "Cease ye from man,...", meaning quit following what men say, ask God Himself (Isa.2:22).

God knows who they are and where the twelve tribes are. They were not lost, they came back. Or do you think God lost 1w tribes whom He literally has plans for and gave specific orders in Revelation to seal them?

The ten tribes are not lost to God, that's true (Amos 9:9; Ezek.37, etc.). But they are still lost to the Jews, and to the world.

Nor did the ten tribes return to the holy land. Still not yet. If they had, then there would be no OT Scripture about their gathering at the end of this world. Instead, there's a lot of OT Scripture for the end about their gathering back to the holy lands of promise. The only ones returning to the holy lands in the past few centuries have been Jews of the house of Judah, not the ten tribes.

There's still prophecy for the last days in the Book of Genesis. Did you know that? In Gen.49, Jacob is giving prophecies for each of his twelve sons meant for the end of this world. That's enough Biblical proof to show all twelve tribes of Israel still exist all the way up to Christ's second coming. And the ten tribes actually made up the majority of Israelites, so if they have increased while scattered like Judah has, then their number today is at least 2/3rds more than Jews. Where are they? Even the majority of Judah is still scattered today and has not returned to the holy land.

The Jewish historian Josephus said the ten tribes in his day (100 A.D.) were still scattered beyond Euphrates, and were a great number, too many to be counted. II Esdras suggests the ten tribes migrated westward through the narrow gorges of the upper Euphrates. I believe the Gen.35 & 48 prophecies of "a multitude of nations" was fulfilled by the ten tribes, and those nations are the western Christian nations of history.

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi RT,

Sorry bro, you have jumped a few too many scriptures and come up with the wrong answer.

1. Firstly, yes the wife/bride has made herself ready - righteous acts of the saints. That is what the OT people had to do - righteous acts. (We the Body of Christ are righteous in Christ and then our good works come out of that. Quite different.)
Also Matthew 22: 12 shows us that this wedding feast will take place ON earth.

Abraham and David were justified BY FAITH just as we are. I don't do wrong, the Holy Spirit leads unto all truth.

As I stated, the Wedding Feast is at ARMAGEDDON, dd you nor read? I do not see how you could have read POST #92 and then again make the pint that the Marriage Feast is ON EARTH, I know that, and the MARRIAGE is in Heaven, I know that also.

2. The army that comes with Jesus. Jesus always said that they were His angelic army who were clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Angels are also described as having fine linen, meaning they are holy. (Rev. 16: 6)

Rev. 19:8 And to her (Church) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Now once again tell me why the Church/Bride in verse 8 is not seen as the ARMIES IN WHITE LINEN in verse 14 who return with Jesus to Armageddon?

To me it is quite strange that men would be tricked into thinking they are a woman, a bride. Really, now you come on bro. (lol) Wouldn`t you rather believe God`s word that you are the new man!!!

For starters, there will be no MALE or FEMALES in heaven, so Jesus is using this example to show how we will forever be chaste and faithful thus we are HS BRIDE.

The Marriage Supper is Armageddon.

 

[Revealing Times]

1st Seal:
subject - deception
Rev.6:1-2 - white horse rider mimic of Christ's coming.
Parallel - Matt.24:4-5, don't let any man deceive you; false ones saying they are Christ.

The Anti-Christ is RELEASED as a CONQUEROR, that is what the White Horse stands for. And this has absolutely nothing to do with Matt. 24:4-5, that was the 70 AD Event. (Matt. 24:1-6 = AD Event.) He is trying to be the "Savior of the World" just not the Jewish Messiah per se.

2nd Seal:
subject - war
Rev.6:3 - red war horse
Parallel - Matt.24:6-7 - wars and rumors of wars; nation against nation

Truth in essence, but it should be noted that the passage says PEACE is taken away from MANKIND, which infers that there was a PEACE TREATIES between many nations that was broken/reneged on. S it does lead to war but God wants us to know the PEACE was taken from the earth.

But again, you are trying to interject Matt. 24 here where it doesn't fit. Verse 6 is 70 AD and before and verse 7-14 is the Church Age. It has nothing to do with the Tribulation period. Verse 9 is THE DISCIPLES being killed, this is pretty simple stuff to be honest.

