question about parish (EO)

[archer75]

Is the St. Sergius of Radonezh church in Valley Cottage, NY a ROCOR parish?

Tolstoy Foundation - Valley Cottage, New York - St. Sergius of Radonezh Photos

 

[ArmyMatt]

it looks like it's not a parish, but a way to preserve Russian culture.

 

[archer75]

it looks like it's not a parish, but a way to preserve Russian culture.

The Tolstoy Foundation is indeed that. But I mean the church pictured at the link. I don't know what it is formally, but it has regular services with clergy. But I can't find it listed as ROCOR or anywhere else. And it doesn't seem to have it's own parish website.

Did it just never get listed because it gets filed under "Tolstoy Foundation"? I guess I'm asking, is it a "canonical" parish?

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Tolstoy Foundation is indeed that. But I mean the church pictured at the link. I don't know what it is formally, but it has regular services with clergy. But I can't find it listed as ROCOR or anywhere else. And it doesn't seem to have it's own parish website.

Did it just never get listed because it gets filed under "Tolstoy Foundation"? I guess I'm asking, is it a "canonical" parish?

I didn't see it on the Episcopal Assembly directory, so I don't think so.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just mentioning in case this is a possibility -

Near us is a Church that was built by a Greek family and has eventually become more of a landmark - place people visit.

But it is used for canonical services by canonical priests.

It is not listed on the Bishop's site - I just re-checked.

I just thought maybe if the primary function is cultural - the Church you're looking for may be similar?

If it's an only or a necessary option, can you possibly check out the priest instead?

But I'm glad you're being careful. That's certainly necessary.

 

[archer75]

Just mentioning in case this is a possibility -

Near us is a Church that was built by a Greek family and has eventually become more of a landmark - place people visit.

But it is used for canonical services by canonical priests.

It is not listed on the Bishop's site - I just re-checked.

I just thought maybe if the primary function is cultural - the Church you're looking for may be similar?

If it's an only or a necessary option, can you possibly check out the priest instead?

But I'm glad you're being careful. That's certainly necessary.

Yes. It's associated with a Russian-language school and cultural foundation. I get the feeling the parishioners are mostly families that have been attached to it for the last 90 years or so. SO Ithink it may be as you say, plus they don't want to advertise, or something.

Even schismstics post their service times. This place, I can barely find mention online that they even hold services. You have to go there and look at the bulletin board.

They commemorated the ROCOR hierarchs you'd expect, so that's a good sign.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes. It's associated with a Russian-language school and cultural foundation. I get the feeling the parishioners are mostly families that have been attached to it for the last 90 years or so. SO Ithink it may be as you say, plus they don't want to advertise, or something.

Even schismstics post their service times. This place, I can barely find mention online that they even hold services. You have to go there and look at the bulletin board.

They commemorated the ROCOR hierarchs you'd expect, so that's a good sign.

The same is true of the Greek Church near here. It's almost impossible to find out when the services will be.

And I think it's the same - people attached to it for generations. There's a parish in a nearby city where I'm guessing they may more often attend.

Just thought it could possibly be something like that. In case not knowing means you miss out on something.

 

[archer75]

The parish I inquired about is in schism from ROCOR.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The parish I inquired about is in schism from ROCOR.

Ah well that would probably answer it then. Too bad.

 

[archer75]

Ah well that would probably answer it then. Too bad.

It's a beautiful church in a beautiful setting. And apparently it fell victim to the schism stuff around the time of the ROCOR-MP reunion. And then to further schism...

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's a beautiful church in a beautiful setting. And apparently it fell victim to the schism stuff around the time of the ROCOR-MP reunion. And then to further schism...

Well I know nothing really of those politics. I don't know if it's possible to hope for reunification.

 

[archer75]

Well I know nothing really of those politics. I don't know if it's possible to hope for reunification.

I suppose it looked that way with ROCOR, too, in the 40s, 50s, or 60s. But then it was just a matter of time, waiting for a fresh set of bishops who would be open to the idea. So, it's really too bad, but I suppose in the end (in the next 50 years, or less), these parishes will either dwindle to no parishioners and no clergy...or return. I find it a real downer, though.

