Query about believers who sin

Dave RP

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ibwaz having a chat with my partner this morning, she is a practicing Christian, and she wondered about forgiveness and judgement.

As she’s now gone off to church and I’m shortly off to the pub then football I thought I’d ask if there was a consensus.

If belief gets you into heaven but you repeatedly and knowingly commit sin (drinking alcohol and engaging in sexual relations outside marriage fir example) will you still be accepted and forgiven on judgement day?

Or might she be joining me and other non Christians in the lake of fire or wherever the other place is?
 

Sabertooth

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That is a central debate among Christians called Eternal Security vs. Conditional Security. Unfortunately, we don't get to decide which is true. We have to make our best assessment and hope that we are correct.

The same debate can be framed as Passive (with God) Christianity vs. Collaborative (with God) Christianity.

Not knowing, Collaborative is the safest bet.
  • If you are Passive, when God expects you to be Collaborative, you lose.
  • If you are Collaborative, when God is okay with Passive, you still win.
Collaborative Christianity isn't about not making mistakes along the Way. It is best described on THIS PAGE.
 
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Dave-W

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In my mind the question has to be asked: if someone continues sinning; Intentionally; are they REALLY a believer??

My guess would be NO.
 
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Lost4words

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A believer can sin. I truly believe and sin. Its a daily battle.

One has to try very hard to stay pure. If not, you have to ask God for forgiveness and try your very best not to sin again. For some, that is very easy. For me, as i said, its a daily battle.
 
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salt-n-light

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ibwaz having a chat with my partner this morning, she is a practicing Christian, and she wondered about forgiveness and judgement.

As she’s now gone off to church and I’m shortly off to the pub then football I thought I’d ask if there was a consensus.

If belief gets you into heaven but you repeatedly and knowingly commit sin (drinking alcohol and engaging in sexual relations outside marriage fir example) will you still be accepted and forgiven on judgement day?

Or might she be joining me and other non Christians in the lake of fire or wherever the other place is?

You know the students I use to get that would ask me about getting an F in the class? Usually, the ones who were not doing what they were supposed to do to get an A. Stuff such as:

Reading the syllabus
Asking for help during office hours
Coming to class on time and regularly
Involve in class sessions/ study with classmates
Doing assignments on time

It's a different story if I see they are asking for grace because of an emergency. And I can only give grace so much since at the end of the day, I don't have the time and i have to hold a standard thats fair to all. But typically, if there is no emergency, but they are wondering if they are gonna make it, I just point them back to the syllabus. Should a teacher reward a student for continually not doing what they are supposed to be doing? No.

I've always wondered, why fight just to merely avoid an F? Wouldn't it be wiser and simpler to just aim for the A instead? It makes it easier for them, but also gives me more time to give options to help them. But that's how we are as humans. A lot of times we more put ourselves in situations where we want to fight to avoid an F, when that same energy could just be towards aiming for the A.

So I would point back, what does the Bible say about willfully sinning? Plenty of scriptures that she can just google right now, and it will explain clear as day the consequence ( 1 John 3:4-10). I can't speak for non-believers such as yourself ( because I figured non-believers, since they don't believe, wouldn't care or hold value on sin or any of its consequences, unless they were planning to believe), in my eyes as a teacher, unless you were planning on enrolling, you're not even in the class.

But for believers/students like her, it would be practicing lawlessness, and there is no reward for that. If she wants to be rewarded, then her time is better spent to doing things towards that, and not thing towards barely making it just to avoid wrath. If she wants to see others rewarded, then she should just encourage others to do the same.
 
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zephcom

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ibwaz having a chat with my partner this morning, she is a practicing Christian, and she wondered about forgiveness and judgement.

As she’s now gone off to church and I’m shortly off to the pub then football I thought I’d ask if there was a consensus.

If belief gets you into heaven but you repeatedly and knowingly commit sin (drinking alcohol and engaging in sexual relations outside marriage fir example) will you still be accepted and forgiven on judgement day?

Or might she be joining me and other non Christians in the lake of fire or wherever the other place is?

Christianity relies on the human brain's ability to compartmentalize the world we live in. By that, I mean the ability to hold conflicting beliefs and views of the real world within one's life.

For instance, Christianity teaches that none can be perfect except for Jesus Himself. It also teaches that one needs to be perfect to 'earn' acceptance into Heaven.

We see people come through the forums here all the time who are making themselves sick worrying about whether the 'sin' which they are afflicted with will cause them to 'lose' their salvation.

Without the ability to compartmentalize their lives, Christianity would make anyone insane.

The reality is that no one comes back from the 'other side' of the life/death barrier so we truly don't have any evidence for what happens after death.

