Question about some of the OT killings

Sammy-San

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1-I have two questions about the Mosaic Law. The first is this. Why were they so sexist? Why were women stoned for fornication, but men were not? Deuteronomy says that husbands had their wives stoned to death if they werent virgins, regardless if the woman was faithful after marriage. Why werent men punished for fornication in the same harsh way women were, in Moses law? [/qjuote]

You haven't read that very carefully.

Both the woman and the man were to be stoned for adultery.

If a groom suspected that his new bride had not been a virgin, it was up to the bride's mother to produce the proof of virginity, which was the sheet upon which the bride and groom slept on the night of consummation.

If the bride's mother could not produce a blood-stained sheet upon demand, then the bride could be stoned. But...in real life how likely was it the mother could not produce a blood-stained sheet?

Moreover, the penalty for a false accusation was extremely heavy on that groom...how many grooms would bet what was a small fortune that the bride's mother could not produce a blood-stained sheet?

This would only happen if the young woman was promiscuous--that is, having sex before marriage without reporting it to her parents. Rape and seduction--reported to the parents--was handled in ways harsh for the man.



A valid question might be why Jews can talk about it. They still consider that Mosaic covenant valid. The Bronze Age Israelites were an unruly people. Even God said so:

"The Lord spoke further to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed, it is a stubborn people. "Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.'" (Deuteronomy 9:13-14).

Jesus pointed out that the moral compromises of the Mosaic Law was because the people's hearts at that time were hard. Jesus repudiated the moral compromises that God permitted the Israelites (see "Sermon on the Mount").

But Christians are under a different covenant. Christians are not responsible for what God permitted people back in the Bronze Age.

1-That doesnt happen to all women.

2-If she reported it to them, would she still have been punished, according to Old Testament law? What if the woman had premarital sex, but didnt want to get married? It doesnt seem fair that she would be punished then.

God didnt just permit/tolerate barbaric punishments-he actually commanded it. And for the sake of arguement, let's just say God permitted and tolerated those punishments(God tolerated a lot of sin in ancient israel, like polygamy), but why did God ordain those laws to Moses? Ordaining those laws to Moses is different from tolerating the bronze age actions of the ancient Israelites-its condoning and sanctioning it.

While I know that the Bible is true, how do you expect people to know that Christianity is the true religion, when much of the Old Testament seems very similar to radical islam?
 
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RDKirk

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While I know that the Bible is true, how do you expect people to know that Christianity is the true religion, when much of the Old Testament seems very similar to radical islam?

A valid question might be why Jews can talk about it. They still consider that Mosaic covenant valid. The Bronze Age Israelites were an unruly people. Even God said so:

"The Lord spoke further to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed, it is a stubborn people. "Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.'" (Deuteronomy 9:13-14).

Jesus pointed out that the moral compromises of the Mosaic Law was because the people's hearts at that time were hard. Jesus repudiated the moral compromises that God permitted the Israelites (see "Sermon on the Mount").

But Christians are under a different covenant today. God now holds man to a higher standard:

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” -- Acts 17

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
....
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
-- Hebrews 8
 
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Sammy-San

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A valid question might be why Jews can talk about it. They still consider that Mosaic covenant valid. The Bronze Age Israelites were an unruly people. Even God said so:

"The Lord spoke further to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed, it is a stubborn people. "Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.'" (Deuteronomy 9:13-14).

Jesus pointed out that the moral compromises of the Mosaic Law was because the people's hearts at that time were hard. Jesus repudiated the moral compromises that God permitted the Israelites (see "Sermon on the Mount").

But Christians are under a different covenant today. God now holds man to a higher standard:

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” -- Acts 17

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
....
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
-- Hebrews 8

What moral compromises are you talking about? The way the Mosaic Law is worded, it sounds almost as if God condones the harsh laws he ordained, and he condoned what the Bronze Age Israelites did at the time. God tolerated and allowed divorce among the Israelites (which Jesus spoke of), but why did he say "purge the evil among you", and "their blood shall be upon them"? That sounds more than just God morally compromising.

