Question about eternal damnation

[Ronald]

Dear Ronald: Since we are "commanded" to "teach" God is the Saviour of all mankind, there simply is zero strain involved! Our God is NOT a potential Saviour; He is Saviour of all mankind! But wait God is not only Saviour of all/pas mankind, He is Saviour of the malista!

From Him the all, through Him the all, in Him the all

You ignore all the scriptures where Jesus specifically said ... "believe > life , but if you don't believe > you will not see life, you will die in your sins, judgment and wrath, forfeit of soul, torment, darkness, fire, destruction.
You somehow make Hades and Hell into a purgatory where all sins are burned off for everyone regardless and that a second chance of forgiveness is offered in darkness where the knowledge of God does not exist, where no hope exists, a place void of anything good!

You claim to believe Jesus, but you don't believe His statements concerning death and judgment, you take a broad brush over all as if, He really didn't mean what He said or you must distort it to mean something else.
A philosophy created by a few (which is what I think Universalism has), picks and chooses the verses that work for their belief system and discards or distorts the rest. As I said earlier, liberalism does this. The idea that all will be saved removes anyone's responsibility to come to the Lord today. No, they can have it their own way and figure I'll get to heaven regardless of my wicked, selfish, lifestyle filled with the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. This philosophy gives all men a pass, not free, but may involve suffering and torment for a while but than all will be made good. Both Catholic and Protestant religions including the majority of non-denominational Christian faiths would disagree with your views. There are currently 2.42 billion Christians, about 1/3 of the world's population which is about 7.7 billion. Only 800,000 are Universalists which is about 1/3000th. I'll go along with the majority, thank you very much. Good Day.

 

[FineLinen]

I'll go along with the majority, thank you very much. Good Day.

Dear Ronald: The majority is always right.

Mark Twain once advised: “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”

"Every created thing (παν κτισμα — pān ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3, with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (κτισις — ktisis) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off." -F.W.Robertson-

 

[Ronald]

1. What does it mean to be IN/EN Christ?

The Church is the Body of Christ. As Jesus said, the Father is in Me and I am in the Father, so shall be those who believe in Him. Once you are drawn by our heavenly Father through Christ, the WORD (which is being called), then you answer the call (here while you are living on earth), this is the time when God enlightens you through the WORD (and FAITH comes by the WORD), as you examine the Word, His Light shines in the darkness and it begins to change your mind and transform you ("be renewed in the spirit of the mind..."), day after day. God orchestrates all the events and people that come into your life to bring you to the moment when you BELIEVE in HIM. It's referred to as a Divine appointment. When you believe the gospel: That Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures, then you are baptized by the Holy Spirit and He takes up residence in you.
That is being "in Christ". And that occurs only when you are alive. We are given ample opportunities during are life, invitations, yet many reject, rebel against God and go their own ways.

2. What is the scope of the heavens, the earth & the underworld?

The first heavens and earth will be destroyed in a fervent heat (this is the final judgment when all unbelievers in Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire along with death and destroyed). That is the scope of the underworld, it is temporal and will be destroyed with the first earth. Then, "Behold, I create a New Heaven and Earth", the scope of which is eternal (see Rev. 21 & 22)

4. What is the scope of Rev. 5 in reference to all beings in all dimensions of our God?

Chapter 5 has to do the vision John had a scroll that no one could open (this would be before the death and resurrection), because it says no one in heaven or on earth could open it (vs. 3). Then in verse 5, Jesus shows up (post resurrection) to open up the scroll. He had just been slain. Then there is praise ("You are worthy", etc. ) and worship. So, you must be referring to vs. 13:

"And EVERY creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Remember the book of Revelation is reveal the actions of Christ past, present and future. It is NOT CHRONOLOGICAL. It can't be read in a linear way, chapter by chapter, one event after another. It goes back and forth, giving us multiple dimensions of events. It shows us different vantage points like a transparent sphere of events. You have to rotate a sphere to see the whole. So as I pointed out, in the beginning of chapter 5, we see the past, verses 1-4 occur before the death and resurrection. Then Jesus shows up slain in verse five, (also in John's past), but then we are ushered to a future time as if the Great Tribulation is over, a different vantage point.
You must understand the Heaven is extra-dimensional and since God's sees the end from the beginning, THAT REALM IS NOT CONFINED TO TIME, which is a physical dimension. It's hard for us to grasp, but the vision of all angels and every creature praising and worshipping Him is AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Also, in heaven the only praising and worshipping are from believers. Those are the only voices heard as if none other exists, so John sees it as every creature, since those who have been judged, have been destroyed. Time is an earthly dimension and so Judgment in heaven, in a sense, has already happened. How else could John see things beyond the present as if they had already happened, thousands of years later?
That my friend is a different scope to grasp.

