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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: In French, au contraire! Are you familiar with the radical koine pas?

    The all the more perfect Plan of Father=

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled..."

    alternate plan b=
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  2. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    I’ll try to penetrate the wall one more time.
    Actually I criticize your pretense that these methods are sufficient to reveal any more than the base truths of Scripture. I offered a very simple test by asking you to show me the connection between these methods and one well known type, that of Moses as a type of Christ in Deut 14. I asked you to answer three times. The fact that you failed to answer at all reveals your struggle to engage in truthful discussion.

    This is an absurd and false charge. First, what you call a “gotcha” question is not a crime or unethical, despite your attempt to try to make it sound as though I was somehow misleading you. I asked a direct couple of questions to demonstrate to you and others reading in this thread the inability of literal methodology to discern symbolic truth. This is typical of how you twist meanings as a smokescreen in order to go on the attack and avoid discussion in areas you appear to have little ability to properly debate.

    Second, for at least the third time now, try to listen and understand: the use of Moses in previous questions had nothing to do with discussing Moses as a type of Christ. This type was merely a peripheral element of the question used to show the uselessness of literalist exegesis to reveal symbolic or metaphoric truths of the Bible. The subject was not Moses as a type of Christ, the subject was the superficiality of literalism beyond finding base meaning in a spiritual book. Any accepted type could have been used. Again, you seem to be trying to create a smokescreen of falsehood so you can twist things around and go on the attack. What you term as “gotcha” was merely your own inability to answer the questions honestly. There’s no crime here, you’re just miffed because you have egg on your face from an failure to face the power of prescriptive truth in those questions. That’s on you, my friend, not me.

    You’re just parroting what literalist scholars have fed you. You’ve bought a false bill of goods. This is what happens when you swallow the opinions of other men without thinking for yourself. The bankruptcy of literalism was demonstrated—for what, the fourth time now?—at the beginning of this post, yet you still chant the literalist mantra as though it was actually handed down from God. [Hint: show me where God tells us in Scripture we need to trust the literal interpretation of His word. If you can’t—trust me, you can’t—you should rethink your theology. Its mortar is made of sand and that “mighty” fortress stands in danger of collapse.

    This is the embarrassing stuff. The above is in response to my explanation that you, like most Christians on theology boards, are making the mistake of assigning an unrealistic truth-status to your doctrine. As is very typical, you fail to address the points made and instead hurl more ridiculous accusations. Those capable of responding to legitimate points do so. Those who aren’t throw insults instead.

    Do you understand what a circular argument is? It is circular to take the position that your doctrine and interpretive scheme is identical in most or all respects to actual or absolute truth. Yet again you fail to respond to the points made and smokescreen an accusation in yet another feeble attempt to turn your inadequacies toward me.

    The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, in the article “Certainty”, states, “…One of the primary motivations for allowing kinds of knowledge less than certainty is the widespread sense that skeptical arguments are successful in showing that we rarely or never have beliefs that are certain…but do not succeed in showing that our beliefs are altogether without epistemic worth”

    “…it is difficult to provide an uncontentious analysis of certainty. There are several reasons for this. One is that there are different kinds of certainty, which are easy to conflate. Another is that the full value of certainty is surprisingly hard to capture. A third reason is that there are two dimensions to certainty: a belief can be certain at a moment or over some greater length of time.”

    Doctrinal beliefs, like any others, lack certitude and cannot properly be used as a standard against which other beliefs can be tested. Again, you might consider a study of the topic of truth. And again, rather than mounting a rational argument against the points made, you post this:

    A casual read of my posts will reveal that I have never told you what you claim above. Tell me, which of my “esoteric” beliefs in particular do you suppose I should provide evidence or proof for? Be specific. (How’s that shoe taste…again… DA?)

    A lot of Bible characters don't tell us a lot of things. This is one of your overused meaningless sayings that has nothing to do with intelligent conversation. What people don’t say is not evidence of anything. And it should come as no surprise to anyone that you’ve never spotted the New Testament authors teaching anyone to disregard grammatical-historical interpretation—since it wasn’t developed until the 16th century.