3rd Seal:
subject - commerce, famine, protection of The Gospel
Rev.6:5-6 - black horse with balances; measure of wheat for a penny, etc., symbolic of working all day's wage for a loaf of bread, thus economic famine, inflation, etc.; wine and Oil not to be touched, represents The Gospel being preserved among Christ's servants.
Parallel - Matt.24:13-14 mainly, The Gospel still being preached in all the world.

Hurt not the Wine and the Oil means to SEAL Israel or protect the in Petra for 1260 days, it doesn't mean protecting the Gospel. Nothing can ever harm the Gospel. There is famine and commerce is hurt by wars but AGAIN thus has nothing to do with Matt. 23:13-14, the Gospel is preached unto all the world by the Gentile Church who are then RAPTURED....SKIP....Verse 15 is then 3.5 years into the Tribulation period.

4th Seal:
subject - the time of "great tribulation", the final world beast kingdom, false religion; the pseudo-Christ.
Rev.6:7-8 - pale horse, Death (devil) riding on it; power over the 4th part of the earth to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, with beasts. (all symbols because recall Rev.9 about the locusts not allowed to hurt any green thing, and cannot kill those not sealed.)
Parallel - Matt.24:15-28 - the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem and the "abomination of desolation" event for the end. The great deception to the false Messiah by his doing great signs and wonders. (Connection to the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, and 2 Thess.2 about the false one in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God.) The beast kingdom of Rev.13 established.

The GREAT TROUBLES start with the very FIRST SEAL. All if Gods Judgemts are released via THE SEALS, the 7 Trumpets come from the 7th Seal and the 7 Vials comes from the 7th Trumpet. So every Judgment is RELEASED by Jesus via the 7 Seals. THIS IS TRUTH....Matt. 24 finally fits here.

5th Seal:
subject - delivering up of some of the saints to give a Testimony for Christ.
Rev.6:9-11 - souls of those slain for The Word of God under the altar in Heaven asking God "How long?"
Parallel - Mark 13:9-13 - saints delivered up to give a witness by The Holy Spirit.

These are those BEHEADED during the Tribulation, not the Church Age. They are those Judged at the Rev. 20:4 Judgment seat. These are not Saints from the Church Age, we will be in Heaven Marrying the Lamb at this time.

6th Seal:
subject - the untimely figs; Jesus' coming and His wrath
Rev.6:12-13 - Part A - the untimely figs, smoke and mirrors by the Antichrist and his host, the casting down of Satan and his angels out of heaven to the earth per Rev.12:7-9, as untimely figs that grow early in the winter and fall off in the spring (represents pseudo-Christ deception that will happen on earth first prior to Christ's 2nd coming.)
Parallel - Matt.24:23-28 - the pseudo-Christ working of great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. The gathering as a carcase parallel with the end of Luke 17, pointing to deception to the pseudo-Christ.

The untimely figs will be Satan and his Demons cast to earth, agreed. They Anti-Christ and False Prophet are trying to DECEIVE the Jews in Petra into coming out so they can kill them, Jesus warns them not to go looking for him, that he will come in the EASTERN SKIES, and he will be where the CARCASS is at (ARMAGEDDON). But hes not trying to deceive the world that hes Jesus, the rest of the world HATES Jesus and God, that is why they spent their whole lives REJECTING HIM, you hear these people like I do, they would rather go to hell then serve this UNJUST/BARBARIC God !!

He doesn't pretend to be the Jewish Messiah, now he might try to trick the Jews who fled to Petra into thinking he is the Jewish Messiah in order to get them to come out of their protected zone, so he can kill them.

 

[BABerean2]

These are those BEHEADED during the Tribulation, not the Church Age. They are those Judged at the Rev. 20:4 Judgment seat. These are not Saints from the Church Age, we will be in Heaven Marrying the Lamb at this time.

Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, why would anyone think the New Covenant Church comes to an end before the Second Coming of Christ?


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.

 

[Ronald]

I think you're trying to understand me a bit too literally. The Seals are one thing, our being sealed by The Holy Spirit is another. It's the information 'in the Seals' that we are sealed with. And what is that? It's an understanding of the "times and the seasons" leading up to Christ's second coming on the "day of the Lord" like Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5. Jesus opening the Seals to us is so we might be prepared, because like God said a long time ago, He tells us of things before He does them (Isa.42:9).

