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Question about Jesus and Moses

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by fatherforgivethem, Apr 13, 2021.

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  1. fatherforgivethem

    fatherforgivethem He will never leave you nor forsake you.

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    Hi, I'm new to Bible and I have a question:

    On John 8, the pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery and said to Jesus that Moses said that they should stone the woman, then Jesus said Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her".

    The laws that Moses brought were directly from God and although I didn't read the entire OT yet, I don't remember it saying that they should stone a woman for adultery, but God said that they should stone a man because he was working on sabbath day.

    It's not the same thing, obviously, but why Jesus didn't keep the laws from Moses and God of stoning people?
     
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Here's what I have on it:

    I think the entire scenario was staged and fake and was used to try to trick Christ into making the wrong judgment. That's something they did to Christ often to try to show his judgment was wrong or against Jewish law. I don't believe the woman was caught in adultery, and she wasn't in danger of being stoned. They were just testing Christ and I think he knew it from the beginning.

    Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    They are leaving out that the witnesses of her supposed act of adultery are supposed to be present, as is the man she supposedly committed adultery with.

    Deu_17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

    These are the first clues that this entire thing is not proper. If she had actually been caught in adultery and had proper witnesses then the law did say she should be stoned.


    Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

    The tempting means there is something not legal or proper in all of this. There was no woman caught in adultery and definitely no man present that was caught in adultery with her. They simply wanted him to convict her without the proper evidence of guilt and they would be able to use that against him.

    Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

    The man committing this supposed adultery wasn't there with the accused woman. Declaring the woman to be guilty and stoned but no man whom she committed the sin with means she cannot be legally convicted by herself. That would be a breach of the law and against the law itself. If Christ said she was guilty and to stone her, he would be in error since the man would have to be present and convicted as well.

    No death sentence can be pronounced without at least two witnesses and there were none presented in the scenario. There is no such thing as a one person act of adultery. Not guilty is the only correct answer possible.
     
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  3. fatherforgivethem

    fatherforgivethem He will never leave you nor forsake you.

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    Thanks for the response, really useful.

    Just one more question: God said on Leviticus and Numbers 15:32-36 that people that commit things like that should be stoned/killed, so why people don't do that nowadays?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  4. honey badger

    honey badger i am

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    the laws of Moses is mans perception of Gods law, of which there is just one ...
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Well, that was written to Jews in the religion of Judaism so it doesn't apply to Christians in Christianity. You would need to ask people who are in the religion of Judaism about stoning in modern times.
     
  6. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For the law came by Moses, ... but grace (i.e. forgiveness) and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17

    Jesus didn't come to enforce the OT Law (of Moses). The Law was part of the Old Covenant and was made specifically with the descendants of Jacob/Israel. The Israelites/Hebrews attempted to keep their side of the Law for more than a millennium and utterly failed.

    The Old Covenant was given by God to demonstrate the futility of trying to maintain a relationship with God based upon our own worthiness. We don't do enough RIGHT and do too much WRONG to consistently please God.

    The Mosaic Covenant also demonstrates that sin cannot be expunged from the human race through punishing or even eliminating those that sin. Despite these efforts which, admittedly, were not consistently applied during the Old Covenant period, ... sin proved to be quite consistent ... and even prolific.

    Hebrews 8

    6 But now He (Jesus) has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

    Jesus came to offer God's new solution for enabling relationship between Himself and humanity. He would, simply, FORGIVE sin ... at the asking of those with those who were pleased to have communion with Him. No more sacrificing of animals to atone for individual sin. Rather, one for-all-time sacrifice for the sins of ALL humanity ... enabling forgiveness upon request ... for those maintaining communion with God.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ... that whoever puts their trust in Him will not utterly perish, but will have everlasting life with Him.
     
  7. paul1149

    paul1149 that your faith might rest in the power of God Supporter

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    The Law of Moses was the law of the land, as Israel was a theocracy. That is not the case with the church, which is a universal spiritual brotherhood. Thus we have the foundation for separation of church and state. (Note, that does not mean moral principles should not inform the state.)

