Q: On what days did they collect the Manna?

[Guide To The Bible]

Exodus 16
Manna and Quail

1The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. 2In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”

4Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

6So Moses and Aaron said to all the Israelites, “In the evening you will know that it was the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, 7and in the morning you will see the glory of the Lord, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?” 8Moses also said, “You will know that it was the Lord when he gives you meat to eat in the evening and all the bread you want in the morning, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we? You are not grumbling against us, but against the Lord.”

9Then Moses told Aaron, “Say to the entire Israelite community, ‘Come before the Lord, for he has heard your grumbling.’ ”

10While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the Lord appearing in the cloud.

11The Lord said to Moses, 12“I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Tell them, ‘At twilight you will eat meat, and in the morning you will be filled with bread. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.’ ”

13That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.

Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat. 16This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Everyone is to gather as much as they need. Take an omera for each person you have in your tent.’ ”

17The Israelites did as they were told; some gathered much, some little. 18And when they measured it by the omer, the one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little. Everyone had gathered just as much as they needed.

19Then Moses said to them, “No one is to keep any of it until morning.”

20However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.

21Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’ ”

24So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

Day 22 in month 2 was a Sabbath and day 22 in month 1 was a Sabbath, which can only be achieved if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day:

The Biblical month starts with the sighting of the new moon:

1 Samuel 20:18 + 24-27
18 Then Jonathan said to David, “Tomorrow is the New Moon feast [Day1] . You will be missed, because your seat will be empty.

24 So David hid in the field, and when the New Moon feast came [Day1], the king sat down to eat. 25 He sat in his customary place by the wall, opposite Jonathan, and Abner sat next to Saul, but David’s place was empty. 26 Saul said nothing that day, for he thought, “Something must have happened to David to make him ceremonially unclean, surely he is unclean.” 27 But the next day, the second day of the month, [Day2] David’s place was empty again. Then Saul said to his son Jonathan, “Why hasn’t the son of Jesse come to the meal, either yesterday or today?”

 

[Matthew 24 10]

Daily bread - everyday

 

[Dkh587]

They gathered it every morning. On the 6th day, they gathered twice as much so they would have enough for the 6th & 7th days.

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 16
Manna and Quail

1The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. ..

Day 22 in month 2 was a Sabbath and day 22 in month 1 was a Sabbath, which can only be achieved if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day:

The Biblical month starts with the sighting of the new moon:

I don't see any place where your text actually says that day 22 of the second month was a weekly Sabbath or that Day 22 of the first month was a weekly Sabbath... much less that both days were the weekly Sabbath, do you have such a text??

Is this something you are inferring?

 

[BobRyan]

Daily bread - everyday

6 days of the week... not 7

They had a reminder for 40 years of the "exact day" that was the 7th in God's point of view.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I don't see any place where your text actually says that day 22 of the second month was a weekly Sabbath or that Day 22 of the first month was a weekly Sabbath... much less that both days were the weekly Sabbath, do you have such a text??

Is this something you are inferring?

They collected the Manna on days 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 on month 2. This made day 22 of month 2 a Sabbath which was exactly the same pattern in month 1 after they left Egypt:

Exodus 12


The Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread

1The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 2“This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. 3Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamba for his family, one for each household. 4If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

12“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

Leviticus 23

1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the Lord, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.

The Sabbath

3“ ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.

The Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread

4“ ‘These are the Lord’s appointed festivals, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: 5The Lord’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month.6On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord’s Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. 8For seven days present a food offering to the Lord. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.’ ”

Offering the Firstfruits

9The Lord said to Moses, 10“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. 11He is to wave the sheaf before the Lord so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. 12On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the Lord a lamb a year old without defect, 13together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephaha of the finest flour mixed with olive oil—a food offering presented to the Lord, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hinb of wine. 14You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.

Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 16
Manna and Quail

1The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. ..

Day 22 in month 2 was a Sabbath and day 22 in month 1 was a Sabbath, which can only be achieved if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day:

The Biblical month starts with the sighting of the new moon:

I don't see any place where your text actually says that day 22 of the second month was a weekly Sabbath or that Day 22 of the first month was a weekly Sabbath... much less that both days were the weekly Sabbath, do you have such a text??