The fact that the Old Covenant is obsolete to Christians and Jews dont view it as obsolete, does not, in my opinion, take away the moral dilemmas regarding what God ordered in the Old Testament.
 
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ALoveDivine

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What moral compromises are you talking about? The way the Mosaic Law is worded, it sounds almost as if God condones the harsh laws he ordained, and he condoned what the Bronze Age Israelites did at the time. God tolerated and allowed divorce among the Israelites (which Jesus spoke of), but why did he say "purge the evil among you", and "their blood shall be upon them"? That sounds more than just God morally compromising.

The fact that the Old Covenant is obsolete to Christians and Jews dont view it as obsolete, does not, in my opinion, take away the moral dilemmas regarding what God ordered in the Old Testament.
Ill ask him for details when I get to heaven. Until then ill content myself to trust him, given that I lack omniscience.

A God who saved my soul eternally and absolutely forgave all my sin past, present, and future with no regard to my works purely out of love and mercy, even to the point of taking his own divine wrath in my place, is more than worthy of my eternal gratitude and trust.

If I dont understand something, so be it. Who are we to criticize the author of so great a salvation? Perhaps we should shut up and trust the one who saved our souls.
 
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Sammy-San

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Ill ask him for details when I get to heaven. Until then ill content myself to trust him, given that I lack omniscience.

A God who saved my soul eternally and absolutely forgave all my sin past, present, and future with no regard to my works purely out of love and mercy, even to the point of taking his own divine wrath in my place, is more than worthy of my eternal gratitude and trust.

If I dont understand something, so be it. Who are we to criticize the author of so great a salvation? Perhaps we should shut up and trust the one who saved our souls.

I dont want to understand everything, but moral issues are things that I feel like I should understand.
 
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Svt4Him

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He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God. We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to.

The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their back on Him. The psalms often speak of God’s mercy poured out on sinners.

He is also just as wrath-filled in the New Testament as He is in the Old. He killed a husband and wife in the Book of Acts, simply because they told one lie. Jesus warned that He was to be feared because He has the power to cast the body and soul into hell. The apostle Paul said that he persuaded men to come to the Savior because he knew the "terror of the Lord." Read the dreadful judgments of the New Testament’s Book of Revelation. That will put the "fear of God" in you, which incidentally is "the beginning of wisdom."

Perhaps the most fearful display of His wrath is seen in the cross of Jesus Christ. His fury so came upon the Messiah that it seems God enshrouded the face of Jesus in darkness so that creation couldn’t gaze upon His unspeakable agony. Whether we like it or not, our God is a consuming fire of holiness (Hebrews 12:29). He isn’t going to change, so we had better ...before the Day of Judgment. If we repent, God, in His mercy, will forgive us and grant us eternal life in heaven with Him.
 
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BryanW92

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The fact that the Old Covenant is obsolete to Christians and Jews dont view it as obsolete, does not, in my opinion, take away the moral dilemmas regarding what God ordered in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is not obsolete for Christians. The history books of the OT are still history. History! Just as we don't read about the American Revolution and go attack the British Embassy, the history of the OT is over. We learn from it, but do not repeat it.

The books of law are still valid somewhat, but they are tempered with the knowledge that God, in the form of Jesus, told us that we cannot live up to that law. But, its still the law.

The books of the prophets are a sign of the power and love of God, who sent those prophets to instruct and warn his people, who generally ignored the prophets and had to be punished--over and over again. They still serve as a warning to us today as we see the protection of God being lifted from the USA and Europe to let savages come in and attack us while we worry about the nude selfies of celebrities and the outcome of sporting events.
 
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RDKirk

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What moral compromises are you talking about? The way the Mosaic Law is worded, it sounds almost as if God condones the harsh laws he ordained, and he condoned what the Bronze Age Israelites did at the time. God tolerated and allowed divorce among the Israelites (which Jesus spoke of), but why did he say "purge the evil among you", and "their blood shall be upon them"? That sounds more than just God morally compromising.