    We're taking the thread off topic. Finis
     
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    We are chosen, called, sanctified, justified, and will be redeemed at Hos return or our death whichever comes first. There is a clear message, a warning throughout the Bible to put your faith in Jesus and receive eternal life. Conversely, those who don't will not. God knows who the reprobate are, He knows the end from the beginning. He predestined us to be saved. Physical death is a doorway to either Heaven or Hades (where one waits for the ultimate and final judgement, the Lake of Fire. Destruction means to put an end to, annihilate. You cannot continually destroy something over and over perpetually. That would change the meaning to an indestructible destruction. The dead in Christ receive not only physical death but spiritual death and death itself will finally be cast into tje lake of fire and be destroyed/ ended. At the time, only Life in Christ will exist.
    As the Rich Man in Hades had no recourse and so shall all who die without Christ. Abraham told him his state was FIXED and separated by a chasm where no one from either side could cross to the other. There was no hope for him, not even a drop of water. And don't try to tell me this was a parable. Jesus did not use names of real people nor did He create an abstract realm to mean something else symbolically.
    Furthermore, those who receive the mark of the Beast prior to the Great Tribulation have secured their destiny as well. There will be no turning back, no chance to change their minds. Once the Last Trumpet (#7) blows, the SEVEN BOWLS OF GOD'S WRATH IN FULL will be poured out on the entire world of unbelievers. Read it, you will see that after this, no one repent, they actually curse God and suffer insanity by warring against Him.
    We have an opportunity to come to Jesus in this life, which is the Gods purpose for those He chose. We are the Elect - not everyone is.
     
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    If you must persist in a plan b for the more perfect Plan, F.L., perhaps we can consider the inferior with a capital F>>>

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were some things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: some things were created by him, and for him: And he is before some things, and by him some things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in some things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should some fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile some things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled..."
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Bar: Trying to penetrate the wall will require the One who raises the dead, opens deaf ears & blind eyes and is the Author of metamorhoo!

     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take 12

    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

    Why??

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    This should be so easy for you!

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <BW>...A lot of Bible characters don't tell us a lot of things. This is one of your overused meaningless sayings that has nothing to do with intelligent conversation. What people don’t say is not evidence of anything. And it should come as no surprise to anyone that you’ve never spotted the New Testament authors teaching anyone to disregard grammatical-historical interpretation—since it wasn’t developed until the 16th century.
    We're taking the thread off topic. Finis
    <end>
    Cop-out. You are the one who took the thread off topic. My post is not an argument from silence. If the "symbolic truths of God" of God are as important as you seem to be arguing then we should see mention of them throughout the Bible. This is especially true for the NT where OT law was introduced to non-Jews who had never heard it.
    .....You say the grammatical-historical interpretation was not developed until the 6th century. I see lots of OT history being quoted in the NT, and the writers translated the Hebrew literally into Greek. But I don't see the NT writers telling their audience to look for the "symbolic truths of God."
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The rich man was in Hades, not the lake of fire. Everyone gets out of Hades according to Revelation 20:11-15. So Hades is not about final destiny.

    There was a chasm "fixed" or "established" or "set" (depending on the bible translation) so that people were not able to cross from one side to another. That is, in their own ability. With God all is possible, so with God's help they could go across.

    Of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Savior is in Hades:

    "If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

    The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

    Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

    "Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths. Does Love Omnipotent enjoy torturing or tormenting or bringing needless pain to people? Is He a sadist? No, He is not. So what the rich man was experiencing, hearing & suffering in Hades must be for his own good, to correct him, to bring him to repentance & salvation.

    When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

    The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so.