Is this something you are inferring?

They collected the Manna on days 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 on month 2. This made day 22 of month 2 a Sabbath which was exactly the same pattern in month 1 after they left Egypt:

So then yes... you inferred it -- that Exodus 16 text does not say it.

Neither does ANY text you quoted say this -

Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month

Is it your position that "God simply forgot to mention it"?

Because that short little 1 line statement would have been super easy to "mention"

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I don't see any place where your text actually says that day 22 of the second month was a weekly Sabbath or that Day 22 of the first month was a weekly Sabbath... much less that both days were the weekly Sabbath, do you have such a text??

Is this something you are inferring?



So then yes... you inferred it -- that Exodus 16 text does not say it.

Neither does ANY text you quoted say this -



Is it your position that "God simply forgot to mention it"?

Because that short little 1 line statement would have been super easy to "mention"

You've missed it. Look at verse 1. Day 15 was the day God said the Manna would fall the next day in the morning, this was therefore day 16 and for 6 days the Manna appeared. Therefore the Sabbath was on day 22 of month 2. You can't expect God to write His Bible the way you would like or might assume. Also what you are are suggesting is the equivalent to someone explaining the days of the week as if we are children learning it for the first time, the writer does not assume that young children would be reading these scriptures and that he would need to explain what day the Sabbath was on, as it was basic common knowledge. Like most people you assume the whole world has always used the Gregorian/Julian calendar and its continueous 7 day rolling week since the dawn of time without one shred of evidence. The evidence from the Bible and elsewhere overwhelmingly says otherwise.

 

[BobRyan]

You've missed it. Look at verse 1. Day 15 was the day God said the Manna would fall

Look at the details -- God did not say "manna will fall on the 15th each month and Sabbath will be on the 22 each month

Nor "Manna will fall on 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 each month"

Nor "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" --

You simply engage in massive inference and creative writing to quote that from your own proposal.

And "obviously" in an actual 7 day cycle - there can always be "some month" were 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 -- can be week days ... But that is very different from "every Month 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 are week days" which you merely "insert" via massive inference.

It is a not-so-subtle difference easy to see.

You can't expect God to write His Bible the way you would like or might assume.

He already did - and that includes NOT having even one text that says "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" - as we both know.

Also what you are are suggesting is the equivalent to someone explaining the days of the week as if we are children

Not it is not. What I am saying is that "every 7 days" Exodus 20:11 where "tomorrow is the 7th day" Ex 16 is very different from "EVERY tomorrow is the 7th day" and is very different from "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month".

Incredibly obvious.

I have no idea how that inserted "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" even gets off the ground!! How does anyone get to that point??

Like most people you assume the whole world has always used the Gregorian/Julian calendar

Like most people I assume the Jews and the Christians who have very little authority assigned to the "other group" did not "just so happen to agree" that Saturday is day seven and Sunday is day - 1. Rather this has been in place all along.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month

You're right, you know.

Like most people you assume the whole world has always used the Gregorian/Julian calendar and its continueous 7 day rolling week since the dawn of time without one shred of evidence.

If the month was based on lunar cycles (29.531 days to the month), then it does seem quite likely that their "week" was only secondarily counted by seven days, and primarily a division of four times per month, as you say. The scripture you cite does, indeed, seem to suggest it. That means that their seventh day of the week is not the same as our seventh day. If the counting of the Sabbath days resets with every lunar cycle, then we would be foolish to agonize over which precise day of the week is the true Sabbath.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had never considered it, before.

Just one more thing...if this is true, then why do I see the Orthodox Jews beginning their Sabbath every week at dusk on Friday? Did they lose sight of their own tradition?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Look at the details -- God did not say "manna will fall on the 15th each month and Sabbath will be on the 22 each month

Nor "Manna will fall on 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 each month"

Nor "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" --

You simply engage in massive inference and creative writing to quote that from your own proposal.

And "obviously" in an actual 7 day cycle - there can always be "some month" were 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 -- can be week days ... But that is very different from "every Month 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 are week days" which you merely "insert" via massive inference.

It is a not-so-subtle difference easy to see.



He already did - and that includes NOT having even one text that says "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" - as we both know.