The fact that the Old Covenant is obsolete to Christians and Jews dont view it as obsolete, does not, in my opinion, take away the moral dilemmas regarding what God ordered in the Old Testament.

The Israelites, as I said before, were a savage Bronze Age people. The Mosaic Law brought them a long way toward being civilized. The elements that you see as harsh actually moderated their earlier behavior.

Formerly, a groom who thought he had been duped into marrying a non-virgin would have murdered her immediately and declared war on her family.

The "eye for an eye" rule meant only an eye for an eye--no more revenge than the damage originally suffered--not the endless blood feud they would normally have fought over an eye.

A man before had no limits on how he might abuse and divorce his wife--the Mosaic Law set limits. The same was true of slavery--the Mosaic Law set limits where before there had been none.

Have you read the OT regarding how the sons of Jacob destroyed an entire city after their sister was date-raped by the city's prince? Under the Mosaic Law, that would have been prohibited. The man would have been able to marry her as he desired (and she, by that time, because she was being offered the life of a princess).

The law did not attempt to bring them to moral perfection--at that point in time, they could not have been brought to moral perfection. That was left for a later covenant that would require a higher degree of performance.

There is not a moral dilemma. The Church wasn't built in a day.
 
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fozzy

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The Israelites, as I said before, were a savage Bronze Age people. The Mosaic Law brought them a long way toward being civilized. The elements that you see as harsh actually moderated their earlier behavior.

Formerly, a groom who thought he had been duped into marrying a non-virgin would have murdered her immediately and declared war on her family.

The "eye for an eye" rule meant only an eye for an eye--no more revenge than the damage originally suffered--not the endless blood feud they would normally have fought over an eye.

A man before had no limits on how he might abuse and divorce his wife--the Mosaic Law set limits. The same was true of slavery--the Mosaic Law set limits where before there had been none.

Have you read the OT regarding how the sons of Jacob destroyed an entire city after their sister was date-raped by the city's prince? Under the Mosaic Law, that would have been prohibited. The man would have been able to marry her as he desired (and she, by that time, because she was being offered the life of a princess).

The law did not attempt to bring them to moral perfection--at that point in time, they could not have been brought to moral perfection. That was left for a later covenant that would require a higher degree of performance.

There is not a moral dilemma. The Church wasn't built in a day.

Good post. I'll take rational explanation over brushing it under the rug any day.
 
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Gunny

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As you can see in Exodus (and throughout the OT), even Israel kept falling back into paganism every chance they got. Basically, God needed to create some space for his people to practice monotheism without pagan neighbors, and he needed to show the pagans that his people, with his help, could defeat them and their various gods.

Amen and amen.
 
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Sammy-San

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The Israelites, as I said before, were a savage Bronze Age people. The Mosaic Law brought them a long way toward being civilized. The elements that you see as harsh actually moderated their earlier behavior.

Formerly, a groom who thought he had been duped into marrying a non-virgin would have murdered her immediately and declared war on her family.


The "eye for an eye" rule meant only an eye for an eye--no more revenge than the damage originally suffered--not the endless blood feud they would normally have fought over an eye.

A man before had no limits on how he might abuse and divorce his wife--the Mosaic Law set limits. The same was true of slavery--the Mosaic Law set limits where before there had been none.

Have you read the OT regarding how the sons of Jacob destroyed an entire city after their sister was date-raped by the city's prince? Under the Mosaic Law, that would have been prohibited. The man would have been able to marry her as he desired (and she, by that time, because she was being offered the life of a princess).

The law did not attempt to bring them to moral perfection--at that point in time, they could not have been brought to moral perfection. That was left for a later covenant that would require a higher degree of performance.

There is not a moral dilemma. The Church wasn't built in a day.

If God was only trying to moderate their savage behavior, why did God say "purge this evil from among you"? Reread the verse in Deuteronomy. The way the Bible is worded sounds almost as if God is supporting condoning the barbaric practices of the ancient Israelites. How can you argue that God wasnt condoning the ancient Israelite practice of stoning brides for fornication? Even if he wasnt, the way the Bible is worded sounds exactly as if God was condoning their behavior, and a lot of people (especially people who have no idea of the cultural context of the bronze age middle east) could easily misinterpret that verse.
 
