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question about abortion

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by cedric1200, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +4,186
    Seeker
    See, Resha, you would first have to understand that - unlike for you, whose ideology leaves only one option - this would be a real question for me. A question with a lot of factors, aspects and criteria.
    In this scenario I would start thinking, weighing up, considering, asking, reconsidering countless relevant aspects - whereas you would be working backwards from your ready made ideological conviction.
    So let´s not pretend our approaches were even comparable.
    And let´s not pretend that age is a relevant factor for you: Correct me if I am wrong, but even if a woman older than you would ask you for advice whether to have an abortion, you´d tell her that it´s wrongwrongwrong to do so.
     
  2. Skaloop

    Skaloop Agnostic atheist, pro-choice anti-abortion

    +825
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    No. But I do have a degree in psychology, if that counts for anything (I don't necessarily think it does). But that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong about what is healing.

    Yes, I have had such experience.

    But that wasn't my question. I was wondering if you yourself have had an abortion or been in a situation where you considered abortion.
     
  3. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    First, I never claimed a linear relationship. Second, I think I've clearly said age is not the only factor. One can attempt an argument like yours about anything if one factor is isolated from the others. So, I consider your attempted argument invalid.

    OK. Am I allowed to ask you about factors that were not part of your argument?

    All good things to consider.

    Sure. You've answered the question. And that's how it was initially posed - as a question. I will requote my initial response to you from post #13, "It's good you would offer some guidance, but "teenage" could mean anything from 13 to 19. Do you really think all ages should be left to make significant life decisions?"

    Given what I said above, why did you assume it was something other than a question? That I was proposing a criteria?

    Just because I have arrived at an answer doesn't mean I never considered the question. Your accusation of how I came to be where I am is inaccurate.

    Where did I ever say they were? Not for a moment would I ever consider our approaches comparable.

    If I was asked, I would give advice. And age would indeed be a factor in how I respond. With a 13-yr-old my first question would be who is her guardian. With an older woman I would first ask if she would be willing to talk to a counselor I know.

    Telling her abortion is wrong would not be my first words. And you can see the evidence of that in my first post in this thread. In post #4 counseling is one of the first things I mention.
     
  4. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    No. Certainly those who have can offer an empathy I can't. But how is your question relevant to what I said?

    I do.

    Then maybe you can walk me through this and explain why. As I understand it, most raped women who become pregnant go through a phase at one time or another where they hate the baby. Is that true? It seems an understandable reaction to me.

    The Legitimate Children of Rape - The New Yorker
     
  5. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +4,186
    Seeker
    You asked, and I gave you my response. So I don´t know why you even ask what you are allowed to (particularly since I am not in the position to forbid you anything, anyway).
    That you don´t like my response and/or disagree with it is different issue.



    So what´s your problem? What do you want from me?
    "Do you really think...?" in response to a post in which that which you asked hasn´t even been the topic.

    Sure. Why would you introduce a, err, criteria if you don´t think it´s a relevant criteria?



    I didn´t say anything about how you came to be where you are. I merely described where you are now. And I didn´t accuse you of anything. I even asked you to correct me if my assumptions were wrong.



    Cool, so we agree that they aren´t. :thumbsup:
    Of course, this puts certain limits to a meaningful exchange of thoughts.



    Am I right in assuming that this "counselor you know" shares your principal rejection of abortion as a viable option?

    I don´t recall saying anything about what your first words would be.
    I was talking about the fact that abortion wouldn´t be an option for you, under any circumstances (and again, please correct me if I am wrong).

    I am not pointing all this out to accuse you of anything. I am pointing it out in order to show that for you there is only one moral option (carrying out the pregnancy) - regardless of age or whatever other factors and criteria.
    While I would have to form an opinion based on countless factors and criteria, some of which have to do with the attitude of my daughter. Whether and what I would advise her and/or whether and which decision I would make myself would be the result of these common considerations.

    That´s exactly why I worded my first post as I did, with the emphases I did. And that´s exactly why I didn´t and don´t consider the exact age to be a particularly significant criterium for the way I would go about things.

    Thus, since the exact age isn´t a viable criterium for you and it isn´t for me (albeit for different reasons) I do not see much point for us to discuss the relevance of the exact age.

    So thanks for trying to help by offering a criterium that isn´t yours but of which you assumed it could be relevant for my consideration.
     
  6. Jade Margery

    Jade Margery Stranger in a strange land

    +282
    Agnostic
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    One of the many reasons rape is traumatizing is because the rapist steals a person's control over their own body.

    Seems to me, the best way to heal that would be to give that person their control back - letting them decide what to do about the resulting pregnancy. Of course I would make sure my daughter had as much information as possible about the procedure and the risks involved, both in abortion and in bringing the pregnancy to term, but I would try not to encourage one or the other. I would then support completely whichever choice SHE made.

    It might be a little harder to maintain neutrality if she asked me, 'Mom, what would you do?' because I would want to answer honestly, but also let her know that she doesn't have to make the same choice I would.

    The only exception MIGHT be if she was younger than thirteen, depending on her physical maturity level. It's awful to even think about those circumstances, but in that case I might encourage her to consider abortion, if only because full pregnancy so early can have long term health effects.
     
  7. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    I get the impression you thought my question was rude. I'm trying to discern if you did indeed think it was rude and for what reason. Was it the way I asked it? Was it because I asked about something you hadn't included in your response? Was it because it was me who asked it?

    I infer from this it was one word that put you out. Sometimes I am also asked a question that at first appears rude. I try to reply to the content of the question and avoid reacting to the way it was phrased. As I said, I try. I'm not always successful.

