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FredVB

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Bathsheba was the mother of Solomon, not David. The office of queen mother started in the Davidic kingdom under the reign of King Solomon.

A king does not inherently need a queen. The practice of having the king's mother referred to as queen is incidental, and even if became a tradition it is not ordained from God. Only God in fact is the rightful king. Yet Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God, and so then is God as the Son. So Jesus would be rightful king. His mother Mary has no claim to godhood or the rightful kingship with that. There is only tradition that is not ordained from God that has Mary in what way she is remembered referred to as Queen of Heaven. Certainly in the Bible Queen of Heaven is mentioned in referrence to an idolatrous practice.
 
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Valletta

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A king does not inherently need a queen. The practice of having the king's mother referred to as queen is incidental, and even if became a tradition it is not ordained from God. Only God in fact is the rightful king. Yet Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God, and so then is God as the Son. So Jesus would be rightful king. His mother Mary has no claim to godhood or the rightful kingship with that. There is only tradition that is not ordained from God that has Mary in what way she is remembered referred to as Queen of Heaven. Certainly in the Bible Queen of Heaven is mentioned in referrence to an idolatrous practice.
Oh my. Catholic believe the Bible is the Word of God. The importance of the Queen Mother in the Davidic kingdom is well emphasized in the Bible. She's not just called a queen, she is the gebirah who holds an important office. 1 Kings 2:19 shows just how important: "And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother, and she sat on his right."
 
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bbbbbbb

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Oh my. Catholic believe the Bible is the Word of God. The importance of the Queen Mother in the Davidic kingdom is well emphasized in the Bible. She's not just called a queen, she is the gebirah who holds an important office. 1 Kings 2:19 shows just how important: "And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother, and she sat on his right."

Oh my, indeed! We all have a really creative way of fitting the Bible to our reality whether we are aware of it or not. Despite my best efforts I am very often blind to my own errors.
 
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The Liturgist

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Certainly in the Bible Queen of Heaven is mentioned in referrence to an idolatrous practice.

Now, on this point, in all fairness to everyone, we should note that a great many false religions contain true doctrines. For example, the Zoroastrians believe in God, the devil, and a hierarchy of angels and archangels (indeed Zoroastrian angelology is extremely complex, yet in many respects similar to Judeo-Christian angelology). The Egyptian pagans believed that Pharaoh was an incarnate god, and believed in a joyous afterlife. For that matter, Orthodox Judaism believes in most of what we believe in as Christians, but they reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah and accept the Talmud, both of which are severe and unfortunate errors.*

There are many other instances of otherwise false religions containing some truth to them, although only Christianity has the fullness of the truth.

In the specific case of West Semitic Paganism, we see this pattern again, which I believe you are referring to, we do have Astarte or Asherah, who in the Ugaritic Canaanite tradition, however, this deity, which was closely linked to El and Ba’al, and in Egypt there was apparently even a temple where Asherah was linked to the worship of Yahweh. Now the important thing to consider is that our God (known as Yahweh, Yah, El, Elohim, El-Elyon and Jesus Christ, a Hellenization of Joshua, which means “Yah Saves”, and of course Yah or Yahwej means “I AM” or “I AM that I AM”, which our Lord also identifies as, and El is a generic West Semitic word meaning God, related to the Aramaic Alaha and the Arabic Allah (which are the words Syriac and Arabic speaking Christians use to refer to God, respectively), is the real God, and various idolatrous distortions of His worship including, for example, the depiction of Him as a bull, do not change that.

In the case of Roman Catholicism, since Jesus Christ is the Mother of God, I see no basis for rejecting the idea that she is akin to a Queen Mother of Heaven. Certainly she is the most venerable Christian who ever lived, in that she was closer to God than anyone else, having raised Him in the person of the Son from infancy to adulthood, and her intercession at the wedding feast in Cana was enough to cause him to convert water into wine, a miracle He worked before His ministry had begun, as is evident from the Gospel according to St. John, and this is extremely important to consider and recall. We can likewise interpret His making the Virgin Mary the mother of the Beloved Disciple as being more than her entrusting the care of St. John to the Theotokos; it seems evident that this act was really entrusting the care of all of the beloved disciples, which is to say us, the Church, to her.