But if one is going to believe the Bible is a good source of information about that, one should read 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5. In there it says that the effect of Jesus on -all- of humanity is that He reversed the effect of Adam on -all- of humanity. That means -all- of humanity is returned to the state of goodness that Adam possessed before the fall.

I don't know how much better one can get than that. The bottom line is that the most likely outcome based on the Bible is that both you and her will ultimately end up in 'Heaven'.
 
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Par5

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A believer can sin. I truly believe and sin. Its a daily battle.

One has to try very hard to stay pure. If not, you have to ask God for forgiveness and try your very best not to sin again. For some, that is very easy. For me, as i said, its a daily battle.
I would be very interested to know what it is that you find you have to struggle against each day. What on earth do you get up to each day that causes you such concern? I am genuinely interested to know. Thanks.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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ibwaz having a chat with my partner this morning, she is a practicing Christian, and she wondered about forgiveness and judgement.

As she’s now gone off to church and I’m shortly off to the pub then football I thought I’d ask if there was a consensus.

If belief gets you into heaven but you repeatedly and knowingly commit sin (drinking alcohol and engaging in sexual relations outside marriage fir example) will you still be accepted and forgiven on judgement day?

Or might she be joining me and other non Christians in the lake of fire or wherever the other place is?

Drinking alcohol isn't a sin last time I checked; just like owning and using a hammer isn't a sin. It's the misuses to which we put good things that are sinful rather than the simple and limited application of those good things for good purposes.

On the other hand, the having of sex outside of the bounds of marriage is another issue...one that you and your girlfriend need to think more deeply about rather than just continuing on in the same spiritually bound rut, month after month and year after year.

...and no, belief in and of itself isn't what 'gets us to heaven,' and it's sure not what's going to ensure that your girlfriend gains eternal life with Christ. The myth-interpretation that God's grace and mercy is applied freely and without conditions through Jesus Christ needs to die, but as so often happens, un-realistic, wishful thinking tends to win out over the truth, even within the Church of Christ.

However, what all of this means for your Christian girlfriend in the context of The Final Accounting is something that I leave in God's hands to sort out. I'm not going to pontificate over all of that.
 
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eleos1954

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ibwaz having a chat with my partner this morning, she is a practicing Christian, and she wondered about forgiveness and judgement.

As she’s now gone off to church and I’m shortly off to the pub then football I thought I’d ask if there was a consensus.

If belief gets you into heaven but you repeatedly and knowingly commit sin (drinking alcohol and engaging in sexual relations outside marriage fir example) will you still be accepted and forgiven on judgement day?

Or might she be joining me and other non Christians in the lake of fire or wherever the other place is?

belief - believing includes a whole lot more than just a belief that Christ exists, it is accepting Him as your savior and then inviting Him to help change you by getting to know Him through His Word and following Him in His ways. Believing is evidenced by a changed way of life and is continuous throughout ones life (mess ups here and there - but not continuous). If one repeatedly (continuously and knowingly commits sin) ... they are not a "believer" they are committing blasphemy which is the unpardonable sin ... and that is when one continuously rejects and/or ignores Gods drawing of them to Him and rejects His teachings through His Word and His holy spirit then ceases working in the believer.

And yes ... if one commits blasphemy they will be destroyed on the final judgement day.
 
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salt-n-light

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Christianity relies on the human brain's ability to compartmentalize the world we live in. By that, I mean the ability to hold conflicting beliefs and views of the real world within one's life.

For instance, Christianity teaches that none can be perfect except for Jesus Himself. It also teaches that one needs to be perfect to 'earn' acceptance into Heaven.

We see people come through the forums here all the time who are making themselves sick worrying about whether the 'sin' which they are afflicted with will cause them to 'lose' their salvation.

Without the ability to compartmentalize their lives, Christianity would make anyone insane.

The reality is that no one comes back from the 'other side' of the life/death barrier so we truly don't have any evidence for what happens after death.

But if one is going to believe the Bible is a good source of information about that, one should read 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5. In there it says that the effect of Jesus on -all- of humanity is that He reversed the effect of Adam on -all- of humanity. That means -all- of humanity is returned to the state of goodness that Adam possessed before the fall.

I don't know how much better one can get than that. The bottom line is that the most likely outcome based on the Bible is that both you and her will ultimately end up in 'Heaven'.

Perhaps you ended up or you’ve witness someone who compartmentalizing their own selves for the sake of religion, but that is not what Christianity ask people to do, and I hope you are not ignorantly spreading that.

