Q. What if the...

JM

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...the pope became a heretic and fell away from the Roman Catholic faith? This of course is a hypothetical for Catholics, but what if a pope actively taught error and made changes to the catechism out of step with "the faith" what would happen? Would you still evangelize and encourage people to become Catholic?

I ask because I've been watching Roman Catholicism argue about Francis and his teachings online for years now. Some call him a heretic and others love him.

How do two Catholics that differ on such an important topic decide who is correct?

Thanks
 

Gnarwhal

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...the pope became a heretic and fell away from the Roman Catholic faith? This of course is a hypothetical for Catholics, but what if a pope actively taught error and made changes to the catechism out of step with "the faith" what would happen? Would you still evangelize and encourage people to become Catholic?

I ask because I've been watching Roman Catholicism argue about Francis and his teachings online for years now. Some call him a heretic and others love him.

How do two Catholics that differ on such an important topic decide who is correct?

Thanks

So there's an issue underneath this that is a misunderstanding of Papal authority in regards to the Magisterium and it really finds it's root in the First Vatican Council which is where the dogma of Papal Infallibility came from. That's kind of lead to a sense of ultramontanism in Catholic culture today that thinks every single thing the Pope comments on is an infallible statement.

The truth is, Catholics were never meant to hang on every word of the Pope outside of matters of faith and morals. And to that end, it's only when he speaks from the Chair of St. Peter (ex cathedra) that whatever pronouncement he hands down is considered infallible - and it's only infallible because it's already in complete harmony with the established teaching of the Church.

For example, if Pope Francis sat in the Chair of St. Peter and tried to declare that the Holy Trinity is really just three different modes of Jesus (Monergism) the fact that he's attempting to declare a heresy infallibly would, ipso facto, end his papacy in that very same moment.

A big part of this ultramontanistic view of the Pope is the 24 hour news cycle, there is constant coverage both within the Church and without that wants to tell the world everything the Pope is saying and doing. And because the media has placed so much importance on everything he's saying and doing, Catholics think everything he's saying and doing is absolutely critical and of biblical importance. But for thousands of years of Church history most Catholics around the world didn't even know who the Pope was at any given time. There was no EWTN or NCRegister spreading news from the Vatican, there was no CNN cherry picking the Holy Father's comments during an airplane presser. There was the local ordinary (bishop) the diocese and their respective parishes. Those were what Catholics focused on in their day to day lives, with underlying trust and belief that these things were all in communion with the Pope of Rome.
 
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JM

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So there's an issue underneath this that is a misunderstanding of Papal authority in regards to the Magisterium and it really finds it's root in the First Vatican Council which is where the dogma of Papal Infallibility came from. That's kind of lead to a sense of ultramontanism in Catholic culture today that thinks every single thing the Pope comments on is an infallible statement.

The truth is, Catholics were never meant to hang on every word of the Pope outside of matters of faith and morals. And to that end, it's only when he speaks from the Chair of St. Peter (ex cathedra) that whatever pronouncement he hands down is considered infallible - and it's only infallible because it's already in complete harmony with the established teaching of the Church.

For example, if Pope Francis sat in the Chair of St. Peter and tried to declare that the Holy Trinity is really just three different modes of Jesus (Monergism) the fact that he's attempting to declare a heresy infallibly would, ipso facto, end his papacy in that very same moment.

A big part of this ultramontanistic view of the Pope is the 24 hour news cycle, there is constant coverage both within the Church and without that wants to tell the world everything the Pope is saying and doing. And because the media has placed so much importance on everything he's saying and doing, Catholics think everything he's saying and doing is absolutely critical and of biblical importance. But for thousands of years of Church history most Catholics around the world didn't even know who the Pope was at any given time. There was no EWTN or NCRegister spreading news from the Vatican, there was no CNN cherry picking the Holy Father's comments during an airplane presser. There was the local ordinary (bishop) the diocese and their respective parishes. Those were what Catholics focused on in their day to day lives, with underlying trust and belief that these things were all in communion with the Pope of Rome.
No, I understand ex cathedra. ^_^

What if a pope is a false teacher, teaching things that are 'not catholic' in his sermons, interviews, etc causing confusion among Catholics? I see many Catholics online battling over Francis and the things he teaches and preaches. The next question is, how do you know which Catholic is right when two disagree, especially if one agrees with the pope that is teaching something un-catholic?

