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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Linking to Amazon and other sites which sell books don't prove nothing about nothing.
    Even if one of these guys stated a different interpretation of the word "κολάζω/kolas
    ō that would not refute or disprove BDAG, which I quoted above. What is necessary is for 1 or more accredited Greek scholars to grammatically and conclusively show that kolasō does not and cannot mean punishment in the NT.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​


     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    KOLASIS can refer to a punishment for the good & betterment of the one being punished:

    According to this alleged quote of Trench κόλασις, as opposed to τιμωρία, has "more the notion of punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender (see Philo, Leg, ad Cai. I; Josephus, Antt. ii. 6. 8); it is ‘castigatio,’ and naturally has for the most part a milder use than τιμωρία. Thus Plato (Protag. 323 e) joins κολάσεις and νουθετήσεις together: and the whole passage to the end of the chapter is eminently instructive as to the distinction between the words: οὐδεὶς κολάζει τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας ὅτι ἠδίκησεν, ὅστις μὴ ὥσπερ θηρίον ἀλογίστως τιμωρεῖται, ... ἀλλὰ τοῦ μέλλοντος χάριν ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἀδικήσῃ; the same change in the words which he employs, occurring again twice or thrice in the sentence; with all which may be compared what Clement of Alexandria has said, Strom. iv. 24; and again vii. 16, where he defines κολάσεις as μερικαὶ παιδεῖαι, and τιμωρία as κακοῦ ἀνταπόδοσις. And this is Aristotle’s distinction (Rhet. i. 10): διαφέρει δὲ τιμωρία καὶ κόλασις· ἡ μὲν γὰρ κόλασις τοῦ πάσχοντος ἕνεκά ἐστιν· ἡ δὲ τιμωρία, τοῦ ποιοῦντος, ἵνα ἀποπληρωθῇ: cf. Ethic. Nic. iv. 5: τιμωρία παύει τῆς ὀργῆς, ἠδονῆν ἀντὶ τῆς λύπης ἐμποιοῦσα. It is to these and similar definitions that Aulus Gellius refers when he says (Noct. Att. vi. 14): ‘Puniendis peccatis tres esse debere causas existimatum est. Una est quae νουθεσία, vel, κόλασις, vel παραίνεσις dicitur; *** poena adhibetur castigandi atque emendandi gratiâ; ut is qui fortuito deliquit, attentior fiat, correctiorque. Altera est quam ii, qui vocabula ista curiosius diviserunt, τιμωρίαν appellant. Ea causa animadvertendi est, *** dignitas auctoritasque ejus, in quem est peccatum, tuenda est, ne praetermissa animadversio contemtum ejus pariat, et honorem levet: idcircoque id ei vocabulum a conservatione honoris factum putant.’ There is a profound commentary on these words in Göschel’s Zerstreute Blätter, part 2, p. 343–360; compare too an instructive note in Wyttenbach’s Animadd. in Plutarch. vol. xii. p. 776." Trench's New Testament Synonyms :: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.

    So in favor of κόλασις (or κολάζω) being corrective Trench lists quotes from Plato, Aristotle, Philo, Josephus, Aulus Gellius & Clement of Alexandria. To those we could add early church universalists such as Oregon, Gregory Nyssa & many others. Moulton & Milligan continue to add to that list as follows:

    "The meaning ";cut short,"; which the presumable connexion with κόλος and κολούω would suggest, seems to be the original sense of the word. In the Paris Thesaurus we find quotations for the meaning ";prune"; (κόλασις τῶν δένδρων), and a number of late passages where the verb denotes ";correcting,"; ";cutting down"; a superfluity. Thus Galen ad Galatians 1:1-24 τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία τῶν ἐναντίων ἰάματά ἐστι, κολάζοντα μὲν τὸ ὑπερβάλλον. Of course this may be a derived sense, like that of castigo and of our ";correct,"; but in any case it is clearly a familiar sense during the NT period, and we cannot leave it out of consideration when we examine this very important word." Strong's #2849 - κολάζω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

    In addition to those, under the section on κολάζω in TDNT, J. Schneider notes regarding "inscr. given by Steinleitner from Phrygian and Lydian monuments of the imperial period" that in "these inscriptions the sins punished by deity are those against the deity itself, e.g. violations of the sacred cultic laws. The deity smites the offender with sickness and infirmity, or even punishes himself and his family with death. The sinner can win back the grace of the deity only by open confession of his guilt. In this way alone can he be liberated from sickness and misfortune."