The person have to resolve it individually within theirselves by deciding whether or not they want to be part of the world or not. Those that already chose God, are not fragmented, they have made a choice and are waking through life honoring that. Just like those that reject Christ made a choice and are walking through that honoring that.

Christianity like anything else asks you to make a choice. Do people struggle with choices everyday? Yes. It’s not comparmentalizing it’s called facing responsibility. When people comparmentalizing, it’s usually because they don’t like facing that responsibility.
 
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Par5

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belief - believing includes a whole lot more than just a belief that Christ exists, it is accepting Him as your savior and then inviting Him to help change you by getting to know Him through His Word and following Him in His ways. Believing is evidenced by a changed way of life and is continuous throughout ones life (mess ups here and there - but not continuous). If one repeatedly (continuously and knowingly commits sin) ... they are not a "believer" they are committing blasphemy which is the unpardonable sin ... and that is when one continuously rejects and/or ignores Gods drawing of them to Him and rejects His teachings through His Word and His holy spirit then ceases working in the believer.

And yes ... if one commits blasphemy they will be destroyed on the final judgement day.
But what is sin? I am sure I can name things that Christians would call sin that I would also avoid doing although some Christians have told me that simply being an unbeliever means I am in a permanent state of sin. So besides my unbelief, what are the things that Christians call sin that I need to avoid? Sure, there are very obvious things that we can agree we shouldn't do, but judging by the angst that some Christians go through each day worrying about being sinful, I am curious to know the kind of sins that bother them so.
 
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eleos1954

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But what is sin? I am sure I can name things that Christians would call sin that I would also avoid doing although some Christians have told me that simply being an unbeliever means I am in a permanent state of sin. So besides my unbelief, what are the things that Christians call sin that I need to avoid? Sure, there are very obvious things that we can agree we shouldn't do, but judging by the angst that some Christians go through each day worrying about being sinful, I am curious to know the kind of sins that bother them so.

Sin is transgression of Gods laws. Christians who have accepted Jesus and invited Him into their lives, to change their lives know and/or learn His laws from the Bible and plus the Holy Spirit working in them are made very aware when they do sin.

People choosing to be an atheist actually are being influenced by God, but do not acknowledge it as such. I mean what really is stopping you from murder, rape, burglary and such? How and why do you consider these things "wrong" or do you? One could say mans laws (many of which are based on Gods laws) ... one could say society evolved that way ... ok ... if society evolved that way, why did they? How do atheists determine within themselves what is "right" and what is "wrong" ... based on what? What guides or influences your decision making process of what is right and what is wrong?
 
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Tinker Grey

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Sin is transgression of Gods laws.
Cool. Since gods don't exist I don't sin.

People choosing to be an atheist
People don't choose to be atheist. An atheist is one that is unconvinced that gods exist. I cannot *choose* to be convinced.
actually are being influenced by God, but do not acknowledge it as such.
Don't pretend to know things that you don't know.
I mean what really is stopping you from murder, rape, burglary and such?
How and why do you consider these things "wrong" or do you?
Empathy.
One could say mans laws (many of which are based on Gods laws) ... one could say society evolved that way ... ok ... if society evolved that way, why did they?
Social species are those species that gained reproductive success through cooperation.
How do atheists determine within themselves what is "right" and what is "wrong" ... based on what? What guides or influences your decision making process of what is right and what is wrong?
Empathy.
 
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eleos1954

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Cool. Since gods don't exist I don't sin.

People don't choose to be atheist. An atheist is one that is unconvinced that gods exist. I cannot *choose* to be convinced.Don't pretend to know things that you don't know. Empathy.Social species are those species that gained reproductive success through cooperation.
Empathy.

Why do humans have empathy?

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another

so empathy is driven by sex/reproduction?
 
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zephcom

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Perhaps you ended up or you’ve witness someone who compartmentalizing their own selves for the sake of religion, but that is not what Christianity ask people to do, and I hope you are not ignorantly spreading that.

The person have to resolve it individually within theirselves by deciding whether or not they want to be part of the world or not. Those that already chose God, are not fragmented, they have made a choice and are waking through life honoring that. Just like those that reject Christ made a choice and are walking through that honoring that.

Christianity like anything else asks you to make a choice. Do people struggle with choices everyday? Yes. It’s not comparmentalizing it’s called facing responsibility. When people comparmentalizing, it’s usually because they don’t like facing that responsibility.

You may call it 'not facing responsibility' if you like but it really is compartmentalizing. It is the ability to 'believe' something which is completely contrary to to reality while still believing in reality.

In order to do that, one has to create a compartment to put the belief in and another to put reality in. As long as the two compartments remain separated people can believe both are actual fact. It is only when someone forces a person to merge both compartments together does the conflict become a problem.