The information in the scroll is sealed. The seals are just seals. Our understanding the times and the seasons is just discernment/hermeneutics.

1st Seal:
subject - deception
Rev.6:1-2 - white horse rider mimic of Christ's coming.
Parallel - Matt.24:4-5, don't let any man deceive you; false ones saying they are Christ.

2nd Seal:
subject - war
Rev.6:3 - red war horse
Parallel - Matt.24:6-7 - wars and rumors of wars; nation against nation

3rd Seal:
subject - commerce, famine, protection of The Gospel
Rev.6:5-6 - black horse with balances; measure of wheat for a penny, etc., symbolic of working all day's wage for a loaf of bread, thus economic famine, inflation, etc.; wine and Oil not to be touched, represents The Gospel being preserved among Christ's servants.
Parallel - Matt.24:13-14 mainly, The Gospel still being preached in all the world.

4th Seal:
subject - the time of "great tribulation", the final world beast kingdom, false religion; the pseudo-Christ.
Rev.6:7-8 - pale horse, Death (devil) riding on it; power over the 4th part of the earth to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, with beasts. (all symbols because recall Rev.9 about the locusts not allowed to hurt any green thing, and cannot kill those not sealed.)
Parallel - Matt.24:15-28 - the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem and the "abomination of desolation" event for the end. The great deception to the false Messiah by his doing great signs and wonders. (Connection to the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, and 2 Thess.2 about the false one in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God.) The beast kingdom of Rev.13 established.

5th Seal:
subject - delivering up of some of the saints to give a Testimony for Christ.
Rev.6:9-11 - souls of those slain for The Word of God under the altar in Heaven asking God "How long?"
Parallel - Mark 13:9-13 - saints delivered up to give a witness by The Holy Spirit.

6th Seal:
subject - the untimely figs; Jesus' coming and His wrath
Rev.6:12-13 - Part A - the untimely figs, smoke and mirrors by the Antichrist and his host, the casting down of Satan and his angels out of heaven to the earth per Rev.12:7-9, as untimely figs that grow early in the winter and fall off in the spring (represents pseudo-Christ deception that will happen on earth first prior to Christ's 2nd coming.)
Parallel - Matt.24:23-28 - the pseudo-Christ working of great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. The gathering as a carcase parallel with the end of Luke 17, pointing to deception to the pseudo-Christ.
Rev.6:14-17 - Part B - the day of Christ's second coming, and pouring out of His wrath on earth, on the "day of the Lord".
Parallel - Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 - both Scriptures are required because in Matthew 24 it's the 'asleep' saints that are gathered, and in the Mark 13 version it's the saints on earth being gathered. Together they parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 with Christ's coming and gathering of the Church.

Very interesting, Jesus summed up the events in the Olivet Discourse leading up to the end times that parallels what is in the scroll before He even received it! There is also a parallel of the events of the Trumpets and the Bowls within the Scroll as well, which is why I see it as a multidimensional sphere of events overlapping and showing us different vantage points.

 

[Ronald]

Sorry, but you're starting to sound like one of Hal Lindsay's books, or Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series taught in a lot of pre-tribulational Churches today. Like I said before, I do not adhere to pretribulationalism. Christ's return and gathering of His Church is after the tribulation. So His Church will... be here on earth throughout the great tribulation time.

I've read The Late Great Planet Earth and almost all the books in the Left Behind series. BUT I AM NOT A PRE-TRIBBER. If you have ever read any of my numerous posts, (even in this thread), I clearly state that the Rapture occurs at the 7th Trumpet. Therefore, that destroys any pre-trib view and that is my argument with Pre-Tribbers. That is the single event that they must distort, "the last trump". For them, it can't be #7, it has to be unrelated to the seven trumpets. So by putting me in this mix, you already misunderstand my view!

In Matt.24:6, Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars, and that's where the doctrines of pre-trib usually stops, not reading the last phrase He said, "but the end is not yet." What did our Lord Jesus mean with that, "but the end is not yet"?

