Question about Jesus and Moses

BobRyan

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A. Moses and Elijah stand "with Jesus" in glory - before the cross - in Matt 17.

B. Mark 7:6-13 says that to reject the writing of Moses is to reject the Word of God.

C. Luke 16 concludes with this lesson "if they do not listen to Moses - then they will not listen though one rises from the dead".

==============================

In the case of the woman caught in adultery - there are three subtle details

1. The Jews were not allowed to kill someone - that is why they went to Pilate and asked him to give them permission to kill Jesus. So "it was a trap" for Jesus since the nation of Israel was no longer in a Theocracy - its civil laws about the death penalty could not be enforced.

2. John 8 - tells you something is wrong - and the one who is guilty is not the woman

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4 they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

If she was "in the very act" then the man is guilty and should be stoned as well. The truth is the man is right there - he is one of the leaders who wants to stone her. This is perverted justice by the church leaders!!! They should all have been stoned.

So Jesus says "let him who is without sin - cast the first stone" - then Jesus begins writing the sins of the men standing there - in the sand, starting with the oldest. And as they draw near to see what he is writing they depart sheepishly - starting with the oldest.

3. At the end Jesus says "where are your accusers" -- according to the Law of scripture she would have to have accusers - and she said "there are none" -- all had left. But that left one accuser - who was without sin -- Jesus was her Savior not her accuser -- John 3 "He did not come to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved" --

So Jesus answered her unspoken thought "neither do I accuse thee - go and sin no more".

now you know.



It is important to realize that the story of the woman caught in adultery is almost certainly a later addition to the Gospel and therefore its authenticity is questionable. Most Bibles include this as a footnote and/or put the section in double brackets to show this.

Bible slicing-and-dicing not an acceptable method of Bible study for me.

That being said, how can you say "... the man is guilty and should be stoned as well.
The truth is the man is right there - he is one of the leaders who wants to stone her." How do you know this?

1. The Bible says both are guilty not just the woman in that case.
2. The text says both were caught - so both should have been on trial and/or under accusation.
3. The man is not being accused -- because he is one of the accusers.

There is no indication of what Jesus wrote on the ground. None.

Well what He writes causes the eldest among them to leave first - and one by one until all have run away. It is their sins because Jesus begins with "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" - and right then is when He begins to write ... their sins. They leave since they cannot cast not even the first stone
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus was making changes to the Law

He states in Matt 5 that that is exactly what He was NOT doing.

17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! 19 Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The New Covenant is in the Old Testament - Jer 31:31-34. the New Testament merely quotes the Old Testament when it comes to the "New Covenant" as we see in Heb 8:6-12.

So it is "still a sin" even in the New Testament - to take God's name in vain.
 
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4UallPraise

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Understandability has been added because of Jesus. The first breath was for life and the second breath (given to the church) to establish (complete) what the law had represented.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
 
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BobRyan

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The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

That strengthens the "Thou shalt not kill" statement -- magnifying it time 1000, rather then destroying/abolishing it.

So Jesus says "KEEP the Commandments" later on ( in Matthew 19 ) -- and when asked "which ones" Jesus goes back and repeats "thou shalt not kill" - This is irrefutable.


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

Gen 17 is not a command that all gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. It is specific to Abraham and his literal/physical descendants. Abraham pays tribute/Tithe to the King of Salem - who is saved and not a descendant of Abraham.

No OT text ever said that circumcision applies to gentiles and so we see in Acts 13 and 17 and 18 they have gentiles in synagogues that worship God and are not circumcised.


Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8 "All nations" as God said .. not "one nation"

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23.

The Sabbath "made for mankind - not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27
 
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That strengthens the "Thou shalt not kill" statement -- magnifying it time 1000, rather then destroying/abolishing it.

So Jesus says "KEEP the Commandments" later on ( in Matthew 19 ) -- and when asked "which ones" Jesus goes back and repeats "thou shalt not kill" - This is irrefutable.




Gen 17 is not a command that all gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. It is specific to Abraham and his literal/physical descendants. Abraham pays tribute/Tithe to the King of Salem - who is saved and not a descendant of Abraham.