Let me illustrate. The religion says Jesus' birth was the product of a virgin woman and some interaction with God Himself. That works great when one is in Church. But when one's daughter announces that her and God are expecting a baby one comes face to face with the fact that isn't true.

THAT is what compartmentalization is.

Keep the two incidents separate and everything is okay. Merge them together and nothing is okay.

A person who puts everything in one compartment has to be able to understand everything as interacting with everything else. That person has to be able to understand the birth of Jesus and the pregnancy of one's daughter as possibly being identical.

If they are identical, then there are only two options, Jesus was the product a human man and human woman or one's daughter is carrying God's next child. Which is the normal person going to choose? I'm not choosing that my daughter is carrying God's next child regardless of what she tells me.

It takes the ability to create compartments in one's mind to accept Jesus' birth as told in the Bible while at the same time rejecting a claim from any woman today that they are carrying God's next child.
 
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Par5

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Sin is transgression of Gods laws. Christians who have accepted Jesus and invited Him into their lives, to change their lives know and/or learn His laws from the Bible and plus the Holy Spirit working in them are made very aware when they do sin.

People choosing to be an atheist actually are being influenced by God, but do not acknowledge it as such. I mean what really is stopping you from murder, rape, burglary and such? How and why do you consider these things "wrong" or do you? One could say mans laws (many of which are based on Gods laws) ... one could say society evolved that way ... ok ... if society evolved that way, why did they? How do atheists determine within themselves what is "right" and what is "wrong" ... based on what? What guides or influences your decision making process of what is right and what is wrong?
I will just reiterate what Tinker Grey said, "empathy".
If Christians have all this support in life, god, the bible, the holy spirit, why is it that so many of them find it difficult to get through the day without worrying about sinning? The way some Christians talk you would think that each day was a minefield of temptation that they have to negotiate, treading ever so carefully in order to keep a clean sheet.
You are not the first Christian to question how I determine right from wrong, but whether you believe it or not, I don't have much difficulty in determining right from wrong, and it is typical Christian arrogance to imply that to be very aware of wrongdoing I need to believe as they do.
 
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Dave RP

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Drinking alcohol isn't a sin last time I checked; just like owning and using a hammer isn't a sin. It's the misuses to which we put good things that are sinful rather than the simple and limited application of those good things for good purposes.

On the other hand, the having of sex outside of the bounds of marriage is another issue...one that you and your girlfriend need to think more deeply about rather than just continuing on in the same spiritually bound rut, month after month and year after year.

...and no, belief in and of itself isn't what 'gets us to heaven,' and it's sure not what's going to ensure that your girlfriend gains eternal life with Christ. The myth-interpretation that God's grace and mercy is applied freely and without conditions through Jesus Christ needs to die, but as so often happens, un-realistic, wishful thinking tends to win out over the truth, even within the Church of Christ.

However, what all of this means for your Christian girlfriend in the context of The Final Accounting is something that I leave in God's hands to sort out. I'm not going to pontificate over all of that.
The sex outside of marriage is interesting because if a couple are in a committed, exclusive, loving relationship then they are in a way married. The act of marriage can be undertaken in many ways, and who says a piece of paper is needed to confirm ones relationship status?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The sex outside of marriage is interesting because if a couple are in a committed, exclusive, loving relationship then they are in a way married. The act of marriage can be undertaken in many ways, and who says a piece of paper is needed to confirm ones relationship status?

Of course, a piece of 'paper' isn't needed, but from a biblical point of view there's more to a bona-fide relationship between two people than just the apparent manifestation between them of a rather loosely defined sense of commitment, exclusivity and/or love.

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying this as a condemnation but rather as a biblical statement of fact for you to consider further.
 
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Par5

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Sin is transgression of Gods laws. Christians who have accepted Jesus and invited Him into their lives, to change their lives know and/or learn His laws from the Bible and plus the Holy Spirit working in them are made very aware when they do sin.

People choosing to be an atheist actually are being influenced by God, but do not acknowledge it as such. I mean what really is stopping you from murder, rape, burglary and such? How and why do you consider these things "wrong" or do you? One could say mans laws (many of which are based on Gods laws) ... one could say society evolved that way ... ok ... if society evolved that way, why did they? How do atheists determine within themselves what is "right" and what is "wrong" ... based on what? What guides or influences your decision making process of what is right and what is wrong?
As regards a Christian being very aware when they sin, could you be more specific?
When you are suddenly very aware that you have sinned, what are the things you do, think or say that makes you very aware that you have sinned?
 
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