Wars and rumors of wars lead up to the GT, it is the beginning of sorrows. As we've seen in the Middle East, the revolts in Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc., like dominos beginning in 2011. We've seen the false prophets like, Mohammed being the big one and I do believe Satan is behind that Beast.
The Islamic nations and others been experiencing genocide caused by Islam since the 7th century. Within the last 15 years we have seen genocide in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia and it continues. If you asked any Christian in those countries, they would believe they are in the Great Tribulation. How much greater can it be than getting raped, murdered, chased out of your home and getting your head chopped off? These martyrs in heaven and asking, how much longer oh Lord ... and He tells them a while longer.

It's simple. As long as wars and rumors of wars are going on, the end is not yet. It means the time of the end (i.e., the GT) will be a time when all wars have stopped, which of course means a time of peace, world peace, because never... in man's history have all wars stopped on this earth! Will there still be persecutions during that future time of world peace? Yes, I never said there would not be. But they won't be upon the wicked and deceived who fall for the "strong delusion" of 2 Thess.2. That's not supposed to be us, Christ's Church, who fall for that, thus many of us will be persecuted, some of us put to death like the 5th Seal shows.

I think a big part of the GT will be wars. "Every nation comes against Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a stumbling block for many nations. Those who chose to heave it away will be crushed. Those who war against it will be destroyed. So we have seen the time when "All nations go against Jerusalem". Now if there is a Peace Treaty among many nations: a group of Muslim nations with Israel that calls for peace, well that is the scenario that the Pre-Tribbers have in Left Behind, then the Anti-Christ breaks his agreement in the middle and the GT begins. It is very plausible to think that this Iranian Nuclear Deal signed in July 2015 may be a treaty that will be broken. Iran leaders have wanted Israel to be annihilated, other Islamic countries would get in line with that. And we do know that Iran is the #1 state funder of terrorism in the world AND they were instrumental in all the revolts in those Islamic nations mentioned in 2011. Others believe that the Anti-Christ will be from Syria.

The times we are seeing right now, though it seems like it's what Revelation is revealing, today is still... not the time of "great tribulation", because the main event and purpose for the great tribulation is to 'deceive' the world into worshiping the coming pseudo-Christ in place of God. That particular false Messiah has not showed up yet. And when he does, it means the building of another Jewish temple in Jerusalem, the orthodox Jews establishing their old covenant worship again, and the pseudo-Christ being made king of the world, over all nations and peoples.

I am not an adherent to a new Temple, the 7the week of Daniel, etc. Why would God allow such a Temple, when He intends to lift the veil for His remnant Israel? The Temple became obsolete since Pentecost. We are the Temple and so sacrifices returning would be an abomination. Maybe that is why He causes a desolation? And when Jesus returns (and every eye will see Him), they will slap their heads and say, Oy veh, we really screwed up.

In that time, how will that pseudo-Christ deceive the world by going around murdering everyone? That wouldn't deceive anyone, and especially not Christian brethren weak in the Faith. It will be those of us who refuse to bow to him as God that he will come after, and it might even be some of our own loved ones who are deceived that will turn us in:

Mark 13:12-13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

God sends out a strong delusion so that unbelievers believe his lies.
"And in the latter time of the their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
His power shall be might but not by his own power.
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people."
Dan. 8:23, 24

Destroy means destroy, to kill, put an end to - don't symbolize that!


"He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and a half a time." Daniel 7:25

He will persecute Christians and Jews. Speaking pompous words against Jesus doesn't exactly sound like He's pretending to be Jesus!

He shall speak blasphemes against Jesus. (Daniel 11:36

The reason the world follows the Anti-Christ is: "And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast." Rev. 13:3
They fear him: "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him? vs 4.
"It was granted him to make war with the saints and to overcome them." vs. 7
"He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." vs.13 "And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs ..."vs. 14

They believe because of the signs and they fear him because of his powers. While he is doing this, the two witnesses are standing and preaching the gospel of Jesus ... which the Anti-Christ rebels against (as Satan has always done, the Father of lies) This is why he kills the Witnessess,

Those are symbols for something else (except for Christ's coming). In God's Word, trees are given as a symbol for men (Mark 8:24). Same thing with waters (Rev.17:15). And grass is given as a symbol for man (Ps.103:15). So 1/3 of the trees can be symbolic of a 1/3 of men. And the waters being made bitter, same thing, people being deceived, causing spiritual death. And the sun blocking out the moon signifies eclipses. We are closer to the 5th & 6th trumpets today than any other, and yet not all the grass on earth is burned up, the earth hasn't been hit by an asteroid, etc.