 

[FineLinen]

That is being "in Christ". And that occurs only when you are alive. We are given ample opportunities during are life, invitations, yet many reject, rebel against God and go their own ways.

Dear Ronald: Being in/en the Lord Jesus Christ for the malista of His love and grace, begins in the here and now. It is one of unlimited dimensions of salvation in the present progressive aspect reaching to being saved to the uttermost. It is NOT an opportunity we take with our grubby little choice of deciding to follow Jesus. "You did not choose Me, I chose you" is the foundation for every disciple of the Master, every last one!

The vast majority of this realm, have never heard His voice, never seen Him. But Ronald, make zero mistake, every dimension of the heavens and earth and underworld will ultimately declare in worship and praise YOU ARE LORD! Yes Ronald, every last one in union with the Name of all names in chords of worship IN/EN the Master of Reconciliation.

Source, Guide, and Goal of the ta panta

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: The purpose which Abba cherishes is wholly within Himself. That purpose begins in Him and ends in Him.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

 

[Ronald]

It is one of unlimited dimensions of salvation in the present progressive aspect reaching to being saved to the uttermost. It is NOT an opportunity we take with our grubby little choice of deciding to follow Jesus. "You did not choose Me, I chose you" is the foundation for every disciple of the Master, every last one!

God chose us _ first! "Predestined according to His good will". (Eph 1:5); "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood." 1 Pet. 1:2
Chosen to be transformed during our lives. Every aspect of 1 Pet. 1:2 happens on earth during our lifetime.
Sanctification occurs on earth.
Obedience - occurs while we live and breath.
Washed by His blood -- happens sometime during our lives.
He gave us a will to choose and according to His foreknowledge, He knows who will receive Him and who will reject Him. To be fair, He draws all men to Himself, but not all are willing and so after a certain point, God let's them go, He gives them over to a depraved mind. (Romans 1:28)
These reprobate are not the chosen ones,
they are not His sheep that hear His voice,
they are not sanctified,
they are not obedient
nor are they sprinkled by His blood!
They are in fact lost forever and are ALREADY JUDGED.

The vast majority of this realm, have never heard His voice, never seen Him. But Robert, make zero mistake, every dimension of the heavens and earth and underworld will ultimately declare in worship and praise YOU ARE LORD! Yes Robert, every last one in union with the Name of all names in chords of worship IN/EN the Master of Reconciliation.

It's Ronald btw, and all Christians who have been born again have heard His voice, His calling! This is an inward and outward calling - not necessarily audible, however the outward calling could be through a Pastor giving a sermon or an evangelist witnessing to you . But we commune with God, the Holy Spirit confirms our relationship, guides us and answers our prayers. His Word echoes in our hearts so as we hear it in a sermon or read it, it calls to us and draws us in.

 

[Ronald]

FineLinen, I've noticed you are getting up in your age. Have you lost some loved ones in the past who did not know Jesus and therefore rejected them? It may hurt to think they are lost and so you are hopeful that all will be saved. But when you arrive and find they aren't there, what then? You will be very upset and confounded. Why do you think Jesus will wipe every tear from our eyes? These tears are for the lost that did not make it. I would imagine they will be stricken from our memory, for how could we live in joy for eternity with the knowledge that certain people did not make it?
You are getting close ... better prepare yourself.

 

[FineLinen]

God chose us _ first! "Predestined according to His good will". (Eph 1:5); "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood." 1 Pet. 1:2

Dear Ronald: Yup! The entire working is from Him, through Him, for Him! His good will as the Saviour of all mankind begins with the malista (His especially) and reaches to the lowest of the low.

You attempt to place limited on the Sovereign One. His intention, His thelo, is not limited in any degree!

