Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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FineLinen said:
D.A.: There is more than your mind needing refreshing!
Did someone change the topic of this thread to "Der Alter" when I was not looking? Maybe if we got back on topic someone might not report these personal attacks.
[Rules: flaming and goading]
 
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FineLinen

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Did someone change the topic of this thread to "Der Alter" when I was not looking? Maybe if we got back on topic someone might not report these personal attacks.
[Rules: flaming and goading]

D.A.: We all are impressed with your credentials & indeed we need to get back to the theme of this wonderful link!

Take 11

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?
 
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FineLinen

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We are now at take 11.

Perhaps the harder aspects of this parable of Jesus Christ should be considered first.

1. Why are "virgins" in the context of Matt.25?

2. Why is this not a comparison between pure virgins and harlots or loose women?

3. Why are two clean animals (according to Old Covenant) in the parable i.e. sheep & goats?

4. Why not 1 clean animal and 1 unclean?

5. Why not a sheep (clean) and a pig (unclean)?

WHY?
 
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Sapiens

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The sufferings of those who hate God will last forever. But not because God wants to punish them or because He hates them. God is love.

The problem is that they hate God. Their torments are caused by who they have become and because they set themselves against love.

Humans are not disposable. We were created in the image of God, so we have firstly the dignity of free choice (to love God or to hate Him) and we have a spirit that will continue to exist from the point of our creation. God will not wipe us out. And He will not force us to love Him. What we do with those truths can indeed torment us, but the hell some experience will be by their own choice and of their own making, in a sense. There will be no basis for blaming God.

Where do you get the idea that the human spirit is by nature eternal?

Ever since the fall in Eden, people have died. The only reason mentioned why there can be life after death is because a resurrection will occur.
 
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Sapiens

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Imagine a brutal dictator. He rules for decades without remorse. He dies peacefully in his palace, surrounded by his family and loyal henchmen, having never paid for his crimes. If he simply no longer exists, where's the justice in that? I suppose one might think it would be better if he suffered in hell long enough to pay for his transgressions, then was "deleted" by God, but that would suggest that humans are wiser than God.

Another angle: Why should there be eternal joy in heaven for temporal goodness on earth, but not eternal damnation in hell for temporal evil in earth? No one seems to have a problem with being saved by grace (because we are not saved by works), but many people have a problem with being condemned for willful, unremorseful sin and rejection of God.

Why would the idea of just punishment followed by destruction make humans wiser than God? It is a legitimate reconstruction of biblical teachings. The bible speaks pf punishment, destruction of the unbelievers, and God's justice. A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. Not a tooth or eye for infinite teeths or eyes removed. Moreover, Jesus' dying for our sins as a punishment in our place was death. That was the penalty paid by christ for our sins, not eternal suffering in hell.

Moreover, there isn't eternal joy in heaven because of temporal joy here... There is a place for us in heaven because God is gracious and gives it to us who accept it through believing in his son and repenting. Also, that was the purpose to human life. I doubt eternal suffering in hell was the purpose intended by God for us...
 
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ClementofA

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Daniel 12:2 shows that some will rise -to never be saved...never to be consumed....but to always be in shame - and get abhorred.

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?
 
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ClementofA

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FineLinen

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Where do you get the idea that the human spirit is by nature eternal?

Ever since the fall in Eden, people have died. The only reason mentioned why there can be life after death is because a resurrection will occur.

Dear Sapiens: Only God is eternal.

Man is tri-partate coming out from the eternal God & returning to Him. Out of dust this man was made and back to dust this man returns, the spirit returning to Sender. Dust has been breathed into by the Eternal One and became a living soul. The soul is so closely related to spirit it requires the word of the Lord to separate. Man by nature is not eternal, but joined to the Aidios God, well my friend, we shall see what the Sender has devised.
 
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FineLinen

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Does that long text answer "how is God loving for having these people suffer eternally with no hope of redemption?" and/or "how is it just for God to condemn these people to an eternal and conscious punishment of suffering, since it infinitely exceeds their limited crimes?"?
Dear Sapiens: I repeat only God is eternal. There is no such animal as "eternal hell" nor is there "eternal suffering" or "everlasting suffering"!
 
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FineLinen

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The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A. E. Saxby
 
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Sapiens

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The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A. E. Saxby

So it isn't all that bad to not follow Jesus. No one is ultimately rejected by God. Everyone is reformed. Do you really feel like that's what scriptures are teaching as a whole? Why does God hate sin so much and can't bear those who do it? There is a wall between him and sin and between him and sinners. And where does it say that all people will ultimately enter in his presence?
 
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FineLinen

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So it isn't all that bad to not follow Jesus. No one is ultimately rejected by God. Everyone is reformed. Do you really feel like that's what scriptures are teaching as a whole? Why does God hate sin so much and can't bear those who do it? There is a wall between him and sin and between him and sinners. And where does it say that all people will ultimately enter in his presence?
Dear Sapiens: Our Father despises sin. Sin cannot stand! The all (the ta panta) begins in Him and ends in Him!

The all returns to Him>

Saved>>>reconciled>>>"made righteous"

 
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Where do you get the idea that the human spirit is by nature eternal?

Ever since the fall in Eden, people have died. The only reason mentioned why there can be life after death is because a resurrection will occur.

The body dies because of the fall - death of the physical body happens when the soul separates from the body.

The soul does not die. It exists in an unnatural (for humans) state as a spirit without its body - until the bodies are resurrected.

The soul does not die when the body ceases to function.

Human souls continue on because God willed to create us in this way - the same as the angels. They do not cease to exist either, but are not part of the material realm with bodies such as ours.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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FineLinen said:
Search=endless torment
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CL said:
The 2nd Death
“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.
There is not one single verse in the Bible which says anyone or anything dies a second time.

CL said:
What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.
Zero credible, verifiable, historical or any other evidence for this.
CL said:
Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be
CL said:
4subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A. E. Saxby
Somewhat interesting but zero scripture.
 
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