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jbearnolimits

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Lets take a look at the first mass killing in the old testament. It was actually carried out by God Himself. It was the flood. Now why did say He was going to do that?

Genesis 6:5-7
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Our God is full of mercy, and full of justice. It is His to decide the timing, of the sentence pronounced of death, for justice to come to pass. We all already have a day set to die... does it matter how that happens?

But aside from that note, I had once seen a movie where someone asked about how God ordered the killing of entire cities. Then God said that He did so because if they were allowed to continue on earth then they would have caused their wickedness to take over.

God has a purpose for everything He does. And the thought that it is wrong for the judge to have the sentence, already placed on man, carried out is mistaken. There is none good, no not one. And as for the tool He used to carry out His wrath, His people, why is it strange that He would choose His people to overtake those who are not?
 
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RDKirk

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If God was only trying to moderate their savage behavior, why did God say "purge this evil from among you"? Reread the verse in Deuteronomy. The way the Bible is worded sounds almost as if God is supporting condoning the barbaric practices of the ancient Israelites. How can you argue that God wasnt condoning the ancient Israelite practice of stoning brides for fornication? Even if he wasnt, the way the Bible is worded sounds exactly as if God was condoning their behavior, and a lot of people (especially people who have no idea of the cultural context of the bronze age middle east) could easily misinterpret that verse.

How do you imagine the bible was written? Do you imagine that it was written by God dictating each word and a human stenographer took them down word for word?

Or that--presuming that God exists--people had experiences with God and wrote them down as they understood them, and if they were Bronze Age men, they wrote down those experiences as Bronze Age men could understand and articulate them?

When my daughter was small, she asked me a question about our dog, Jack: "Papa, does Jack think he's a human?" I answered, "No, Pun'kin, Jack thinks we're dogs."

Humans, in the same way, tend anthropomorphize God, His actions, and His intentions.
 
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Sammy-San

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The Israelites, as I said before, were a savage Bronze Age people. The Mosaic Law brought them a long way toward being civilized. The elements that you see as harsh actually moderated their earlier behavior.

Formerly, a groom who thought he had been duped into marrying a non-virgin would have murdered her immediately and declared war on her family.

The "eye for an eye" rule meant only an eye for an eye--no more revenge than the damage originally suffered--not the endless blood feud they would normally have fought over an eye.

A man before had no limits on how he might abuse and divorce his wife--the Mosaic Law set limits. The same was true of slavery--the Mosaic Law set limits where before there had been none.

Have you read the OT regarding how the sons of Jacob destroyed an entire city after their sister was date-raped by the city's prince? Under the Mosaic Law, that would have been prohibited. The man would have been able to marry her as he desired (and she, by that time, because she was being offered the life of a princess).

The law did not attempt to bring them to moral perfection--at that point in time, they could not have been brought to moral perfection. That was left for a later covenant that would require a higher degree of performance.

There is not a moral dilemma. The Church wasn't built in a day.

Here are two Bible verses that contradict your claim that the Mosaic Law verses which ordain harsh punishments were simply God's attempts to moderate the barbaric practices of the Bronze Age Israelites. What do these two verses in Leviticus have anything to do with regulating the barbarism of the Israelites? Please explain.

Leviticus 21:9 says this.
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Leviticus 20:13 says.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 21:9 says that the punishment in ancient Israel for a priests daughter becoming a prostitute was to be burned at the stake. That is viewed as cruel and unusual punishment in the US today. It's barbaric. How is burning at the stake a step above Bronze Age brutality?
 
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jbearnolimits

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You need to understand the time in which this was written, about 3500 years ago. The world was a much different place and it was extremely barbaric. You cannot judge those ancient people or God by how we live today. I can remember growing up in the 80's and that was a lot different than today. That was only 30 years ago.

Yeah, the world is a different place. But the word of God has never changed. He is no respecter of persons, so barbarian or not, the law is the same. No matter what time period we are in.