    TDNT adds regarding Philo's view of the "legislative power of God" that this "power divides into two branches, the one for the rewarding of the good and the other for the punishment of sinners. Philo's view of God includes the insight that in God mercy is older than punishment (Deus Imm.,76) and that God would rather forgive than punish (Spec.Leg., II,196...). Punishment is for those who are not amenable to reason (Agric.,40). Thus punishment may seem to be the greatest evil, but it is to be regarded as the greatest blessing for fools, loc. cit. This is a Stoic view" ("Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", TDNT, ed. G. Kittel, Vol.3, p.815).

    The "New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis" (NIDNTTE, ed. Moises Silva, 2014, Vol. II, p.716-718) concurs with TDNT's remarks above.

    NIDTTE also refers to the 5 NT occurrences of the "derived vb. κολαφίζω" (kolaphizo, Strongs # 2852), "to strike (with the fist), fig. torment". It is used twice of "the Jewish leaders who struck Jesus during his trial before the Sanhedrin (Matt 26:67 = Mark 14:65)." (NIDTTE, p.718).

    "Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him," (Mt.26:67; NASB).

    There are no indications of an intent to correct Jesus via such actions by these evil human beings. Rather it seems vindictive or sadistic. Likewise with the occurrences of kolaphizo at 1 Pet.2:20 & 1 Cor.4:11, does the "buffeting" or ""to strike (with the fist), fig. torment" have no hint of correction.

    In all 4 cases of kolaphizo mentioned so far, they all are at the hands of men & do not indicate a corrective or beneficial purpose to those receiving such "torments". However, in the 5th occurrence of this word in the New Testament, that changes.

    In 2 Cor.12:7 is the only one of the 5 that refer to a Divinely given kolaphizo (compare Mt.25:46). In this context the Lord gives Paul a thorn in the flesh to "torment" or "buffet" [κολαφίζῃ] him, not as a sadistic or vindictive retribution with no thought of benefit to Paul, but rather for Paul's own good:

    "7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

    In Matthew 25:46, like 2 Cor.12:7, is another New Testament instance of Divinely given sufferings, usually translated "punishment" (κόλασιν) (v.46) of "fire" (v.41). Shall it not also be, as the Divinely given sufferings of 2 Cor.12:7, for the good of the recipients?

    Clearly the words under consideration are not always used of correction. So in order to determine whether or not their usage in eschatological and/or postmortem passages like Matthew 25:46 & 2 Peter 2:9 is corrective, one must consider the contexts. In that light, therefore, it seems questionable what use there would be in an examination of all of the many ancient Greek occurrences of the words. Will they inform us of the view of the New Testament God of love in regard to how He interprets them in an eschatological context? Or do extrabiblical usages, such as you've cited above, often come under the classification of false gods, fables & myths which are to be rejected, as in:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Do we find out what the real - good - God thinks on a subject by studying what the - evil - false gods think about it? Or how - evil - revengeful, bitter men with sadistic motivations use the words in question? They will punish from their own - evil - motives, whereas the - good - God, Love Omnipotent, always does so from the motive of the betterment of His created beings.

    In support of that there is much to be brought forth from the inspired Scriptures & nothing in opposition to it. There are examples where His wrath, destruction, wounding, punishment, anger and torments are intended for the good of those who receive such. And no examples to the contrary.