Thanks
 
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Michie

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No, I understand ex cathedra. ^_^

What if a pope is a false teacher, teaching things that are 'not catholic' in his sermons, interviews, etc causing confusion among Catholics? I see many Catholics online battling over Francis and the things he teaches and preaches. The next question is, how do you know which Catholic is right when two disagree, especially if one agrees with the pope that is teaching something un-catholic?

Thanks
The infallible teachings of the Church.
 
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Gnarwhal

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No, I understand ex cathedra. ^_^

What if a pope is a false teacher, teaching things that are 'not catholic' in his sermons, interviews, etc causing confusion among Catholics? I see many Catholics online battling over Francis and the things he teaches and preaches. The next question is, how do you know which Catholic is right when two disagree, especially if one agrees with the pope that is teaching something un-catholic?

Thanks

It's worth noting that there's a distinction to make between formal and material heresy. Essentially it means that a person says or does something heretical but they lack complete knowledge or understanding that it is, indeed, heresy. Now I realize that seems like a silly concept with the Pope because, well, he's the Pope. He ought to have the best knowledge of the Magisterium out of all the bishops, right? I'm not sure that's always the case. It's a known fact not all Popes have been theologians, some of them have just had different charisms - and Pope Francis charism has clearly been more focused on social issues.

To become a formal heretic one would need to propose a heretical concept deliberately while entirely knowing it's heretical. This is where that safeguard comes in because if Pope Francis ceremoniously sat in the Chair of Saint Peter tomorrow and declared that Jesus wasn't actually divine, well that's a formal heresy and he would in that very same moment cease to be Pope. It's like a forfeiture mechanism understood to essentially be built into the office of the Papacy.

Some Catholics accuse Pope Francis of heresy, but I think even for them it's very difficult to prove formal heresy because he's never tried to codify anything or make an infallible declaration (really almost no Pope has, at least not since V1).

If I haven't answered your question, I would close by saying that really the best remedy is for Catholics to understand what the Church actually teaches and believes. To be well guarded against heresy one ought to have formed their intellect with the teachings of the Church through the catechism (preferably the Roman Catechism AKA the Catechism of the Council of Trent). Then if a Pope were to commit material heresy everyday laymen wouldn't be as badly scandalized and if he were to commit formal heresy they could take comfort in knowing he essentially removed himself from the Papacy in doing so.
 
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chevyontheriver

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No, I understand ex cathedra. ^_^

What if a pope is a false teacher, teaching things that are 'not catholic' in his sermons, interviews, etc causing confusion among Catholics? I see many Catholics online battling over Francis and the things he teaches and preaches. The next question is, how do you know which Catholic is right when two disagree, especially if one agrees with the pope that is teaching something un-catholic?

Thanks
Your hypothetical is only semi-hypothetical.

I consider this pope to be the real pope but a bad pope. So far he has done nothing to go over the line to officially teach direct heresy. So while he says sloppy and even wrong things he hasn’t yet done so as an official teacher of the faith in that role as official teacher. He has made bad appointments, but those aren’t teachings. He has done nothing yet where the claims of infallibility have come at odds with what he has taught in the exercise of his office. He’s done lots of wacky things, and may do a few more before he goes on to whatever reward he has earned.

I try not to get bent out of shape by him. We have excellent teaching from popes John Paul and Benedict still worth reading. We have millions of faithful Catholics who know their faith and actually pray, we have the actual words(as opposed to some invisible spirit) of Vatican II, we have the councils, we have the saints and Fathers, we have the liturgy, we have the Scriptures. We don’t need to hang on every word of pope Francis. Some day there will be a new pope. And not much will have changed.

As to whether this is a good time to become Catholic, of course it is. Better to come when you are needed. Lots of us still know what being Catholic is all about. We can gain a couple of pointers from pope Francis, who is correct more often that a stopped watch, without adopting his whole agenda. The faith is still coherent even if pope Francis is out of synch. When he goes too far he will be corrected or deposed, or God will bring to a close his papacy.

Have you thought of becoming a Catholic?
 
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Michie

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I’m surprised you included that third link.
I did it show there is nothing new about this. There are always certain Catholics that think it’s their way or the highway. The Church goes on and will continue to go on. We have the infallible teaching of the Church to rely on. Pope Francis or any other pope will not make or break the Church. There are always going to be disgruntled folks one way or the other. We always get by. The other links offset all the grumbling.
 