No OT text ever said that circumcision applies to gentiles and so we see in Acts 13 and 17 and 18 they have gentiles in synagogues that worship God and are not circumcised.


Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8 "All nations" as God said .. not "one nation"

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23.

The Sabbath "made for mankind - not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27

I am not your average Christian who believes they can sin and still be saved on some level. I believe the Moral Law (like do not kill, do not covet, do not steal) has carried over into the New Covenant and it applies today. John says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15), and I believe him.

Now, Romans 13:8-10 basically says that loving your neighbor essentially fulfills the Old Law. So there is a New Law in town. It is the Law of Christ (Which are the commands that come from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament) (Galatians 6:2) (1 Corinthians 9:21) (Romans 8:2). We cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (See Acts of the Apostles 13:39).
 
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He states in Matt 5 that that is exactly what He was NOT doing.

17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! 19 Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The New Covenant is in the Old Testament - Jer 31:31-34. the New Testament merely quotes the Old Testament when it comes to the "New Covenant" as we see in Heb 8:6-12.

So it is "still a sin" even in the New Testament - to take God's name in vain.

What our Lord meant is that He (Jesus) did not come to abolish all forms of Law, but He came to fulfill or perfect the Old Law by bringing in the New Law.
 
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Bible slicing-and-dicing not an acceptable method of Bible study for me.



1. The Bible says both are guilty not just the woman in that case.
2. The text says both were caught - so both should have been on trial and/or under accusation.
3. The man is not being accused -- because he is one of the accusers.



Well what He writes causes the eldest among them to leave first - and one by one until all have run away. It is their sins because Jesus begins with "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" - and right then is when He begins to write ... their sins. They leave since they cannot cast not even the first stone

Bible slicing-and-dicing not an acceptable method of Bible study for me either.

Here is the section from John, with my highlights..

John 8:1-11, "But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. [There is no mention of the man here] They made her stand in front of them and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. [There is no mention of the man here either. Your statement that the text says both were caught is false] In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. [Again, no mention of the man] What then do you say?” (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. [There is no indication of what He wrote] When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.." Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground." [Again, no mention of what He wrote. It doesn't say that he wrote their sins]

Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. [No mention of the man among them] Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you [singular] either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”

I don't understand why you have to add unsupported details to this story. The Bible says what it says, not what you say it says.

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the entire story is a later addition to the text. The story is not found in the earliest texts of John's Gospel.
 
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... there is considerable evidence that the entire story is a later addition to the text. The story is not found in the earliest texts of John's Gospel.

No. It's not a forgery.
How so? Well...

What did Jesus write on the ground in John 8?

John 4:14 says,

"...the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."​

John 7:37-39 says,

37 "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"​

This relates. We can know what Jesus was writing in the ground when the Jews tested him in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery by looking at other Scripture. By Scripture, we see a reference to the LORD [Jesus], the fountain of living waters [the Holy Spirit].

Jeremiah 17:13 says,

"O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD [i.e. Jesus], the fountain of living waters [i.e. the Holy Ghost]."​

Note 1: The words in brackets in light blue (above) is my commentary to the text.

Note 2: Words in bright red are references to the Holy Spirit. Words in green is in reference to the Tree of Life, the door, who is Jesus.

Note 3: In the words in the above verse, you will notice that they (the Jews) that were accusing Jesus in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery, their names were written down in the earth. This is what Jesus was writing in the Earth. Jesus was writing down the names of those who had forsaken the Lord. I highlighted the words in purple above in Jeremiah to show that their names written in the earth as we behold in the scene in John 8.

Note 4: We tie this together because of the words, "the LORD, the fountain of living waters" in Jeremiah 17:13 is tied to John 7:38 that says, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Again, John 7:38 says,

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."​

Here is the scene with Jesus writing in the ground with the Jews in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:4-6 says,

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. "​

What is interesting is that the very previous chapter (John 7), we are told that anyone who believes in Jesus out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Yet, in Jeremiah 17:13, we learn that this fountain of living waters is what these Jews rejected and their names were written in the ground because they forsaken the Lord.

So yes. It's true. John 8 belongs in your Bible.
The testimony of the whole of Scripture confirms this.
So don't listen to scholars and their lies.
You can trust your Bible over what any scholar says.
 
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