Not it is not. What I am saying is that "every 7 days" Exodus 20:11 where "tomorrow is the 7th day" Ex 16 is very different from "EVERY tomorrow is the 7th day" and is very different from "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month".

Incredibly obvious.

I have no idea how that inserted "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" even gets off the ground!! How does anyone get to that point??



Like most people I assume the Jews and the Christians who have very little authority assigned to the "other group" did not "just so happen to agree" that Saturday is day seven and Sunday is day - 1. Rather this has been in place all along.

Okay, lets take this one step at a time. Here is verse 1:

Exodus 12
1 The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt.

Can you see and agree that they came to the desert of sin on day 15 of month 2 after leaving Egypt ?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

You're right, you know.



If the month was based on lunar cycles (29.531 days to the month), then it does seem quite likely that their "week" was only secondarily counted by seven days, and primarily a division of four times per month, as you say. The scripture you cite does, indeed, seem to suggest it. That means that their seventh day of the week is not the same as our seventh day. If the counting of the Sabbath days resets with every lunar cycle, then we would be foolish to agonize over which precise day of the week is the true Sabbath.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had never considered it, before.

Just one more thing...if this is true, then why do I see the Orthodox Jews beginning their Sabbath every week at dusk on Friday? Did they lose sight of their own tradition?

A BIG well done to you. About 99% of people don't get it straight away so you are obviously a cut above the rest. It's always great when I meet someone who gets it right away.

Now this is not a new teaching but as you suggest it has been largely forgotten by most Jews and Christians, because Jesus and all the Jews and Christians used the original lunar Sabbath calendar till it was force-ably removed from them step by step over several hundred years by successive Roman Emperors who implemented various laws and restrictions on the Jews and the Roman Empire at large, while the new Julian calendar was also being implemented. The current 7 day rolling week of the Julian calendar was a continuation of the ancient Roman calendar's 8 day week, which had had one day removed and transitioned on the 1st of January 45BC. Of course the Israelites had been using their own lunar Sabbath calendar for hundreds of years before the Romans even existed, and although they resisted any attempt by the Romans to force them to use the new Julian calendar, eventually they capitulated and in 359AD the modern Jewish calendar was invented as a compromise, which Incorporated the Julian 7 day rolling week.

This guy, Robert Aaron Richmond, is very good on this subject:

And this guy, John D Keyser – founder of Hope of Israel ministries:
From Sabbath to Saturday: The Story of the Jewish Rest Day

BTW; Sabbaths are very easy to calculate, you just need to know when the new moon can be seen from Jerusalem and with the internet that is easy to find out. The next Sabbath is actually tomorrow at sun set 17th March, and is day 29 of month 12 (Adar). This also means that the new religious year starts on the 18th March; Day 1 month 1 (Aviv/Nissan) - which is a new moon day of course.

 

[BobRyan]

You've missed it. Look at verse 1. Day 15 was the day God said the Manna would fall

Look at the details -- God did not say "manna will fall on the 15th each month and Sabbath will be on the 22 each month

Nor "Manna will fall on 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 each month"

Nor "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" --

You simply engage in massive inference and creative writing to quote that from your own proposal.

And "obviously" in an actual 7 day cycle - there can always be "some month" were 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 -- can be week days ... But that is very different from "every Month 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 are week days" which you merely "insert" via massive inference.

It is a not-so-subtle difference easy to see.

You can't expect God to write His Bible the way you would like or might assume.

He already did - and that includes NOT having even one text that says "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" - as we both know.

Also what you are are suggesting is the equivalent to someone explaining the days of the week as if we are children

Not it is not. What I am saying is that "every 7 days" Exodus 20:11 where "tomorrow is the 7th day" Ex 16 is very different from "EVERY tomorrow is the 7th day" and is very different from "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month".

Incredibly obvious.

I have no idea how that inserted "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" even gets off the ground!! How does anyone get to that point??

Like most people you assume the whole world has always used the Gregorian/Julian calendar

Like most people I assume the Jews and the Christians who have very little authority assigned to the "other group" did not "just so happen to agree" that Saturday is day seven and Sunday is day - 1. Rather this has been in place all along.

Okay, lets take this one step at a time. Here is verse 1:

Exodus 12
1 The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt.

