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Featured Queen Esther Naked?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by joshua 1 9, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    11 to bring Queen Vashti before him, wearing her royal crown, to display her beauty to the people and officials. For she was beautiful to behold.

    When we read this story of Queen Vashti, there are some interesting and unusual things that we read. For example there were seven eunuchs in this story and the names of all 7 of them were listed. Why are we given that information?

    The main point of the story is that Queen Vashti refused to appear. The King then had her killed. I guess they did not have divorce back then. That was when he hooked up with the women that was to become Queen Esther, who went on to save her people.

    The conservative "Jewish" people believe the story of Esther is an archetype of the story of Eve. Only Esther made all the right choices. Also they believe that the King asked Vashti to present herself before all of these drunk people naked.

    Naked is a big part of the story of Adam and Eve. I really do not see anything in the story of Queen Vashti where the king wanted her to show up naked to display her before his guests. Does anyone see any indication of that in her story in the Bible?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Not so.

    Est 1:19 If it pleases the king, let a royal edict be issued by him and let it be written in the laws of Persia and Media so that it cannot be repealed, that Vashti may no longer come into the presence of King Ahasuerus, and let the king give her royal position to another who is more worthy than she.

    Vashti was exiled, not killed.
     
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  3. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❣️ His little lady ❣️ Supporter

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    If it please the king, let a royal order go out from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes so that it may not be repealed, that Vashti is never again to come before King Ahasuerus. And let the king give her royal position to another who is better than she.

    He didn’t kill her. He banished her. Some would call it divorce. Esther wasn’t asked to do the same.
     
  4. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    First of all Queen Vashti was exiled, not killed. It’s assumed he asked her to appear naked because iirc he asked her to appear wearing her crown but nothing else was stipulated.

    The eunuchs were to look after the king’s haram. The chief eunuch was instrumental in getting her into the king’s good books. After the marriage the king attempted to round up all the virgins again but the eunuchs made a fuss. They ended up being crucified.(( Edit hanged. May have been before wedding with no reason attached to them wanting to kill king.))

    I don’t believe that it’s a remake of the garden. The natives of that area tell it that the king mentioned had burnt the library of Greece (?) and was so remorseful that he got drunk and banished the queen.

    What is significant to me is that the king left his treasures on display for 8 days. Hezakiah did that once and the nation suffered loss greatly for that act. FFT


    The other significant thing he did was add an edict that men were in control of the household, obviously not in effect previously.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  5. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❣️ His little lady ❣️ Supporter

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    Where does it say that the eunuchs were crucified?
     
  6. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Were are told that Queen Vashti was banished/no longer allowed to come into the presence of the king, and that she lost her royal position in the court, as well, but where does the Bible tell us that the King had her killed?

    Thanks!

    --David
    p.s. - it seems to me that some of the OP is Biblical, and some may be taken from Jewish folklore perhaps?
     
  7. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Hanged Esther 2:21-23 m'bad
     
  8. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    I am adding this reference to aid in the discussion:

    The Targum, an interpretive Aramaic translation of the Hebrew text, notes the conspicuous reference to the crown (or headdress) and infers that the queen was to wear nothing else—which could easily explain her refusal to appear before the king. Jewish historian Josephus, writing in the late first-century ad, insists that Persian law prohibited strangers from looking directly at a Persian wife, which he implies explains her refusal to appear. It could also be that she may not have desired to be viewed by a very large group of drunken revelers. However, she may have simply felt her responsibilities were to the women of her own banquet.

    Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., … Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible (Es 1:12). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
     
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  9. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Queen Vashti is often overlooked but she is one of the heroes in the story.

    Vashti stood her ground against evil deeds. Considering how much she would loose for defying the king. It's a huge act of courage.

    Proverbs 1:10
    My son, if sinners entice you, do not yield to them.
    Ephesians 5:11
    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
    Psalm 101:3
    I will not look with approval on anything that is vile. I hate what faithless people do; I will have no part in it.

    Her act of courage paved the way for Esther to become queen and save her country.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  10. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❣️ His little lady ❣️ Supporter

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    They were hanged for conspiring against the king. It wasn’t an uncommon practice in royal households. Conspiracies were often underfoot.
     