    " “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

    " "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

    The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

    In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

    Tom Talbott said:

    "As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

    How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <CL>Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead...<end>
    When correctly translated your proof text 1 Pet 4:6 does not support UR.
    NIV 1 Pet 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
    As for your other proof text, 1 Peter 3:19 neither hell nor the grave are called prison in the NT and prison is never called the grave and hell. In Luk 4:18-19 Jesus announces His earthly ministry. Nothing about going to hell or the grave and preaching to the dead.
    Luke 4:18-19
    (18) "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
    (19) to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
    One of Jesus' ministries was "freedom for the prisoners? The word translated "prisoners" is αἰχμαλωτός which literally means "prisoners of war."
    1 Peter 3:19-20
    (19) After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
    (20) to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
    This passage does not support UR because Jesus was not talking to the dead. The only people who were saved was Noah and his family eight people and they were not dead, they were alive, everybody else who was alive were killed.

     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

    The risen Christ preaches to the dead

    “Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


    "Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-
     
  11. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Paul tells us the OT was written in shadow and that there is a vail over the OT.

    The OT is written in shadow of things to come

    Col. 2:16-17
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath*days:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body*is*of Christ.

    A shadow is caused when a body or object obscures the light. It is not the shadow that is important; but the body that made the shadow. And according to Col.2:16-17 that body is Christ.

    Paul also states in



    2Co.3:12-16
    Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    And not as Moses,*which*put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which*vail*is done away in Christ.
    But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    That a vail is over the OT that is still in effect today when people read the OT and that vail is done away in Christ.

    Christ is the common denominator in both passages.

    This to me is why we are to take every thought captive to Christ. Most see this as cherry picking; however if these scriptures are to be believed all I am doing is looking at the body of the shadow which takes away the vail over the OT.

    Anyway that how I understand the OT and do my best to apply it to Christ.

    Concerning the creation of man I see it this way.

    Gen.1:26-27 says

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    So God created man in his*own*image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    This is a prophesy of what will be in Christ. According to Paul Christ is a many membered body; male and female created He them.

    So the question is how do we become the body of Christ or fulfill this passage?

    Now with the light that the above passage is something that will take place in the future. If you reread the above passage you will see that man was already created; let us make MAN....

    So if man was already created; in what manner was man created?

    Ecc.3:18-20 states

    I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
    For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all*is*vanity.
    All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    That man themselves are beasts no different than any other beast, they all have the same breath and all return to dust. Thus biological man was created an animal.
    And God looking on this animal called man said let us make man in our image and likeness.

    So the scriptures go on to explain the process of how He will do this.


    Gen.2:7
    And the LORD God formed man*of*the dust of the ground (just like all the other animals), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The word breath here comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.

    This woman in travail is giving birth and that birth is the birth of Christ within mankind. This birth of Christ comes in seed form and must be cultivated in order for growth to occur.

    So what does God do after the birth of Christ in man? God makes a garden for him and places him in the garden with two specific trees. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the choice of life or death.

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,*that*I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live Deu.30:19

    In other words once Christ was birthed in humanity we were given a moral choice we could continue to live like the animal we were created or we could cultivate the birth within us and grow spiritually unto full stature in Christ.
     
  12. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    The Bible, Jesus, the Apostles say it is necessary to be saved. Salvation is the word. It's a bit different than damnation!
    "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows" houses and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation."
    Matt. 23:14
    "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Matt.23:33

    According to Jesus, there is no escape!
    "but he who Blasphemes against the Holy spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal damnation." Mark 3:29 (eternal should be translated age-lasting since it reflects a temporal realm)
    "
    and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:29
    Condemnation means just that, it is a spiritual death sentence.
    "
    For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hades and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds);
    then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment and especially to those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority..." 2 Peter 3-10

    We differentiate the difference between our precious salvation and destruction. It is clear in the above passages, if the angels did not get away with their sin, and the ancient world did not, neither will anyone else. These historical judgments were an example for us. It is clear, fallen angels and ungodly people who have died are in Hades awaiting their FINAL JUDGMENT WHEN DEATH AND HADES ARE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND DESTROYED (ANNIHILATED). (SEE REV.20:14)