Can you see and agree that they came to the desert of sin on day 15 of month 2 after leaving Egypt ?

Yes -

And can you agree with ---

And obviously in an actual 7 day cycle - there can always be some month were 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 -- can be week days ... But that is very different from "every Month 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 are week days" which you merely "insert" via massive inference."

 

[BobRyan]

If the month was based on lunar cycles (29.531 days to the month), then it does seem quite likely that their "week" was only secondarily counted by seven days, and primarily a division of four times per month,

BIG IF

Not one text in all of scripture supports that "IF"

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Look at the details -- God did not say "manna will fall on the 15th each month and Sabbath will be on the 22 each month

Nor "Manna will fall on 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 each month"

Nor "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" --

You simply engage in massive inference and creative writing to quote that from your own proposal.

And "obviously" in an actual 7 day cycle - there can always be "some month" were 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 -- can be week days ... But that is very different from "every Month 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 are week days" which you merely "insert" via massive inference.

It is a not-so-subtle difference easy to see.



He already did - and that includes NOT having even one text that says "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" - as we both know.



Not it is not. What I am saying is that "every 7 days" Exodus 20:11 where "tomorrow is the 7th day" Ex 16 is very different from "EVERY tomorrow is the 7th day" and is very different from "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month".

Incredibly obvious.

I have no idea how that inserted "Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29 each month" even gets off the ground!! How does anyone get to that point??



Like most people I assume the Jews and the Christians who have very little authority assigned to the "other group" did not "just so happen to agree" that Saturday is day seven and Sunday is day - 1. Rather this has been in place all along.



Yes -

And can you agree with ---

Please calm down, I'm merely trying to establish if you can see and agree that they came to the desert of sin on day 15 of month 2 after leaving Egypt? A simple yes or no would suffice:

Exodus 12
1 The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt.

 

[BobRyan]

Can you see and agree that they came to the desert of sin on day 15 of month 2 after leaving Egypt ?

Yes -

And can you agree with ---

And obviously in an actual 7 day cycle - there can always be some month were 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 -- can be week days ... But that is very different from "every Month 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 are week days" which you merely "insert" via massive inference."

Please calm down, I'm merely trying to establish if you can see and agree that they came to the desert of sin on day 15 of month 2 after leaving Egypt? A simple yes or no would suffice:

And I already agreed that it is yes...and that this is not the point being debated.

You saw that right?

(BTW I notice you did not answer the question put to you.. but I did already answer the question that you then choose to repeat)

My interest here is that I have never found a compelling argument for the position you advocate that ever "gets off the ground" so to speak. I can't figure out how it survives the light of day.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Yes -

And can you agree with ---




And I already agreed that it is yes...and that this is not the point being debated.

You saw that right?

(BTW I notice you did not answer the question put to you.. but I did already answer the question that you then choose to repeat)

My interest here is that I have never found a compelling argument for the position you advocate that ever "gets off the ground" so to speak. I can't figure out how it survives the light of day.

Okay so do you also see and agree that on the 15th God said the Manna would appear the next day on the 16th?:

Exodus 16
2 In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3 The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”
4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.” 6 So Moses and Aaron said to all the Israelites, “In the evening you will know that it was the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, 7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the Lord, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?” 8 Moses also said, “You will know that it was the Lord when he gives you meat to eat in the evening and all the bread you want in the morning, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we? You are not grumbling against us, but against the Lord.” 9 Then Moses told Aaron, “Say to the entire Israelite community, ‘Come before the Lord, for he has heard your grumbling.’ ”
10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the Lord appearing in the cloud. 11 The Lord said to Moses, 12 “I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Tell them, ‘At twilight you will eat meat, and in the morning you will be filled with bread. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.’ ” 13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Everyone is to gather as much as they need. Take an omera for each person you have in your tent.’ ” 17 The Israelites did as they were told; some gathered much, some little. 18 And when they measured it by the omer, the one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little. Everyone had gathered just as much as they needed. 19 Then Moses said to them, “No one is to keep any of it until morning.” 20 However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

They gathered it every morning. On the 6th day, they gathered twice as much so they would have enough for the 6th & 7th days.

Yes but on what days of the month did the Manna appear?