    We are under a better covenant than had the Israelites, a covenant of the spirit, not of the letter. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life (2Cor 3). At Galatians 2 Paul calls the Mosaic law a "prosthesis". It was a temporary artificial limb by which man could limp along until the true limb appeared.
     
  8. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Welcome!
    Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled the law. He constantly pointed out that the law condemns the heart first. He elevated the law to LOVE. Here are His words on the matter. Be blessed.
    21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. Matthew 5
     
  9. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    The story of the woman caught in adultery is almost certainly a later addition to the Bible by an overzealous scribe. Don't pay too much attention to it.
     
  10. NomNomPizza

    NomNomPizza Active Member

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    this way he showed them he is the God because he can change laws at his will and pardon anybody he wants and forgive sins

    also he said Sabbath law doesn't apply to him
    17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    Sabbath is day of rest for man , God works always as u see
     
  11. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Jesus said in Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    So Jesus said, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments,” No matter what you read in the Bible, these commandments have to be kept to enter into life, or you will be judge by them. Now let’s read further into what Jesus is saying here in Matthew… Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    This includes the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

    This also include,Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (which includes Easter, Christmas, going to church on Sunday and any other pagan or tradition of men that may cause another God to be worship)

    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

    Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:3-8)
     
  12. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Even though your post is "all over the place", this stuck out: "No matter what you read in the Bible, these commandments have to be kept to enter into life, or you will be judge by them."

    1) No matter what you read in the Bible..." The Bible is the Word of God. Every word, every syllable is there for a reason. Nothing in the Bible should be ignored.

    2) Then you quote the Bible!! But you omit what follows your quote from Matthew: "The young man said to him, “I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” So obviously there is something more than obeying the OT laws.

    3) Read my "signature" below. You can't take verses out of context from the Old Testament and apply them as law to Christians. I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove, but you're not only wrong but "all over the place" with your reasoning.
     
  13. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Let's continue reading in Matthew 19: 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    So the problem was the young man was rich and even though he kept the commandments as he and we should all, Jesus ask him to sell them all and give to the poor and follow him, he had great possession. Always read a little further.
     
  14. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I have read the entire story. The young man obviously cared more about his wealth, so much so that he was unable to put God's will first in his life.

    Matthew 19:23-26, " Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven! Again I say, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of God.” The disciples were greatly astonished when they heard this and said, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and replied, “This is impossible for mere humans, but for God all things are possible.”

    The problem was not that the young man was rich -- that is not a problem -- but that he was too attached to his worldly possessions. He put his faith in his wealth instead of trusting God.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  15. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    I agree with you, but you double speaking. The young man being rich was his problem, because if he wasn't rich, then he wouldn't have put his faith in his wealth. It would have been easier for him to follow Jesus.
     
  16. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    If he wasn't young... if he wasn't rich... Those are suppositions only. He was rich and he was young. There is no point in rewriting Scripture. The man was both young and rich. He was too attached to his wealth.

    Perhaps somebody who was older and/or not wealthy would have been more inclined to follow Jesus, but that's not what the Bible story is about.
     
  17. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Jesus says in Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Age is not a factor in these verses.
     
  18. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    So what? We are discussing the situation described before this...

    "The young man said to him, “I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he was very rich."

    The parable is about a young man, so clearly age is a factor in the verses before the ones you cited. Do you think that the Bible should be changed to match what you think it should say?

    If his age wasn't important why is it a factor in the story?
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It's more of a detail than a factor. It isn't easier to for an old rich man to get into heaven. The important part is the being rich. Many rich people havg been buried with treasure because they think that will help them in the next life rather than being faithful to God.
     
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    John 8:6
    6 This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not.

    KJV

    I concur with ewq1938 that they did not actually catch the woman in the act, but were trying to setup our Lord Jesus.

    Where does that move of His stooping down to write in the dirt come from? I believe He was pointing to Numbers 5:12-31. With a woman suspected of adultery by her husband, she was to be taken to the priest and put before God, swear an oath, and drink of the bitter waters the priest made, and if she swelled up as from poison it would prove her guilt. But if she didn't swell up, she would be cleared. The priest in administering the oath to her was to 'write' the curse down in a book.
     
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