    The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was put in the Garden. Satan was allowed there as well -- Paradise wasn't perfect since evil temptation was there was it? God knew we would fail the test YET it was necessary for us to know EVIL to appreciate and know what GOOD is. He had a solution, Jesus. But when you think of it, no one would understand mercy, peace, forgiveness, hope, goodness, kindness, patience, faith or love if we did not experience what it was like to live without Good at times.
    His purpose throughout history was to offer salvation through Jesus. What are we saved from if not the forfeit of our souls and damnation. If everyone was saved, there would be no talk of condemnation, destruction, the final judgment which is the end of life physically and spiritually. We are saved from damnation/destruction. One must really distort or ignore hundreds of scriptures to believe that everyone will be saved.
    What is the point of the Gospel message if in the end everyone will get into heaven? The gospel is one sentence: He died for our sins and rose on the third day. But you must believe that IN THIS LIFE. Once you die, your state is fixed!
     
  13. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. Jesus said ye search the scriptures thinking to find life but you will not come to me for that life.

    No one has said that they away with anything, we all reap what we sow, no more, no less. All will be judged via the ministration of death/the law.
     
  14. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Scapegoat



    Two deaths
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Those who are in Hades await JUDGMENT DAY when they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. "Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rev. 20:14
    Do you want to distort the meaning of death too?

    God made that chasm, that was His purpose. Jesus said there is no way to escape! (Matt. 23:33)

    David just implied God is omnipresent - which is why He will someday destroy Hades and Death and all evil and sin. They will no longer be in His presence!

    Oh please, God created everyone. Remember He loved Jacob but hated Esau. Do you think He loved the world of people He destroyed in the Flood. No, destruction and death is not a reflection of someone loving you. Chastising you is. Our parents punish us because they love us. They don't kill us because they love us. Don't try to compare a fallen, selfish, ungodly person to a son of God. Not everyone is a son of God. We are adopted when we are born again. Jesus said, "... UNLESS ONE IS BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." JOHN 3:3 This is a spiritual transformation that occurs when you are alive in this life. You cannot be born again in Hades!

    The story is for us to take serious, the consequences of ungodly lives chasing after the lust of the flesh, selfish endeavors, greed and ultimately forsaking Jesus offer.
    This conversation with the Rich man was for our benefit not his. He was offered nothing and that's how the conversation ended, with him receiving nothing he asked for and no hope for any to come.

    Well, not everyone is evil to the core. The Bible says, even the wicked care for their families in some way. Of course he probably loved his brothers and since he met his fate figured maybe someone could warn his brothers. Again, another lesson. Abraham explains that they had Moses and even if someone (Jesus) were to rise from the dead, they would not believe and abide. The sin nature is in power. Those who are not faithful, God fearing men are SLAVES TO SIN, SLAVES TO SATAN. Unless God draws them and transforms them, they are doomed. It is likely his brothers met the same fate, otherwise Abraham might have said, "Oh two of your brothers will fall as you, but the others saved ..." Nope, he implied they would not believe in the risen Christ.

    Hades will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire at Judgment Day, the end of the age.

    It's not a parable. Parables never mention historical figures and name them. They never mention names of anyone. They do not describe abstract fictitious realms that do not exist either. This place was real. There are many scriptures that describe Hades (Sheol), and a few about the Abyss, the Bottomless Pit as well.
    Sheol has a deeper meaning then the grave or pit. It is the underworld or sometimes referred to as the netherworld. Sheol comes from the root shaol; which means to ask, demand or require. Hades is asking, demanding and requiring souls. it is hungry and unsatisfied. Satan is behind this drawing power that tempts the unsaved soul to come to Daddy. They can store up sin and wrath which pulls them closer to their destiny. God has a drawing power of Grace to pull some to safety (in this life but not after death), but not all are willing.
    Job reflected on this place: Job 10:21, 22; 11:7, 8; 26:5, 6; 38:17
    God describes this place within the earth beneath the volcanoes in this passage:
    "For a fire is kindled in My anger,
    And burns to the lowest part of Sheol,
    And consumes the earth with its yield,
    And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deut.32:22