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JM

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It's worth noting that there's a distinction to make between formal and material heresy. Essentially it means that a person says or does something heretical but they lack complete knowledge or understanding that it is, indeed, heresy. Now I realize that seems like a silly concept with the Pope because, well, he's the Pope. He ought to have the best knowledge of the Magisterium out of all the bishops, right? I'm not sure that's always the case. It's a known fact not all Popes have been theologians, some of them have just had different charisms - and Pope Francis charism has clearly been more focused on social issues.

To become a formal heretic one would need to propose a heretical concept deliberately while entirely knowing it's heretical. This is where that safeguard comes in because if Pope Francis ceremoniously sat in the Chair of Saint Peter tomorrow and declared that Jesus wasn't actually divine, well that's a formal heresy and he would in that very same moment cease to be Pope. It's like a forfeiture mechanism understood to essentially be built into the office of the Papacy.

Some Catholics accuse Pope Francis of heresy, but I think even for them it's very difficult to prove formal heresy because he's never tried to codify anything or make an infallible declaration (really almost no Pope has, at least not since V1).

If I haven't answered your question, I would close by saying that really the best remedy is for Catholics to understand what the Church actually teaches and believes. To be well guarded against heresy one ought to have formed their intellect with the teachings of the Church through the catechism (preferably the Roman Catechism AKA the Catechism of the Council of Trent). Then if a Pope were to commit material heresy everyday laymen wouldn't be as badly scandalized and if he were to commit formal heresy they could take comfort in knowing he essentially removed himself from the Papacy in doing so.
Yeah, I know...

That doesn't help the average Catholic attending a "Clown Mass" and being told by his priest that "it's fine, it's fine"
 
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pdudgeon

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...the pope became a heretic and fell away from the Roman Catholic faith? This of course is a hypothetical for Catholics, but what if a pope actively taught error and made changes to the catechism out of step with "the faith" what would happen? Would you still evangelize and encourage people to become Catholic?

I ask because I've been watching Roman Catholicism argue about Francis and his teachings online for years now. Some call him a heretic and others love him.

How do two Catholics that differ on such an important topic decide who is correct?

Thanks
Sorry, it's not a discussion that is allowed here.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Yeah, I know...

That doesn't help the average Catholic attending a "Clown Mass" and being told by his priest that "it's fine, it's fine"

Perhaps not, but then it becomes an issue of what are they willing to do about it?

There's always something we can do besides make excuses. We know what the Church is, we know what it teaches, we're not blind sheep.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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So there's an issue underneath this that is a misunderstanding of Papal authority

In a simplified nutshell from my time spent at place like Catholic Answers Forums and Byzantine Catholic Forums, the short answer that I recall was "even popes have to follow the Tradition to be legitimate", the Charism of Infallibility doesn't exist in a vacuum and there has been some situations with anitpopes that at times have kind of been sort of in the ball park.

Anyway is that about right? Minus the details that is. :)
 
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chevyontheriver

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Yeah, I know...

That doesn't help the average Catholic attending a "Clown Mass" and being told by his priest that "it's fine, it's fine"
The average Catholic would have the sense that a clown mass is too odd to want to endure again. Either to find a decent parish or to just leave. I’ve never actually run into such a mass but I have seen video of awful stuff.
 
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Michie

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Letting you know ahead of time, so you don't inadvertently get in trouble that you never intended.
Discussing theology is no longer safe here.
It’s completely safe to discuss theology within the Catholic lens here. If you want to debate it, there I’d always GT.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Letting you know ahead of time, so you don't inadvertently get in trouble that you never intended.
Discussing theology is no longer safe here.
As long as he isn’t sowing dissension here, and it would be a very fine line he is walking, I think it is marginally acceptable for him to post if he minds his p’s and q’s.
 
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pdudgeon

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Perhaps not, but then it becomes an issue of what are they willing to do about it?

There's always something we can do besides make excuses. We know what the Church is, we know what it teaches, we're not blind sheep.
Agreed, we aren't. But there are a lot of good, liturgically true Catholics who have been silenced, and tossed out of the Church for raising valid objections.
And some of those have become Saints, from the beginning of the Church, right up to present times.
 
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pdudgeon

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As long as he isn’t sowing dissension here, and it would be a very fine line he is walking, I think it is marginally acceptable for him to post if he minds his p’s and q’s.
Sowing the truth has never been "safe" in all the history of the Church.
Right from the beginning at the cross of Christ Himself, there has always been a price to pay, right up to the present time in the Catholic Church.
That's how we recognized our Saints. They spoke truth, and some were martyred for it, because they loved God more than their lives.
 
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