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Matthew 25:46: “And these shall be coming away into chastening(kolasin) eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (CLV)...1 John 4:18: “for fear has chastening(kolasin).” (CLV)

    The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. Luke 12:47-48a
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Clem>KOLASIS can refer to a punishment for the good & betterment of the one being punished:
    ...
    In 2 Cor.12:7 is the only one of the 5 that refer to a Divinely given kolaphizo (compare Mt.25:46). In this context the Lord gives Paul a thorn in the flesh to "torment" or "buffet" [κολαφίζῃ] him, not as a sadistic or vindictive retribution with no thought of benefit to Paul, but rather for Paul's own good:
    "7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure....
    In Matthew 25:46, like 2 Cor.12:7, is another New Testament instance of Divinely given sufferings, usually translated "punishment" (κόλασιν) (v.46) of "fire" (v.41). Shall it not also be, as the Divinely given sufferings of 2 Cor.12:7, for the good of the recipients?...<end>
    Smoke and mirrors. Hocus-pocus. Since the word κολαφίζῃ/kolafizé 1 Cor 15:7 is similar in appearance to the word in Matt 25;46 κολάζω/kolazō let's just assume they mean the same thing. "We dōn need no steenking lexicons."
    .....Here is the definition of κολαφίζῃ/kolafizé from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly acclaimed lexicons available.
    κολαφίζω 1 aor. ἐκολάφισα (non-Attic, vernacular word fr. κόλαφις; s. Lobeck, Phryn. 175 [cp. Terence, Adelphi. 245 colaphis tuber est totum caput=(my) head is lumpy from (his) blows]; Mlt-H. 364; 407. Found almost exclusively in Christian lit.; also in Paus. Attic. κ, 38; a Gr-Rom. letter: Sb 6263, 23 [Rom. times]; TestJos 7:5 v.l.—Hesychius: κολαφιζόμενος· ῥαπιζόμενος; Etym. Mag. 525, 4)
    ① to strike sharply, esp. with the hand, strike with the fist, beat, cuff τινά someone. Lit. Mt 26:67; Mk 14:65 (KSchmidt, MGoguel Festschr. ’50, 218–27); MPol 2:4 (v.l.). Of mistreatment in general: we are roughly treated 1 Cor 4:11. εἰ κολαφιζόμενοι ὑπομενεῖτε if you endure being beaten 1 Pt 2:20 (κολαζόμενοι v.l.).
    ② to cause physical impairment, torment, fig. extension of 1, of painful attacks of an illness, described as a physical beating by a messenger of Satan 2 Cor 12:7. The data for a scientific diagnosis are few, and it is not surprising that a variety of views, characterized by much guesswork, have been held:
    ⓐ epilepsy: MKrenkel, Beiträge 1890, 47ff; Schmiedel and Bousset ad loc.; WWrede, Paulus2 1907, 17; HFischer (physician), D. Krankheit d. Ap. Pls. 1911; s. also WWeber (psychiatrist), TLZ 37, 1912, 623; FConybeare in WBundy, The Psychic Health of Jesus 1922, 226f; ASchweitzer, D. Mystik des Ap. Pls. 1930, 152; JKlausner, From Jesus to Paul ’43, 325–30.
    ⓑ hysteria: ELombard, Les extases et les souffrances de l’apôtre Paul: RTP 36, 1903, 450–500; Windisch ad loc.; FFenner, D. Krankheit im NT 1930, 30–40.
    ⓒ periodic depression, s. KBonhoeffer (physician) in Ltzm., Hdb. ad loc.
    ⓓ headaches, severe eye-trouble: Seeligmüller (physician), War Paulus Epileptiker? 1910; cp. WWeber, TLZ 36, 1911, 235; Uhle-Wettler, Evang. Kirchenztg. 87, 1913, 130ff; 145ff.
    ⓔ malaria: Ramsay, Church2 63ff; Sickenberger, comm. ad loc.
    ⓕ leprosy: EPreuschen, ZNW 2, 1901, 193f; REisler, Ιησους βασιλευς II 1930, 426ff; 794.
    ⓖ an impediment in speech (stammering): WClarke, ET 39, 1928, 458–60. S. also on σκόλοψ.—On interpretations (formerly favored by many) in the direction of inward temptations, brought about by opponents, or pangs of conscience, or distressed states of mind, s. GHeinrici in KEK8 1900 ad loc.; PMenoud: JdeZwaan Festschr. ’53 thinks of the anxieties of a missionary’s life.—B. 553 s.v. κόλαφος. DELG s.v. κόλαφος. M-M. TW.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is all I saw when I clicked to this page.