 

[rakovsky]

I think the story goes that back in the 1920s patriarch Tikhon in Moscow decided that Orthodox clergy could set up their own independent groups due to the conflict of Interest in Russia between the Soviet government and the Orthodox Church. This was in the context of the Russian Civil War and repression against the church and a policy or promotion of atheism buy some agencies of the Soviet government like the ministry of culture. I don't know if the Soviet government was officially atheist but anyway there was some promotion of it. There may have been controversy over whether he did in fact order such a protective measure, or whether he ever rescinded it because he he eventually came to some kind of understanding or compromise with the Soviet authorities. But anyway patriarch Tikhon's order became a key justification for the creation of Rocor in the 1920s.

Then in the 1980s the Soviet Union reformed itself and celebrated the christianization of Russia in an official celebration. And in the 1990s and 2000s, the Soviet Union fell and the government either officially or unofficially became very Pro orthodox. So then the question becomes whether Saint Tikhon's original instruction for creating a separate church group was still in force. The justification of avoiding anti Christian repression no matter how you look at it doesn't seem to carry any reasonable weight. So the official decision by rocor in 2007 was to reunite with the Moscow patriarchate.

But there was a small minority of clergy and groups in the ROCOR, Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, that didn't agree with the reunion. My understanding is that they objected to close relations between the Russian government and the Russian Church. The connotation from their complaint seems to be that the Russian Church is controlled or infiltrated by the Russian government and that the Russian government is dictatorial. My guess is that the real issue or strongest Factor in their reluctance to stay with rocor is the experience of the Cold War and that some of them perhaps including the Tolstoy Foundation were involved in Cold War policies or activities and can't accept reuniting with a church with close relations with the successor government of the former Soviet Union. But that being the case, it seems to me that according to their concerns and desire to avoid reuniting with the Moscow patriarchate, then their normal option would be to join the OCA, which is a church independent of the Moscow patriarchate and has lots of room for Russian cultural religious activities that conservative tradition groups like R o c or focuses on. So sadly they are being schismatic or vagante, depending on how you want to define it. And it's hard to see a good reason in the current situation why they would want to avoid joining one of the canonical groups, especially the OCA but maybe they have some practical reasons why they like to stay in schism. Maybe they don't care very much about the Doctrine of being in communion with World Orthodoxy or something like that.

 

[archer75]

Judging from the tone of certain materials online, I suspect that a part of it is also that there are some people who like to operate without any possibility of oversight. If that's how you want to be, then naturally, you want to be in schism.

 

[Euodius]

But there was a small minority of clergy and groups in the ROCOR, Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, that didn't agree with the reunion. My understanding is that they objected to close relations between the Russian government and the Russian Church. The connotation from their complaint seems to be that the Russian Church is controlled or infiltrated by the Russian government and that the Russian government is dictatorial. My guess is that the real issue or strongest Factor in their reluctance to stay with rocor is the experience of the Cold War and that some of them perhaps including the Tolstoy Foundation were involved in Cold War policies or activities and can't accept reuniting with a church with close relations with the successor government of the former Soviet Union. But that being the case, it seems to me that according to their concerns and desire to avoid reuniting with the Moscow patriarchate, then their normal option would be to join the OCA, which is a church independent of the Moscow patriarchate and has lots of room for Russian cultural religious activities that conservative tradition groups like R o c or focuses on. So sadly they are being schismatic or vagante, depending on how you want to define it. And it's hard to see a good reason in the current situation why they would want to avoid joining one of the canonical groups, especially the OCA but maybe they have some practical reasons why they like to stay in schism. Maybe they don't care very much about the Doctrine of being in communion with World Orthodoxy or something like that.

They don't believe anything has changed in the MP since Sergius - that the MP hasn't been repentant of the Sergianist heresy (which isn't entirely false... that giant church they are building as a memorial for the "Great Patriotic War.") The OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP in the middle of the MP's greatest corruption, so they don't accept the autocephaly of the OCA and also consider the OCA to be traitorous - since the Metropolis changed it's stance concerning the MP and appealed for autocephaly and snubbed ROCOR. The problem they have is that the rest of ROCOR went the way of the OCA instead of keeping to the claims ROCOR had already made concerning the situation.

They are a bit fragmentary right now, but like with the Greek Old Calendarists, we'll probably see them slowly become more organized and united. Similarly, some groups are crazy spin-offs while others hold to more rational positions. They are tentatively in communion with the Old Calendarists (ROCOR, including Fr. Seraphim Rose, has always been sympathetic to the Old Calendarists - while not necessarily fully approving either.)

It's a mess.