What would be an error would be what a group within Roman Catholicism that believes in the visions of Ida Peerdeman, a Dutch woman who had encounters with something which called itself “The Lady, which was once called Mary” and who made on one occasion, if Peerdeman is to be believed, a threat accompanied with a clenched fist, advocates: “the Fifth Dogma,” in which they are basically calling for the Pope to declare ex cathedra a new doctrine, that Mary is the Co-Redemptrix. This is a huge error, and the motivations for it are at least in part derived by visions on the part of Ida Peerdeman that the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, the Roman Catholic body responsible for, among other things, evaluating claims of private revelations, declared unworthy of belief. I myself think that Ida Peerdeman was visited by, and fell victim to the deceit of, a sinister entity, a demon of some sort, and it is an extremely sad story, and I wish the Roman Catholic Church, aside from merely refusing to accept the visions of Ida Peerdeman as legitimate, would do something to actively warn the faithful about it and try to shut down the whole “Fifth Dogma” movement, but I expect we will have to wait at least until Pope Francis retires.

*Karaite Jews reject the Talmud but also still deny Christ, and also curiously do not believe in the devil; they consider the serpent in the Garden of Eden to be an unusually intelligent and cunning snake, which I have to confess I find very funny.
 
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Valletta

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Oh my, indeed! We all have a really creative way of fitting the Bible to our reality whether we are aware of it or not. Despite my best efforts I am very often blind to my own errors.
To me the fact that the king bows down to the queen shows the importance of the position, I don't think that one has to be particularly creative to come to that conclusion. Consider the situation between wife and king as in 1 Kings 1:16: "Bethsabee bowed herself, and worshipped the king. And the king said to her: What is thy will?" Douay-Rheims
 
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bbbbbbb

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How do you know? There is nothing in Scripture which contradicts this position.

Playing the role of a certain advocate, one can also assert that there is nothing in the Bible saying that John the Baptist only possessed one head, which enables each and every party claiming to have part or all of his skull in their possession to be perfectly justified in their belief.
 
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The Liturgist

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Playing the role of a certain advocate, one can also assert that there is nothing in the Bible saying that John the Baptist only possessed one head, which enables each and every party claiming to have part or all of his skull in their possession to be perfectly justified in their belief.

So on that point, while I have not looked at the data concerning the precious skull of St. John, I can tell you that a French scientist in the 19th century did add up the total mass of all known fragments of the Holy Cross, and less than a third of it is accounted for, based on generally accepted estimates as to its size (he did not count the wing of the cross in possession of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as its existence was at the time not widely known outside of Ethiopia). Even if we include the Ethiopian wing, however, we are still short, and also Calvin’s claim that there were enough fragments of the cross to build a galleon can be dismissed as reckless hyperbole.

Having venerated both relics of the skull of St. John the Baptist, and the intact skull of St. Joseph the Hesychast, given the extremely small and fragmentary nature of the former, I would be surprised if the entire mass of the head of the glorious forerunner is accounted for, but again, I have not looked into it, and there are occasional spurious relics.

This is why it is important that relics be verified...true relics tend to possess miraculous properties, such as the myrhh-streaming relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, or the Holy Cross, which was identified by St. Helena through a miraculous incident.
 
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prodromos

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Playing the role of a certain advocate, one can also assert that there is nothing in the Bible saying that John the Baptist only possessed one head, which enables each and every party claiming to have part or all of his skull in their possession to be perfectly justified in their belief.
This nonsense has been dealt with at least a couple of times on CF yet you continue to propagate this falsehood. No one claims to have the complete skull of John the Baptist and each of the visible relics on display are different parts of his skull.