No, no, no. Do symbolize what God is trying to tell you. His judgment was with water the first time and soon it will be with FIRE. The planet will burn, the grass, trees, people, cities, billions will die. You can hold up you two fingers and say peace all you want, Judgment Day is going to be severe!
"Closer to the 5th and 6th trumpets ...?"
The first trumpet hasn't even blown yet, just wait, there will be no mistaking the GT.

I'm sorry too, because not everything given in God's Word is meant literally. You asked if I was familiar with The Old Testament scripture, but it seems you are not, because back in the Old Testament is where most of those Revelation symbols were first given.

I didn't say everything, don't put words in my script! I said those particular passages of the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls specifically were meant to be taken literally.

You're missing the point brother. It's the fact that the whole world is together, against God's two witnesses, because the two witnesses disrupt their fake world peace. It won't just be a time with a coached Miss America being asked what she most wants for people and answers, "world peace". It will be a time of world peace, the "Peace and safety" which Apostle Paul said they will be saying at the end. That's why the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" with Jesus' return will take them by surprise:

1 Thess 5:3
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Miss America doesn't have a clue. I am familiar with the scripture, which is what I discussed earlier, a peace treaty of some sort. We all were thinking of one involving Israel and the Palestinians, but that seems like it's never gonna happen. So maybe this Iranian Deal. ???
If it is, they will break it after 3 1/2 years which would be around December this year since they made the agreement in July 2015. Again, this regime has been persecuting Christians and wants Israel annihilated -- it's not hard to imagine an Islamic leader, the Anti-Christ -- they always have been.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

Revelation 21:9 - And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

the Bride is the city in this verse - but only because it is where the Bridegroom will live with His eternal family

2 Corinthians 11:2 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Isaiah 62:5 - For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Hi SS,

That is quite a mix of scriptures there, bro, and they are not connected.

1. Rev. 21: 2 is where we start - ` the holy city,....prepared AS a bride adorned...` That shows us that the city is LIKE a bride,, BUT it is NOT a bride. The word `bride` is used as a symbol of revealing the righteousness of the OT saints who are in the city.

The Lord`s rule (throne) is there, however His seat of power and authority is much higher, above all.

2. 2 Cor. 11: 2. Paul is speaking to his disciples saying that he wants to present them as pure to the Lord. Paul will not present us, for it is the Lord Himself who will present us.

`Now unto Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to PRESENT you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.` (Jude 24)

3. Isaiah 62: 5 is clearly referring to Israel. Also see the word AS, meaning it is like.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi SS, & RT,

I`m still waiting for those scriptures that say -

The Body of Christ, (or church or believers) are the bride/wife of Christ.

What we actually have in scripture is the word `bride` used as a symbol of the city, in eternity, and for the relationship of God with Israel.

Marilyn.

 

[seventysevens]

Hi SS, & RT,

I`m still waiting for those scriptures that say -

The Body of Christ, (or church or believers) are the bride/wife of Christ.

What we actually have in scripture is the word `bride` used as a symbol of the city, in eternity, and for the relationship of God with Israel.

Marilyn.

Marilyn sometimes you have to accept and acknowledge the scripture for what it refers to even when your choice of words are not chosen as you wish -
The Holy trinity is not used in scripture but yet the teaching and understanding is clearly evident
When you take in to account that Almighty God teaches us all about marriage and then He calls Himself the Bridegroom that will be taken from them but they will not mourn while the Bridegroom is with them - it be quite obvious just who the Bride Is , unless you think that Jesus was planning on marrying a human woman before he would be crucified

When Jesus said that he was sitting with His Bride - the born again believers

Your question is like people that do not accept that Jesus said he is God because they can not find a scripture that Jesus mouths the words " I am God " even though the Jews knew that is exactly what he was saying which is why they wanted to kill him
The term or phrase "Bride of Christ" has been around for more than 1500 years

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn sometimes you have to accept and acknowledge the scripture for what it refers to even when your choice of words are not chosen as you wish -
The Holy trinity is not used in scripture but yet the teaching and understanding is clearly evident
When you take in to account that Almighty God teaches us all about marriage and then He calls Himself the Bridegroom that will be taken from them but they will not mourn while the Bridegroom is with them - it be quite obvious just who the Bride Is , unless you think that Jesus was planning on marrying a human woman before he would be crucified