 

[archer75]

They don't believe anything has changed in the MP since Sergius - that the MP hasn't been repentant of the Sergianist heresy (which isn't entirely false... that giant church they are building as a memorial for the "Great Patriotic War.") The OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP in the middle of the MP's greatest corruption, so they don't accept the autocephaly of the OCA and also consider the OCA to be traitorous - since the Metropolis changed it's stance concerning the MP and appealed for autocephaly and snubbed ROCOR. The problem they have is that the rest of ROCOR went the way of the OCA instead of keeping to the claims ROCOR had already made concerning the situation.

They are a bit fragmentary right now, but like with the Greek Old Calendarists, we'll probably see them slowly become more organized and united. Similarly, some groups are crazy spin-offs while others hold to more rational positions. They are tentatively in communion with the Old Calendarists (ROCOR, including Fr. Seraphim Rose, has always been sympathetic to the Old Calendarists - while not necessarily fully approving either.)

It's a mess.

It doesn"t make sense, though...they were cool with being in communion with jurisdictions who were in communion with the MP until 2007, then suddenly the MP is so poisonous they have to break with everyone who'd in communion with the MP?

 

[rakovsky]

They don't believe anything has changed in the MP since Sergius - that the MP hasn't been repentant of the Sergianist heresy (which isn't entirely false... that giant church they are building as a memorial for the "Great Patriotic War.")

Theologically, their justification for remaining in conflict with the MP looks like a moot point. Their argument that the MP was undermined by having relations with the Soviet government would be logical in 1920-1990, but once the Soviet government fell and was replaced with a Russian government without the Atheist leanings/tendencies/policies of the Soviet government, the point becomes moot.

The MP's policy of reconciliation or compromise with the Soviets, to the extent that it was ecclesiastically undue, was not really something that the MP preferred, but rather forced on it by circumstances. To object to the MP still over this and still hold a grudge against the MP 30 years later sounds like Donatism. Sergianism today, ie reconciling with the Soviets, is not really a "doctrine" that the MP needs to repent of. It's a policy that is now a moot point theologically.

To give an analogy, if some Greeks broke off from the EP because the EP was under Turkey, it would make sense if they wanted to be out of communion with the EP or wanted to set up an "EP IN EXILE" group. But if Istanbul was retaken by the Greeks, it would become a moot point. There would be no practical , need for the EP to repent of its past with the Turks, because we are talking about a policy from 30 years earlier, not an ongoing theological conflict.

I can see a practical concern if they are worried that rejoining the MP could lead to the Kremlin potentially influencing them, but that practical concern also becomes moot when you consider the OCA as an option for them.

I can see that they are upset about past history regarding the OCA and MP regarding relations with the USSR's government, but like I said, we are talking about something from 30 years ago regarding a government that is not Atheist-promoting since then, and is arguably Orthodox today. Christians are supposed to aim for reconciliation and unity and put political histories like that aside.

 

[rakovsky]

It doesn"t make sense, though...they were cool with being in communion with jurisdictions who were in communion with the MP until 2007, then suddenly the MP is so poisonous they have to break with everyone who'd in communion with the MP?

It's a practical issue. In 2006 they were in communion with those other churches (eg. the Serbs and JP) by virtue of being part of ROCOR. In 2007 they broke communion with ROCOR, and ROCOR up to their break was in communion with those other churches (eg Serbia and the JP). So when they broke with ROCOR and still were out of communion with the MP, they became a break-off from ROCOR. So de facto the result of that break off was that they were no longer in communion with Serbia and the JP.

 

[archer75]

It's a practical issue. In 2006 they were in communion with those other churches (eg. the Serbs and JP) by virtue of being part of ROCOR. In 2007 they broke communion with ROCOR, and ROCOR up to their break was in communion with those other churches (eg Serbia and the JP). So when they broke with ROCOR and still were out of communion with the MP, they became a break-off from ROCOR. So de facto the result of that break off was that they were no longer in communion with Serbia and the JP.

I can't argue with you, but I've completely failed to understand this at all.

I won't say any more so as not to derail the thread, but I am totally unable to follow. Thank you for trying, though.

 

[Euodius]

It's a practical issue. In 2006 they were in communion with those other churches (eg. the Serbs and JP) by virtue of being part of ROCOR. In 2007 they broke communion with ROCOR, and ROCOR up to their break was in communion with those other churches (eg Serbia and the JP). So when they broke with ROCOR and still were out of communion with the MP, they became a break-off from ROCOR. So de facto the result of that break off was that they were no longer in communion with Serbia and the JP.

Yes, and for that reason it would make sense if they appealed to Serbia. The EP eating up the JP's international properties would have been a roadblock to that route.