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

 

[FineLinen]

FineLinen, I've noticed you are getting up in your age. Have you lost some loved ones in the past who did not know Jesus and therefore rejected them? It may hurt to think they are lost and so you are hopeful that all will be saved. But when you arrive and find they aren't there, what then? You will be very upset and confounded. Why do you think Jesus will wipe every tear from our eyes? These tears are for the lost that did not make it. I would imagine they will be stricken from our memory, for how could we live in joy for eternity with the knowledge that certain people did not make it?
You are getting close ... better prepare yourself.

Dear Ronald: My friend I already have nearly all toes on the other side. The entire walk with Him for over 60 years has encompassed glorious realms of becoming. I rest in total assurance that His will prevails in all things!

Your word for today= eleutheroo

The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free...

 

[FineLinen]

The Nature of Love

In the way of laying a foundation for understanding the relationship between God's gift and His grace, I think we have to consider the relationship between those attributes of God that are particularly highlighted in scripture. It could be said that all the characteristics that are properly ascribed to the Divine Nature find their center in the truth that God is love, so that when God is described also, for instance, as light, spirit and consuming fire, such descriptions essentially explain the meaning and nature of divine love.

That God is light, speaks to us of the fact that it is the nature of love to enlighten, to GIVE understanding. God's love is self-revelatory. It shines out of its essence and needs nothing outside of itself to make itself known. That God is spirit confronts us with the truth, that in spite of the propensity of divine love to subject itself to all that is adversarial to its existence, love is still, underneath all that hostility, universally and constitutionally pervasive. It is the spirit that constitutes all being, all existence. It's what "makes the world go around," from within, and is what gives all things their cohesiveness.

That God is a consuming fire encourages us to trust that the inner love-spirit essence of all things, from the inside out, will cleanse itself from all that seeks to defile it. The divine nature of love can be afflicted by such defilement but it can never in its essence be defiled. On this foundation rests our salvation.

So it is with the gift of God, and the graciousness of God.

As it is true that when we speak of God as spirit, light, and consuming fire, we are essentially explaining the nature of love — those other attributes do not stand alongside love, they explain love as they are the unfolding of love's nature, so when we speak of the grace of God, we are, really redundantly, explaining the nature of His gift; that it is, in fact, free. We are emphasizing the obvious, that God's gift cannot be earned. It is, as all gifts should be, freely given. It is what it is — His gift. The grace of God is, to my understanding, simply God's givingness.

God's gift and God's grace do not stand alongside one another. As Jesus said of His relationship with the Father, "I and the Father are One," so also, God's gift (Christ) and His grace (His givingness) are one. He is graciously giving. He gifts us out from His nature of givingness. Finally understood, God only has one gift for mankind, and that is the gift of His Son.

In Him are all the riches of the glory of God's grace. We need to see the obvious, that Paul's expression, "the glory of His grace" simply means, His grace's glory. God is gloriously gracious, and we see grace's glory in the face of Jesus Christ. In Him we see summed up the givingness of God, and NO decision on the part of man can frustrate the givingness of God. He WILL give Himself, in His Son, to all creation until all creation is full of His glory, so that all creation will come to realize its true inner constitution. This is the essence of the Kingdom of God. -John Gavazzoni-

 

[Der Alte]

And here I wait for just one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking unequivocally states that all mankind will be saved, even those who are unrepentant when they die.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: My friend I already have nearly all toes on the other side. The entire walk with Him for over 60 years has encompassed glorious realms of becoming. I rest in total assurance that His will prevails in all things!

Your word for today= eleutheroo

The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free...

Dear Ronald: My friend I will not allow your youth and inexperience to mar what has the potential to be an enhancing experience. Start this new year with the vibrating tongs of Heaven before you and be tuned. The results are always spectacular!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Ronald, post: 73553437, member: 78965"]FineLinen, I've noticed you are getting up in your age. Have you lost some loved ones in the past who did not know Jesus and therefore rejected them? It may hurt to think they are lost and so you are hopeful that all will be saved. But when you arrive and find they aren't there, what then? You will be very upset and confounded. Why do you think Jesus will wipe every tear from our eyes? These tears are for the lost that did not make it. I would imagine they will be stricken from our memory, for how could we live in joy for eternity with the knowledge that certain people did not make it?
You are getting close ... better prepare yourself.[/QUOTE
==============================================
Good eye! Truth and Light are yours today, shining in your post, in line with Scripture.