    And that's just me. As we've agreed, our approaches are very different.

    I wanted to know if you had considered it. We go through this every time we interact. I have to ask a question ten different ways before I find a phrasing you don't consider stupid, offensive, unintelligible, irrelevant, etc. I just consider asking questions to be part of conversation.

    I try, but when I correct something you've said about me that is wrong, you again tell me I'm wrong. It seems I'm so wrong that I don't even know who I am or what you've said about me. Since you know me better than I know myself, I'll leave you to make your comments.

    Yes. Why do you ask? Would this somehow make it wrong for me to recommend that counselor?

    I still disagree. You are making the issue of age all about me and you; what my choice and your choice would be. Yes, for me there is only one option. You would weigh all kinds of factors, but age is not "particularly significant".

    But for me this conversation is not about you and me. It's about the girl. It's about the counseling she needs to overcome the trauma of rape. During the time I'm involved with this girl my view of abortion may never come up. If it does, how I respond would depend in part on her age. I've never tried to say her age would affect my view of abortion. But her age would be one consideration of when, how, and even if I ever share that view with her.
     
  8. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Yes, this is a BIG issue. The article I linked to talks about it.
     
  9. stevevw

    stevevw inquisitive

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    If you followed the thinking that your daughter can make up their own minds and then support them on that I think you are being neglectful. That would mean if she said she wanted to get a big tattoo on her back or take drugs you would have to allow her to make her own decision and then support that. I would think that a young daughter isn't old and wise enough to know all the consequences of a decision like this. There is nothing wrong as a responsible parent to advise your children on what you think is a good and wise way to live. Or to get them to seek advice and support from others so that she can make an informed decision.

    But as a Christian we have a particular belief on abortion so we should be encouraging and advising our children along these lines. This modern aged idea that people have the right to do whatever they want is wrong even if it is their own bodies. Especially if they are young. We have gone to far with this and are allowing some young people to do what they want and this is causing rebellion and some to develop issues beyond their years. I think we miss an opportunity and in some ways neglect our responsibilities to point our kids in the right direction. There are special circumstances that make it harder to deal with these issues but I dont think we should be always looking for the easy way out all the time as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  10. Skaloop

    Skaloop Agnostic atheist, pro-choice anti-abortion

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    I find it interesting that you say we shouldn't allow young women to get tattoos on their back and then go on to say that we should force them to give birth. Having a baby is a far bigger thing than getting a tattoo.
     
  11. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

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    Seeker
    I didn´t think it was rude.






    Yes, I had considered it, and I gave you my opinion.



    That´s because you corrected something I hadn´t said.
    For to point out how I didn´t say what you corrected I don´t need to know you. At all.



    No, it just would confirm what I described as the significant differences:
    - that to you the desired result is already decided, and to me it´s not,
    - that your efforts would be about working towards this already decided result, whilst I would yet have to find out what´s best in this particular case.

    It´s hard for me to give descriptions when you are determined to read judgements into them.



    Yes, I made that out to be the a fundamental difference in our approaches.

    Exactly. That´s why I would prefer to approach things openly (i.e. without having the desired result ready made in my pocket).
    Cool, so that´s what you would do or not do. Thanks for the information.
     
  12. stevevw

    stevevw inquisitive

    +424
    Christian
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    I didn't say neither of what you are stating. You have either assumed this or you are injecting something you have interpreted or thought I was saying. I am using an example of how people can dismiss getting involved in advising others about what they should do because we have no right in telling others what to do with their lives. The right to do this and that can go too far and we become to scared to speak up.

    I was using tattoos and drugs as they are both something to do with how a person treats their own body as well. Though they are less serious they have the same principle involved which was the point I was making and one you have missed. Just because its their own body doesn't mean we should automatically step back and do nothing or just accept that we have no right to intervene. Having a baby is a far bigger thing and that makes it even more important that we should get involved. But I havnt said anything about forcing anyone to do something against their will. I have my beliefs and if they decide to do things their way in the end I will still love and accept them all the same.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  13. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Maybe this got missed, but regardless I don't like leaving things half finished. So, I'll assume the answer to my question is yes - that it is common for women experiencing rape trauma and pregnancy to despise the baby. I thought it was also interesting that these women often feel pressured to abort. Not pressure to carry to term (though statistics indicate most do), but pressure to abort. Some women probably do feel pressure to carry to term, but the article doesn't mention it. So, in summary, what we have is:

    * Rape causes the woman to feel a loss of control
    * After the rape, many feel pressured to abort
    * Despite that pressure, most decide to carry to term
    * This could be in part because many are in denial, and so won't even acknowledge the pregnancy until they are late in their term
    * Many also have negative emotions toward the baby

    What is the best way to counsel such a situation? I don't see in the literature a clear answer to that. There are some indications that immersion works as it also seems it might work for PTSD. Immersion is forcing the patient to relive the trauma over and over while at the same time teaching them a relaxation technique as a reaction.

    But does that address the baby? Not really as far as I can tell. I am not aware of any therapeutic technique that teaches one should kill what one hates, and pressuring for an abortion or offering it as a "choice" is advocating that the woman should kill what she hates ... [edit] or, as I first mentioned, it might also be an enabler for those in denial.

    Rather, what I have found in terms of therapy is an approach that leads the patient to forgive, and that forgiving is best supported by an altruistic (i.e. loving) act:

    "The Use of Altruism and Forgiveness in Therapy"
    Joseph R. Canale, Royce White, and Kim Kelly
    Journal of Religion and Health 35,3 (Fall 1996): 225-230
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
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