When Jesus said that he was sitting with His Bride - the born again believers

Your question is like people that do not accept that Jesus said he is God because they can not find a scripture that Jesus mouths the words " I am God " even though the Jews knew that is exactly what he was saying which is why they wanted to kill him
The term or phrase "Bride of Christ" has been around for more than 1500 years

Hi SS,

I hear you, however regarding the Trinity that is a doctrine which has clear foundations and numerous scriptures. Regarding the Bride of Christ it is not a doctrine based on scripture. It is based on loosely put together passages that are of different groups and different times.

Lots of errors have been around since Paul`s time so time does not a doctrine make.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

When Jesus said that he was sitting with His Bride - the born again believers

Hi SS,

Thought with your comment there I needed to say a few things.

When Jesus was manifested on earth He came to His own, Israel. That is who He is speaking to. He is symbolically their bridegroom and they the wife/bride.

In the book of Hosea we see that he married a woman, then she prostituted, then God told him to marry her again. This is an illustration of God`s relationship with Israel. He calls Himself their master, (symbolically - husband). Then when they went after other god`s God `divorces` them. Later He will connect with them again via Christ. (symbolically - marry wife).

The Body of Christ was not known when the Lord was speaking to Israel concerning their future - bridegroom and wedding. Even the disciples were still looking for the Lord to bring that time in - `Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom (rule) to Israel, (over the other nations.) Acts 1: 6.

Nothing at all to do with the Body of Christ purpose which came along many years after that.

You are confusing God`s purposes for - The Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations.

Marilyn.

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi SS, & RT,

I`m still waiting for those scriptures that say -

The Body of Christ, (or church or believers) are the bride/wife of Christ.

What we actually have in scripture is the word `bride` used as a symbol of the city, in eternity, and for the relationship of God with Israel.

Marilyn.

Wrong, the Bride is in New Jerusalem as it descends. It not that complex. I am used to solving complex riddles, what you are speaking about any 10 year old could understand.

 

[Marilyn C]

Wrong, the Bride is in New Jerusalem as it descends. It not that complex. I am used to solving complex riddles, what you are speaking about any 10 year old could understand.

Hi RT,

Let`s see -

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.` (Rev. 21: 2)

So what scriptures do you have to reveal who is in the city?

Marilyn.

 

[seventysevens]

Hi RT,

Let`s see -

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.` (Rev. 21: 2)

So what scriptures do you have to reveal who is in the city?

Marilyn.

Since the New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven - not made with human hands and all of born again believers will spend eternity with Jesus - who do you think would be in that city ?

 

[seventysevens]

Hi SS,

Thought with your comment there I needed to say a few things.

When Jesus was manifested on earth He came to His own, Israel. That is who He is speaking to. He is symbolically their bridegroom and they the wife/bride.

Do you think that Jesus did not know that the Gentile people would become His own ?
You are forgetting that Jesus IS Almighty God - omnipotent all knowing - just because some theologians make suppositions that suppose Jesus did not know things because he was human does not mean they are always correct
As stated Jesus knew all about marriage as He created the concept , He knew who would be his bride - of course it is symbolic , but it represents Commitment between Him and us which is why Jesus used the terms of Bridegroom , He would not call himself the Bridegroom if He had no bride in mind

 

[Micah888]

The leader explained something I never heard about before yet I’ve grown up hearing something different. He was explaining how during the rapture, Christians go with God and he casts Satan away. Then we come back with God on white horses and come back to “earth”, for 1000 years. God releases Satan where he’s allowed to try and deceive us again. And those Christians who he’s able to deceive will be cast out and the ones who remain will then go to the new earth that is described in the Bible.

This is COMPLETELY FALSE. At the Rapture all the saints go to Heaven, are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ for their works, and then the Church becomes the Lamb's Wife (Rev 19). Following that Christ comes -- at His Second Coming -- with His saints and angels to bring judgment on His enemies.

After that Satan is bound during the Millennium. But it is not Christians who inhabit the earth but those saved on earth before the Millennium. All the saints reign with Christ at this time, and Satan cannot touch them before or after the Millennium. The ones deceived by Satan after the Millennium are those who harbored rebellion during the Millennium, therefore they are deceived by him.