    Proverbs teaches us to discipline our children to prevent them not from physical death which is not possible but from Sheol:
    "Do not hold back discipline from the child,
    Although you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
    You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol." Proverbs 23:13, 14
    With this lack of discipline in our present day world, is there any wonder why kids are out of control, dishonoring God, parents, lying, stealing, coveting and murdering???
    Here's one from Ezekiel 26:20, 21 describing the finality of judgment against inhabitants of Tyre, who will no longer exist: "then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living. I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more, though you will be sought, you will never be found again,m declares the Lord God."
    Jesus warned of this place: Matt. 16:18
    Also, He said there is no escape the final judgment: "Serpents! Brood of vipers! How may you escape from the judgment of the Gehenna? Matt.23:33 Of course He was referring to Hell (the Lake of Fire)).
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: That is according to your doctrine. The "especially" of His love and grace are not just "getting into heaven" they are entering into the here and now the vast dimensions of His Life. But mark this well: God is the Saviour of all men (not some men or many men), He is the Saviour of all mankind "especially" those who believe/trust in Him.

    Especially= malista.

    Only= monon/ monos
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My dear friend, clear your mind of can’t. -Samuel Johnson-

    “Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

    "Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Malista=

    Most

    Most of all

    Above all

    Superlative of mala

    Mala= very much

    Monon/monos=

    Monos=

    Alone

    Solitary

    Monon=

    Alone

    Exclusively

    “He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins ONLY/ monon/ monos, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.”
     
  19. steve78

    steve78 Newbie

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    I doubt that
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Bible says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). Then God becomes all "in ALL" (v.28).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    Jesus also said it is impossible for men to be saved. Yet with God all is possible. Men are not able to cross the chasm in their own ability, but Love Omnipotent is able to bring them across. God doesn't let those evil doers in Hades cross just because they want to, for then they would all cross over immediately & not learn the lessons they need to learn to become saved. They must meet the usual conditions for salvation, confession, repentance & genuine faith.

    Matt.23:33 says nothing about anyone never being saved:

    Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence of Gehenna?

    Nowhere does any Scripture say God's love expires, or He is unable to save anyone or anyone will never be saved. Quite the contrary.

    He'll also destroy death. So all will have life & be saved.

    "The word hated didn’t have the same meaning to the biblical writer as it does to us. To the biblical writer, you “hated” someone when you chose another person for a position of more favor or honor. For example, in Genesis 29:31, we are told that God saw that Leah was hated by Jacob, so He opened her womb. Yet we have every indication that Jacob was fond of Leah. He loved Rachel more, but he treated Leah with kindness. (Before Jacob died he asked to be buried with Leah.) Luke 14:26 gives another example of the biblical use of the term hated. Jesus said that we should “hate” our parents for His sake. He certainly wasn’t telling us to dislike them or to wish them evil. He only asked that we regard them as less important than Him, which is completely reasonable given who He is." What did Paul Mean When He Wrote that God Loved Jacob and Hated Esau?

    Of course He did & still does. God "so loved the world" (Jn.3:16) which is spoken long after the flood. Do you think Love Omnipotent hated all the children & babies who died in the flood? Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    God loosed Satan on Job & his family, bringing horrific disease, death & destruction. God brought destruction on this man for his own good:

    1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
    1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
    18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


    Man's words & opinion. Not Scripture.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    No one is so evil that Love Omnipotent is helpless, too weak & impotent to save them.

    Some people don't presently believe Scripture or even if they see a miracle. That doesn't prove they will never believe. Thomas was a disciple of Jesus for years, saw many of His miracles, yet refused to believe in His resurrection unless He saw Jesus. Just like many atheists today. One day they will see Him, just like Thomas did. And all of them will eventually believe, repent & be saved.


    The reference is to a "city", not people:

    19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
     
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