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Question about an evil spirt from the Lord?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Optimus_P, Mar 8, 2002.

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  1. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    I am confused as to what kind of evil could the Lord have?
    I think that the Lord is 100% pure/perfect; but wouldnt evil be non perfection?

    Im just confused from this verse thats all. It dosent make much sense.
     
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  2. zamar

    zamar Member

    184
    +0
    Well if God were to remove His hand of protection from off of Saul (remember in the OT, the only people who had the Spirit of God on them were Prophets, Priests and Kings) Then any evil spirit would be free to torment Saul.

    All of this was due to Saul's disobiedience.

    Z
     
  3. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    Judges also receaved the hand of God in the OT (thats unimportant here) Its just kinda funny how it used the words "evil spirit from the Lord" meaning possetion or part of. After i was reading more of Samuel In the notes it comments on the evil spirt being a stong emotion that saul had so i could see where the evil spirt is from the Lord as it was an emotion, something God had given us in the first place.
     
  4. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Or it could mean the Lord sent the evil spirit (without reference to the origin or source of the evil spirit).
     
  5. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    "Now the Spirit of the LORD had left Saul, and the LORD sent a tormenting spirit that filled him with depression and fear." I Samuel 16:14 NLT

    Even the evil spirits are ultimately under the control of God. He can reign them in or allow them out. They are His created beings, who although they have freewill, God can force them to do His will. He just doesn't always force them. This time, He opened the door to the evil spirit after withdrawing Himself from Saul.
     
  6. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    could be. kinda makes ya think about it tho dont it.
     
  7. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Here is a little more confusion to deal with:
    Amos 3:6
    6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
    (KJV)

    You have to understand the intent of the word evil. In the case of God sending an evil spirit to accomplish judgment on someone or to bring someone to a humble state, etc. this is the sovereign position that God has and he can use whoever for whatever to perform his ultimate will.

    As for God doing evil or creating evil I will give you one more verse to make you completely confused then hopefuly I will iron this thing out.
    Isa 45:7
    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    (KJV)

    take a look at "Barns note"
    Isaiah 45:7 PP3

    [And create evil] The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.
    (from Barnes' Notes)
    A close look at the term "evil"
    7451 ra` (rah);

    from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):

    KJV-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st), wretchedness, wrong. [Incl. feminine ra` ah; as adjective or noun.].


    We find that evil can mean simply the opposite of peace. A similar troubling term is hate:
    Luke 14:26
    26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    (KJV)

    This is similar to "evil" in the way it is used. We see it is used to mean that a man must put Jesus above his family. Hate is a term here that means to give a lesser state of importance.

    Have I made things clearer or messed this whole thing up. I thought I'd throw all that other stuff in here so it didn't take you by supprise.
     
  8. dependingonhim

    dependingonhim New Member

    42
    +0
    I have not been to the forum for a couple of weeks because it had some discussion that was very discouraging going on.

    This discussion is wonderful!!! You all have dug in the scriptures and it makes me want to do the same thing. I have to go to work now. But I will be back to start participating again.

    This gives me encouragement!! Thank You! :clap:
     
  9. zamar

    zamar Member

    184
    +0
    I'm not so sure about the comment that GOd could force a spirit to do His will....

    Where in scripture does God force anyone to do anything?

    Another question....WHat kind of grasp did the OT writers have concerning evil or the adversary? We really do not find out about the work of the devil until Jesus spoke of him in John 10:10.

    Z
     
  10. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    zamar: with that question the note i listed could be valid then. as the evil spirit was an overwhelming emotion (of jelousy. imho)

    but on the basis of what God could do. His power is limitless so by all means he could do it if he wanted to.
     
  11. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Are you suggesting that the devil and Satan are different? What about in Matthew 4:1-12 when the adversary is identified as devil, tempter, and Satan? What about John 8?

    How do you understand Genesis 3 with regard to Satan/devil?

    1 Chronicles 21:1
    Job 1-2
    Zechariah 3:1-2
     
  12. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    He doesn't force people to do anything, so far as I can tell, but the angels and demons are His servants, and even the evil spirits are capable of doing His will if He chooses. Don't you think that He sometimes allows evil to be a judgement, and sometimes as a test, and sometimes for reasons we don't understand. The Bible says that nothing happens to us that doesn't pass through God's hand first. Even evil.
     
  13. zamar

    zamar Member

    184
    +0
    Optimus P, you are incorrect. God is not limitless in His actions. He has self imposed limits in place. He has limited Himself to working and moving within the framework of His word. I also do not agree that that "spirit" was an emotion. It clearly was a spirit.

    No I do not believe that the devil and satan are 2 separate beings. I understand Gen 3 in regards to the devil, My point is that in the OT, The people of God always refer to evil coming from God. I don't see how that is possible short of God removing His hand of Protection from off of a person. (If it rains and I step out from under an umbrella and get wet, Is it the unbrella's fault?)

    Lambslove, If that were the case, then all who die and go to hell are sent by God. (We are given choices and We live and Die as a result of Our Choices).

    Testy group this morning.

    Z
     
  14. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    testy? naw just full of differnat thoughts heheheh

    to put a limit on God's power is to bring him down to our standards, i havent read where he put limits on himself in the bible.

    zamar your umbrella example makes sense. but again it is just a question to explore other passages with. of stuff that could be confuseing to others.

    but again if i go back to the emotion view. Saul was Gods chosen judge for teh people. now god was no longer w/ him which made him a target for the devil, to use teh fact that God was no longer a staple in Sauls life but used Sauls emotions agenst him. Saul put himself above God by doing that.

    all the things mentioned here are deffiently worth thinking over. I just found it a little confuseing when i read it the first time.
     
  15. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    The Hebrew word for this spirit is defined as something that is troubling, annoying, or harmful. It doesn't necessarily denote "an evil spirit" like a demon. It can mean a situation, or state of mind as well.

    God bless.
     
  16. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    The Hebrew word for this spirit is defined as something that is troubling, annoying, or harmful. It doesn't necessarily denote "an evil spirit" like a demon. It can mean a situation, or state of mind as well.

    God bless.
     
  17. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    >>Lambslove, If that were the case, then all who die and go to hell are sent by God. (We are given choices and We live and Die as a result of Our Choices). <<

    Really? I think it means that everyone who goes to hell goes there out of their own choice! They don't want to be with God, so they choose not to have a relationship with Him in this life. God honors that choice and sends them to hell when they die, so they don't have to have any contact with the One they ignored or hated in life! Sounds like a choice to me!
     
  18. zamar

    zamar Member

    184
    +0
    That is exactly right. It is our choice. But you stated that all things pass through God's hands first. That statement denotes that God chooses who is saved and who isn't.
    My point is that the work is done and it is up to us. Our Choice.

    Nowhere in the word do you find where God forces His will on anyone, either mankind or Angel. We all are given free will and God honors that.

    Op, I'll find the reference to God following His word.

    Z
     
  19. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    when Jesus casts out the evil spirits, was he imposing his will upon them?.....yep.
     
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