I didn't think about if there is a reference in Scripture, concerning when someone has gone one way for several decades, how hard it is to turn , to change directions? Is it more hard because of "love of lost ones" who did not make it ? Or peer pressure ? Or 'support' (human support ) ?

 

[FineLinen]

Take 18

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25:46).

This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

“Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.” - J.B. Phillips-

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: Perhaps you would like to join the discussion?

 

[StrivingFollower]

If God can do anything what is the moral purpose for allowing the people to suffer eternally? Beyond anything it would be a waste of energy to me. A sadist observer would get bored and maybe repent watching that suffering for enough years. Actually if God was to spend that amount of time on torture I'd imagine he would save everyone. Because if pain can teach us good morals, boy, those guys would be ready to jump in a fire for God..

 

[FineLinen]

If God can do anything what is the moral purpose for allowing the people to suffer eternally? Beyond anything it would be a waste of energy to me. A sadist observer would get bored and maybe repent watching that suffering for enough years. Actually if God was to spend that amount of time on torture I'd imagine he would save everyone. Because if pain can teach us good morals, boy, those guys would be ready to jump in a fire for God..

As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)

As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)

Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?

If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?

Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<SF>If God can do anything what is the moral purpose for allowing the people to suffer eternally? Beyond anything it would be a waste of energy to me. A sadist observer would get bored and maybe repent watching that suffering for enough years. Actually if God was to spend that amount of time on torture I'd imagine he would save everyone. Because if pain can teach us good morals, boy, those guys would be ready to jump in a fire for God..<SF>

end

"Eternal punishment" [Matt 25:46] is not about repenting. That can only be done in this life. Unfortunately what you consider "the moral purpose,""waste of energy,""sadist observer,""torture,""pain...teaching" etc. is not in scripture. God, not man, determines what the punishment for sin is.
.....God can save everyone. In US prisons there is a 67% recidivism rate. Out of a 1000 people released from prison, on average, more than 670 will return. Most blame everyone but themselves for being in prison judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. And some even try to harm those they blame. After a sinner has been punished for some period of time, by God, will they be filled with warm fuzzies for God?

 

[Ronald]

Dear Ronald: Yup! The entire working is from Him, through Him, for Him! His good will as the Saviour of all mankind begins with the malista (His especially) and reaches to the lowest of the low.

You attempt to place limited on the Sovereign One. His intention, His thelo, is not limited in any degree!

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

Again you ignore Jesus' requirement and condition for salvation - to believe in Him. It is FAITH and faith that perseveres through the trials that saves us. You are overriding Jesus requirement for the free gift of salvation, eternal life, that one must believe in Him. And that sir is a travesty. You are in essence stating that man does not need to have faith now, he can live as he chooses, die and then suffer a little wrath in Hades, get thrown into the lake of fire (which to you is some kind of mercy cleansing) and then enter that way - regardless of the life they led, religion they believed, or sins. You distort the gospel message, which is that we must believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures to receive LIFE.
You would misinterpret this verse or just disregard it along with dozens of others that we are saved by grace through faith: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."Matt. 7:13, 14
I gave you dozens of scriptures, you ignore them as if they were all empty threats. That Hades and Hell do not mean destruction but just another final purification for those who just rebelled against, rejected and ultimately blasphemed God. You would diminish God's wrath in His final judgment to grace that somehow overrides the requirements the Jesus plainly gave: to have faith in Him, obedience and be sanctified during our lives. You distort death, which is a spiritual separation of God and twist it into just a temporary separation that has the LIGHT on the other side. This is dangerous to spread these kind of lies. For they are traps, delusional deceptions that can detour many into believing they can live the way they want and ultimately will get to heaven no matter how much the sin.
You just don't get it. It' like talking to a wall. Actually, I would bet that you are a liberal Democrat - that would explain it.

 

[FineLinen]

"Again you ignore Jesus' requirement and condition for salvation - to believe in Him."

Dear Ronald: Let me be as clear as possible with you, my young friend. The Master of Reconciliation, the Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father! For the malista, the process begins the moment He grasps us for Himself. For the masses who have never known that powerful grasp it extends to the ages to come when every last knee bows, every last tongue confesses YOU ARE LORD!

Yes Ronald this worship is IN the Name of all names & extends to every dimension of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld!

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."