    Smoke and mirrors. Hocus-pocus.

    A forum here, a forum there..... news on every station, in every country.... everywhere..

    few find truth... the narrow way to LIFE !
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I tried it on "firefox" and "Google Chrome" I accessed the entire post both times.
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    hahaha thank you ! :)

    What I meant was when I clicked on the page, all that I saw was that short phrase, and
    went directly to quote and reply as I did.

    The rest of the post may be necessary and true for someone reading,
    and I might read it ,
    but wasn't replying to the overall post - just what I "saw" so briefly. :)


    You know, the question/ topic/ subject / titles / ops of most threads are smoke and mirrors, or the results of smoke and mirrors , in all society and many religious groups.... no reality to stand on, just quicksand for the world ...
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    LOL while trying to correct it I did see a blank space and jumped through a few hoops trying to "correct" it. Left click and move cursor across the line below.
    I I use 5 white dots to indent the first line of paragraphs.That's what I thought it was.
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take 16

    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

    Why??

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25).

    This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    This should be so easy for you!

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear F.L.: perhaps the proponents of damnation need an easier question?

    Why does damnation begin at the House of God?
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <FL>Take 16
    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.
    Why??
    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25).
    This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.
    This should be so easy for you!
    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.
    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=<end>

    Ignatius of Antioch
    "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
    Second Clement
    "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
    • (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
    "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
    Justin Martyr
    "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
    • (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
    "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
    "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
    The Martyrdom of Polycarp
    "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
    • (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
    Mathetes"
    When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
    Athenagoras
    "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
    Theophilus of Antioch
    "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
    Irenaeus
    "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
    "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
    Tertullian
    "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
    • (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
    "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
    Hippolytus
    "Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
    Minucius Felix
    "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
    Cyprian of Carthage
    "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
    Lactantius
    "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
    Cyril of Jerusalem
    "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).


     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <FL>Take 16
    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.
    Why??
    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25).
    This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.
    This should be so easy for you!
    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.
    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=
    <end>
    In the following twenty three [23] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …

    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”


    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
    [18]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [19]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [20]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [23]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  12. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    You seem to want support a belief system based on one verse. No one scripture does that. Is this one scripture the foundation for eternal life as well? No, the entire Bible teaches us the those who have faith in Jesus will be saved. This is the motivation behind the gospel, to tell them of the good news. That salvation is available, that we cannot save ourselves but Jesus offers this.
    You seriously need to do a study on Hades, He'll, Judgment day ... you are missing the part that few find the narrow gate. Many are lost , which is why the hundreds of exhortations are given to warn people. God will destroy the earth along with the ungodly. To teach otherwise is a deception and dangerous. Thankfully only a minute group believes this nonsense.
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: Again in French, au contraire.

    That one single verse for "everlasting punishment", the foundation for churchianity declares what?? What dear Ronald are the 5 qualifications for #1 "everlasting punishment" & #2 "everlasting life"?? What are they dear Ronald??

    I have more questions awaiting your answer, Ronald, from the context of this one cornerstone parable of the Master, but will wait patiently for your hesitant response.

    From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..

    Welcome to ta panta!

    Not panta standing alone, but "ta" preceding it!
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: this "nonsense" is clearly articulated in the following>>>

    "It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose or the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

    I love the "nonsense" of what our Father "cherishes."