St. Sylvester Church in Rome has the occipital bone, from the back of the skull, which is embedded in a facsimile of the rest of the skull.

The Topkapi Palace Museum in Istanbul has the parietal bone.

The Cathedral in Ameins had the supraorbital and infraorbital foramen, but what is on display now is a replica as the relic was lost during the French Revolution.

The relinquary in the Residenz museum in Munich, Germany, is completely covered so it is not possible to determine what remaining part of the skull is there. It is possibly the mandible.
 
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So on that point, while I have not looked at the data concerning the precious skull of St. John, I can tell you that a French scientist in the 19th century did add up the total mass of all known fragments of the Holy Cross, and less than a third of it is accounted for, based on generally accepted estimates as to its size (he did not count the wing of the cross in possession of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as its existence was at the time not widely known outside of Ethiopia). Even if we include the Ethiopian wing, however, we are still short, and also Calvin’s claim that there were enough fragments of the cross to build a galleon can be dismissed as reckless hyperbole.

Having venerated both relics of the skull of St. John the Baptist, and the intact skull of St. Joseph the Hesychast, given the extremely small and fragmentary nature of the former, I would be surprised if the entire mass of the head of the glorious forerunner is accounted for, but again, I have not looked into it, and there are occasional spurious relics.

This is why it is important that relics be verified...true relics tend to possess miraculous properties, such as the myrhh-streaming relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, or the Holy Cross, which was identified by St. Helena through a miraculous incident.

Therein lies the extremely difficult challenge - verification. As an example, the Shroud of Turin was examined by a team of forensic scientists, among whom was the renowned microscopist Walter McCrone who concluded that the red markings on the shroud were actually not blood at all but an iron-based paint. His findings were unanticipated, to say the least.
 
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narnia59

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A king does not inherently need a queen. The practice of having the king's mother referred to as queen is incidental, and even if became a tradition it is not ordained from God. Only God in fact is the rightful king. Yet Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God, and so then is God as the Son. So Jesus would be rightful king. His mother Mary has no claim to godhood or the rightful kingship with that. There is only tradition that is not ordained from God that has Mary in what way she is remembered referred to as Queen of Heaven. Certainly in the Bible Queen of Heaven is mentioned in referrence to an idolatrous practice.
So who would you propose is sitting at the right hand of Christ? He is clear that the Father has reserved two places, one at his right hand and one at his left (Matthew 20:23). So that position at the right hand of Christ is indeed ordained by God.

Psalm 45 is a messianic prophecy of the bridegroom king. "6 Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows; 8 your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia. From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad; 9 daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor; at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir."

So, we know from Scripture that someone will be sitting at the right hand of Christ in a reserved place pre-ordained by God. Psalm 45 tells us that it will be the queen. Jewish tradition tells us that honor of being queen belongs to the king's mother.

Since you do not seem to agree with that conclusion, I would like to hear who you propose who will be the queen standing at the right hand of Christ the King.
 
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narnia59

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Playing the role of a certain advocate, one can also assert that there is nothing in the Bible saying that John the Baptist only possessed one head, which enables each and every party claiming to have part or all of his skull in their possession to be perfectly justified in their belief.
Same question to you. Who do you propose is sitting at the right hand of Christ? He is clear that the Father has reserved two places, one at his right hand and one at his left (Matthew 20:23). So that position at the right hand of Christ is indeed ordained by God.

Psalm 45 is a messianic prophecy of the bridegroom king. "6 Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows; 8 your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia. From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad; 9 daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor; at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir."

So, we know from Scripture that someone will be sitting at the right hand of Christ in a reserved place pre-ordained by God. Psalm 45 tells us that it will be the queen. Jewish tradition tells us that honor of being queen belongs to the king's mother.

Since you do not seem to agree with that conclusion, I would like to hear who you propose who will be the queen standing at the right hand of Christ the King.
 