 

[Marilyn C]

Since the New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven - not made with human hands and all of born again believers will spend eternity with Jesus - who do you think would be in that city ?

And your scriptures to support that view, SS?

 

[Micah888]

I`m still waiting for those scriptures that say - The Body of Christ, (or church or believers) are the bride/wife of Christ.

There are quite a few Scriptures which make it clear that three spiritual metaphors are used for the Church (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body, with Christ as the Head).

1. The Body
2. The Building
3. The Bride (to eventually become the Lamb's Wife)

So let's see where the last metaphor is used:

A. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2).
Who is the husband? Christ.
Who is the chaste virgin? The perfected Church
What does espoused mean? Married

B. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:23-27)
Is Christ depicted as the Divine Husband? Yes
Is the Church depicted as the perfected Wife? Yes
Is Christian marriage supposed to reflect this? Yes

C. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:6-9).
Whose marriage is presented here? The Lamb's (Christ's)
Who is the Wife who has made herself ready? The Church
Who are the saints clothed with righteousness? The redeemed of the Lord.

The New Jerusalem will be the eternal home of God the Father, the Lamb Christ Jesus, and His Wife, the Church, the saints of God. This is clearly spelled out in John 14:1-3, which tells us that God's people will have mansions in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Marilyn C]

The New Jerusalem will be the eternal home of God the Father, the Lamb Christ Jesus, and His Wife, the Church, the saints of God. This is clearly spelled out in John 14:1-3, which tells us that God's people will have mansions in the New Jerusalem.

Hi Micah,

I had addressed some of your scriptures to others previously. So now we are looking at who is in the city. So you say John 14 tells us that we will be there. However the Lord is speaking to the 12 disciples and in Matthew 19 we read -
`So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

Then we go over to the city, the New Jerusalem and find that yes, the 12 disciples are indeed there.

`Now the wall of the city has 12 foundations, and on them were the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)

So the disciples were promised rulership in the city and that is where we find them. However there is no mention of the Body of Christ. Others are there and we are told in scriptures exactly who they are.

As to the city being the eternal home of the Father and the Lord, I don`t read that in scripture. I read that they rule there (throne), but their seat of rulership is far above all. They do not reside lower than the angels, or even where Lucifer ruled. The Lord Jesus Christ`s throne is in the third heaven and rules over all realms from there.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Micah888]

So now we are looking at who is in the city. So you say John 14 tells us that we will be there. However the Lord is speaking to the 12 disciples and in Matthew 19 we read -
`So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

Hi Marilyn,

First of all, you failed to acknowledge and accept the fact (established through Scripture) that the Bible clearly teaches that the Church is presently the Bride of Christ, and the future Wife of the Lamb. So that is something which you must now clearly accept and believe, in order to delve into this further.

Secondly, since that city's dimensions are 1500 miles x 1500 miles x 1500 miles it would be a rather empty city with just 12 apostles. But when we see the numberless multitude in Heaven (Rev 7:9) we can understand why this cubic city's dimension are so great. And that is the Church, the Body, the Building, and the Bride of the Lamb.

Then we go over to the city, the New Jerusalem and find that yes, the 12 disciples are indeed there.

`Now the wall of the city has 12 foundations, and on them were the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)

This simply confirms that there are only 12 apostles of the Lamb, and these 12 will sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel in the Millennium (and beyond).

So the disciples were promised rulership in the city and that is where we find them. However there is no mention of the Body of Christ.

Of course there is mention of the Body of Christ, but not as "the Body of Christ", but as the Wife of the Lamb. Both those metaphors apply to the Church. Now that you are fully aware that the Wife of the Lamb is the Church, the next thing to recognize is that the New Jerusalem is personified as the Wife of the Lamb. IOW because the occupants are the Wife of the Lamb, the city is alluded to as the Wife of Lamb (as a Bride adorned for her husband:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev 21:1)

As to the city being the eternal home of the Father and the Lord, I don`t read that in scripture.

Well this is clearly revealed in Revelation 21, and that is also after the New Heavens and the New Earth have been established (the eternal state):

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof... And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev 21:22,23;22:5)