We seem to forget that we are not supposed to be a judge over the law (to say it is good or bad). We are judged BY the law. The law says we are sinners and must die. When a woman sleeps with someone other than her husband the law says she must be stoned. Sin carries the penalty of death.

Now lets look at what happened with Jesus. There was a woman taken in the act of adultery (I find it odd that they didn't bring the man too, but that is another subject). They told Him that under the law she had to be stoned.

This was true, and Jesus knew it. So what did He do? He said he who is without sin can cast the first stone. He didn't say they should not carry out the sentence of death. He only said that they were worthy of death too.

But there He was, the only one left standing there. The stones were on the ground in front of the only one who could have carried out the punishment without being condemned himself. He had every right to do so.

But He didn't. Why? At first glance it may look like Jesus disobeyed the law here. But what does the law say?

Matthew 12:7

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew 12:10-12

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Remember that the law must be used properly. Jesus did not condemn the adulterous woman because the law includes the ability for mercy to overcome. He said I do not accuse you. With no accuser, there is no case to put someone on trial.

Note also that He said go and sin no more. The Old Testament gives space for repentance. As God has said, if a wicked person turns from their wickedness I will not remember their wickedness.

The law is not obsolete. It is very much in effect today. We are not the ones who judge it, we are the ones judged BY it.

Thanks be to God for the chance given to us for repentance and faith in Him. Thanks be to God for the gift of salvation, paid for by His son who died in place of us. The innocent laying down His life for the guilty, to bring us to repentance, and to justify us having paid the price of our sins already.
 
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RDKirk

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Leviticus 21:9 says that the punishment in ancient Israel for a priests daughter becoming a prostitute was to be burned at the stake. That is viewed as cruel and unusual punishment in the US today. It's barbaric. How is burning at the stake a step above Bronze Age brutality?

Penalties were harsh (although, ultimately, death is death).

The requirements to prove such charges were quite strict, however. They were stricter than evidential requirements in a modern court of law, in fact. US prisons would be nearly empty if they were forced to use the same rules of evidence as the Mosaic Law.

Perhaps in modern society we strive to make executions "cleaner" because we convict on so much less evidence, therefore we execute many, many more people.
 
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Sammy-San

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Penalties were harsh (although, ultimately, death is death).

The requirements to prove such charges were quite strict, however. They were stricter than evidential requirements in a modern court of law, in fact. US prisons would be nearly empty if they were forced to use the same rules of evidence as the Mosaic Law.

Perhaps in modern society we strive to make executions "cleaner" because we convict on so much less evidence, therefore we execute many, many more people.

So youre saying that the harsh laws of Leviticus only existed on the books to scare people, but werent actually enforced? I've heard a similar argument regarding the wars of the Old Testament-that a lot of the language people used when they wrote in ancient Hebrew was figurative and was only written to sound dramatic. What exactly were the rules of evidence of the Mosaic Law?
 
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fozzy

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So youre saying that the harsh laws of Leviticus only existed on the books to scare people, but werent actually enforced? I've heard a similar argument regarding the wars of the Old Testament-that a lot of the language people used when they wrote in ancient Hebrew was figurative and was only written to sound dramatic. What exactly were the rules of evidence of the Mosaic Law?

God has revealed himself and his law in stages. The Mosaic law was the first stage like what you would teach to children. It was not perfect and would never make anyone who kept it perfect. It just kept the peace and prevented anarchy.

The Mosaic law only governed the outward actions. If I had burning passion for my neighbor's wife but somehow had enough will-power not to commit the act then the law saw me as innocent. Jesus did away with all this hypocrisy with the sermon on the mount by showing that the desire itself was sin. This was a revelation and showed that the true law which governs us is spiritual not a carnal - 'thou shalt not'.

The gross hypocrisy and legalism of the Pharisees was a direct result of the Mosaic law. This is why it was done away with and replaced by the law of love. Most people even today have the notion that if they keep all the rules they are good people. They're not good people, just well behaved sinners!!!
 
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