    Further: can you tell all of us what we are commanded to teach in St. Paul's letter to Timothy regarding the malista of this "nonsense"??

    "Command this & teach this"

    What Ronald are we to commanded to teach??
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    The one basic understanding of the entire Bible ( not just one verse), is that the wages if sin is death. From Genesis, God commanded Adam, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that eat eat of it you shall surly die." Gen. 2:16, 17
    Sin and death immediately curses the earth, the animals and Adam and Even and the sin passed down through history to mankind.
    It was physical and spiritual death. All diseases, viruses, bacteria that cause illness began on that day. The distortion of everything good from a single cell to I would go as far as the outer Universe was corrupted. A perfect creation became imperfect. God knew this would happen and gave us a solution, He would send His Son, our Lord and Savior, the Messiah.
    "The wages if sin is death." That is not just physical, it is spiritual death, a separation from God. We are born separated from God. Jesus is the only path of reconciliation.
    Since man cannot save himself by fulfilling the Law, Jesus did it for us BUT one would have to come to the the Lord, ask for forgiveness, believe and put their faith in Him. We have this physical life to come to that enlightenment and be reconciled to God through Christ. Once we die, our state is FIXED. The gospel is spread, it good news - that there is a solution, that we don't have to suffer the wages if sin, which is the bad news.

    Evidently, with all sincerity, Universalism makes this requirement of faith null and void. It nullifies death as a final judgment. It nullifies the bad news.
    You are saying faith is not necessary, a belief in Jesus is not necessary, .and that everyone, no matter how corrupt or how far from Christ will be saved. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the bad news is real, it is not an empty threat. If one does not believe in Christ, then the wrath of God abides in them.
    The Holy Spirit is not spreading the gospel on Hades. Dead souls are not being baptized by the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. WESTOZZIE

    WESTOZZIE Active Member Supporter

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    The more I am separated from Nicene Christianity with it's dark dark theology the more I find questions like yours totally hideous and not at all from my heavenly Father. I grieve for my brethren who delight in the destruction of the wicked. Father is over all, through all and in all....In Him we all live move and have our being.....and all things including all people come from God, live in God and are returning to God.
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: My friend I will be happy to discuss with you all aspects of thanantos after we clear the foundational passage of St. Matthew 25. Further we will examine olethron aionian.

    Why is is so difficult to declare what the Master declares in the full context of St. Matthew 25? WHY?
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: My friend you are mired in a ditch that declares death the final outcome as victor. The One who has come to eradicate the effects of Adam1 fails to make these ones "made sinners" by no choice of their own "righteous" by zero choice of their own!

    Yup! The Last Adam nullifies, in fact obliterates, by His "all the more" presentation, the same polus "made sinners" into gasp, "made righteous."
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ozzie: We my friend are sitting beholding the same glorious message of Reconciliation of vibrant harmonies of "all the more"!

    May His exceedingly wonderful Presence grab all of us (including Ronald) into Himself as the Last Adam!

     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <WO>The more I am separated from Nicene Christianity with it's dark dark theology the more I find questions like yours totally hideous and not at all from my heavenly Father. I grieve for my brethren who delight in the destruction of the wicked. Father is over all, through all and in all....In Him we all live move and have our being.....and all things including all people come from God, live in God and are returning to God.<WO>
    Do you not understand how absurd your argument is? If those who believe in Biblical eternal punishment did actually "delight in the destruction of the wicked" as you claim there would not be any churches preaching repentance, "return to the Lord and He will return to you,"
    If those who believe in Biblical eternal punishment did actually "delight in the destruction of the wicked" as you claim there would be nobody on this forum constantly emphasizing Matthew 25:46 and similar verses.
    If those who believe in Biblical eternal punishment did actually "delight in the destruction of the wicked" as you claim they would be doing just the opposite of what they are doing.
     
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