  11. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❣️ His little lady ❣️ Supporter

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    while he showed the riches of his royal glory and the splendor and pomp of his greatness for many days, 180 days.

    She was right to decline. A seven day binge of drunkenness is not an ideal setting to disrobe. Everyone was inebriated. Including the king.

    I think the request harkens back to his earlier boasts. He displayed everything he possessed; save her.
     
  12. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Again, obvious as to ownership by her denial. So he set up an irreversible (Persian) edict. (Something like the catholics have now)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  13. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    No - that refers only to the 2 guards that were plotting to assassinate the King.
     
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  14. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed ...
     
  15. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    I’m also fully convinced that Paul gets his ‘law’ from the book of Esther that became rabbinical law. incorporated into NC text. Where God is never mentioned in Esther Paul fills in the blanks and makes an analogy of it in comparison to Christ and church. Note the preparations of the bride to make herself ready.
     
  16. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The conservative "Jewish" people often teach that the Eve and Esther archetype is the same. Eve making the wrong choice & Esther making the right choice. Eve had to deal with the Serpent and Esther had to deal with Mordecai. The difference is that through Adam sin entered into the world. Esther we are told was able to deliver and save her people.

    Naked plays a big part in the Adam and Eve story. So perhaps that is why they try to work it into the story of Esther, but if it is there in that story then it must be hidden in some way. Even I think people miss the meaning of Adam and Eve being naked.
     
  17. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Rabbi Chaim Yosef David Azulai, wrote: Esther was a reincarnation of Eve, the Serpent was enclothed in Haman, and Mordecai was the reincarnation of Jacob, as recorded by the students of the Ari. Thus, Esther (as Eve) was bitter to Haman, who was the Serpent, who had brought her to sin - and sweet to Mordecai, who, as a reincarnation of Jacob, was also the reincarnation of Adam. (Dvash L'pi 5:2)​

    -Esther = Eve

    -Mordecai =Jacob

    -Bitterness = Haman (bad guy hat)

    -Sweetness = Mordecai (good guy hat)

    and again

    ..every one of the [five] senses was recorded in the account of the sin of Adam - except that of the sense of smell. Therefore, understand that the sense of smell wasn't ever really blemished, and for this reason it is a thing which the soul [Neshama] gets pleasure from, as opposed to the body.

    Thus, the scent was sweet to Mordecai. (And also because he himself is called "pure myrrh" [see Targum Onkelos on Ex. 30:23].) Thus, "[Mordecai] shouted a great shout" (Esther 4:1) for "the voice is good for [the quality of] spices". (Jerusalem Talmud, Yoma 23a)

    And the taste was bitter to Haman, for [it was him, as] the Serpent, who seduced Eve [to sin essentially with] the sense of taste [and received his punishment from the reincarnation of Eve, measure for measure].

    [From Benei Yisaschar, Adar 7:10]​


    -Incense of Bride made ready = soul candy not flesh candy

    -scent sweet to Mordecai because of being pure himself
    (anointing oil being attributed to him}

    -Mordakia’s voice as one calling out like J the B?


    Nope still don’t buy it.
     
  18. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Adam and Eve beinging naked, imo, reverts to the means of their covering, they covered themselves. The reverse is

    Romans 8:35
    Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    2 Corinthians 5:2-4
    For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling— 3 if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

    Hebrews 4:13
    And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.

    Revelation 16:15
    (“See, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and is clothed, not going about naked and exposed to shame.”)
     
  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Esther had to deal with Haman, Mordecai was her uncle.
     
  20. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    No mention of the king desiring to display his wife naked to the people.
    Paul also warned about paying heed to Jewish myths. One of which had to do with Adam trying out sexually all the animals and not finding one appropriate for him, which is why God then made Eve.

    10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar, and Carcas, seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, 11 to bring Queen Vashti before the king, wearing her royal crown, in order to show her beauty to the people and the officials, for she was beautiful to behold. 12 But Queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s command brought by his eunuchs; therefore the king was furious, and his anger burned within him.
     
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