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narnia59

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This nonsense has been dealt with at least a couple of times on CF yet you continue to propagate this falsehood. No one claims to have the complete skull of John the Baptist and each of the visible relics on display are different parts of his skull.

St. Sylvester Church in Rome has the occipital bone, from the back of the skull, which is embedded in a facsimile of the rest of the skull.

The Topkapi Palace Museum in Istanbul has the parietal bone.

The Cathedral in Ameins had the supraorbital and infraorbital foramen, but what is on display now is a replica as the relic was lost during the French Revolution.

The relinquary in the Residenz museum in Munich, Germany, is completely covered so it is not possible to determine what remaining part of the skull is there. It is possibly the mandible.
Facts are confusing you know.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Who do you propose is sitting at the right hand of Christ?
You know when that mother asked Jesus to put her son's one one His left the other on His right in His Kingdom? Jesus said "you don't know what you are asking for, can you drink the cup I'm about to drink?" She can she said. Jesus told her she would but the ones on His right and left are prepared by His Father. So these two on His right and left drink the same cup from the Father's hand as Jesus did. Those two are crucified with Jesus one on His right the other on His left.
 
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Same question to you. Who do you propose is sitting at the right hand of Christ? He is clear that the Father has reserved two places, one at his right hand and one at his left (Matthew 20:23). So that position at the right hand of Christ is indeed ordained by God.

Psalm 45 is a messianic prophecy of the bridegroom king. "6 Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows; 8 your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia. From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad; 9 daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor; at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir."

So, we know from Scripture that someone will be sitting at the right hand of Christ in a reserved place pre-ordained by God. Psalm 45 tells us that it will be the queen. Jewish tradition tells us that honor of being queen belongs to the king's mother.

Since you do not seem to agree with that conclusion, I would like to hear who you propose who will be the queen standing at the right hand of Christ the King.


Ummmm. The Holy Spirit? If Christ needs a queen sitting at his right hand, who is sitting at God's left hand - His Queen? Who is God's Queen?

Ah, there are very few things to be compared with speculative theology.
 
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prodromos

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You know when that mother asked Jesus to put her son's one one His left the other on His right in His Kingdom? Jesus said "you don't know what you are asking for, can you drink the cup I'm about to drink?" She can she said. Jesus told her she would but the ones on His right and left are prepared by His Father. So these two on His right and left drink the same cup from the Father's hand as Jesus did. Those two are crucified with Jesus one on His right the other on His left.
You are mixing the two accounts. It was James and John who said they could drink of the same cup, not their mother Salome.
 
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prodromos

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Ummmm. The Holy Spirit? If Christ needs a queen sitting at his right hand, who is sitting at God's left hand - His Queen? Who is God's Queen?
The question was "who is sitting at Christ's right hand?", not "who is sitting at the Father's right hand?".
Ah, there are very few things to be compared with speculative theology.
Especially when you deliberately confuse the persons of the Holy Trinity :doh:
 
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bbbbbbb

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The question was "who is sitting at Christ's right hand?", not "who is sitting at the Father's right hand?".

Especially when you deliberately confuse the persons of the Holy Trinity :doh:

Interestingly, the account written in the Apocalypse has one throne on which the Lamb is seated, as is God. Without an understanding of the Holy Trinity, this would create great confusion. In any event, Jesus Christ is portrayed in scripture as seated at the Father's right hand, sharing God's throne (as in the Apocalypse) and standing at God's right hand making intercession as the Great High Priest.

Nowhere is there the slightest hint of any other human being, male or female, in the intimate presence of the Godhead. The closest that seems to happen is when the elders cast their crowns before the Lamb.
 
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="programs, post: 76415659, member: 19467"]You are mixing the two accounts. It was James and John who said they could drink of the same cup, not their mother Salome.[21/QUOTE]
@prodrmos

k thank you for the correction. As it pertains to my post it doesn't change anything does it?

20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling before him, she asked a favor of him. 21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Declare that these two sons of mine will sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” 23 He said to them, “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left, this is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
 
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