Putin's challenge to Western democracy?

mindlight

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Biden has portrayed this conflict as one between autocracy and democracy. Putin sees it more in terms of a Russian Orthodox dream of a greater Russia versus a corrupted Western world and its notion of freedom based on shopping and promiscuity.

Has freedom in the West been sabotaged by its misuse to the point that it no longer holds the moral legitimacy it once did? Especially against God-focused totalitarianism. Has the church forgotten that for most of its history it has lived with undemocratic regimes? Is freedom past its sell-by date tarnished by the following:

1) False religion and godlessness
2) Sexual deviance, immorality, and identity politics
3) Abortion
4) Social injustice: inequality of health care provision, the divide between rich and poor, social immobility
5) A self-serving and selective view of international law that accepts violations of sovereignty in the case of Kosovo but not in the case of Ukraine. That accepts drone strikes by the West that killed civilians to be unavoidable tragedies while civilian deaths in Ukraine are war crimes.
6) Poor stewardship of the world and its natural resources.

Putin seems to believe that God gave Russia Ukraine and that a 'greater Russia' is a part of a spiritual vision of Russian Orthodoxy superior to the Western alternative. Is that true? Or is this in fact about Russian bitterness, humiliation following defeat in the Cold War, and also Putin's own power ambitions? The media are clear that Putin is the bad guy but is this in fact a clash of worldly systems with different strengths and weaknesses and levels of corruption? Are we the baddies too?
 

Zbnigniew

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American "democracy" has been back-doored by its own government and private technological institutions by breaking the mind of its citizens with propaganda, inappropriate contentography, and high fructose corn syrup. The only way forward would be to collectively unshackle ourselves from the vile parasitic ruling class, but that would require people to come to terms with the reality that we are all modern day slaves, just with golden collars and lovely feather pillows. Unfortunately most people I know are ardent defenders of their own captors. Not to mention lovers of sin and depravity. There is little question God has forsaken this country.
 
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Robban

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Biden has portrayed this conflict as one between autocracy and democracy. Putin sees it more in terms of a Russian Orthodox dream of a greater Russia versus a corrupted Western world and its notion of freedom based on shopping and promiscuity.

Has freedom in the West been sabotaged by its misuse to the point that it no longer holds the moral legitimacy it once did? Especially against God-focused totalitarianism. Has the church forgotten that for most of its history it has lived with undemocratic regimes? Is freedom past its sell-by date tarnished by the following:

1) False religion and godlessness
2) Sexual deviance, immorality, and identity politics
3) Abortion
4) Social injustice: inequality of health care provision, the divide between rich and poor, social immobility
5) A self-serving and selective view of international law that accepts violations of sovereignty in the case of Kosovo but not in the case of Ukraine. That accepts drone strikes by the West that killed civilians to be unavoidable tragedies while civilian deaths in Ukraine are war crimes.
6) Poor stewardship of the world and its natural resources.

Putin seems to believe that God gave Russia Ukraine and that a 'greater Russia' is a part of a spiritual vision of Russian Orthodoxy superior to the Western alternative. Is that true? Or is this in fact about Russian bitterness, humiliation following defeat in the Cold War, and also Putin's own power ambitions? The media are clear that Putin is the bad guy but is this in fact a clash of worldly systems with different strengths and weaknesses and levels of corruption? Are we the baddies too?

One could start by comparing the National Anthem of the USSR with National Anthem of the Federation of Russia.

The former is a tribute to Lenin and communism besides using "Fatherland".

The latter is more about the Motherland and freedom.

"Wide spaces for dreams and for living are opened for us by the coming years."

"From the southern seas to the polar lands,
spread our forests and fields,
you are unique in the world,
one of a kind."
 
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A_Thinker

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The media are clear that Putin is the bad guy but is this in fact a clash of worldly systems with different strengths and weaknesses and levels of corruption? Are we the baddies too?
We're all baddies, ... but in this case it's a matter of degree and kind. Russia's system (as led by Putin) leads to deprivation, control, and death. America's system has, for better or worse, been one which, at least offers a dream of a better life for its people.

If Putin wants to be seen as the head of a God-led movement, ... he had best stop trying to poison and imprison his naysayers ...
 
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Robban

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We're all baddies, ... but in this case it's a matter of degree and kind. Russia's system (as led by Putin) leads to deprivation, control, and death. America's system has, for better or worse, been one which, at least offers a dream of a better life for its people.

If Putin wants to be seen as the head of a God-led movement, ... he had best stop trying to poison and imprison his naysayers ...

America has nothing to envious of.
 
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A_Thinker

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America has nothing to envious of.
Right ... that's why millions flock here annually.

From ... Key findings about U.S. immigrants

AUGUST 20, 2020
ABBY BUDIMAN

FT_17.04.10_immigrant_featured.jpg

Immigrants listen to a speech as they wait to become U.S. citizens at a naturalization ceremony in Los Angeles. (Mark Ralson/AFP/Getty Images)

The United States has more immigrants than any other country in the world. Today, more than 40 million people living in the U.S. were born in another country, accounting for about one-fifth of the world’s migrants. The population of immigrants is also very diverse, with just about every country in the world represented among U.S. immigrants.

GMD_20.08.15_US-Immigrant-Stat-Portraits_Home-page-04.png

View interactive charts
and detailed tables on
U.S. immigrants.

Pew Research Center regularly publishes statistical portraits of the nation’s foreign-born population, which include historical trends since 1960. Based on these portraits, here are answers to some key questions about the U.S. immigrant population.

How many people in the U.S. are immigrants?
The U.S. foreign-born population reached a record 44.8 million in 2018. Since 1965, when U.S. immigration laws replaced a national quota system, the number of immigrants living in the U.S. has more than quadrupled. Immigrants today account for 13.7% of the U.S. population, nearly triple the share (4.8%) in 1970. However, today’s immigrant share remains below the record 14.8% share in 1890, when 9.2 million immigrants lived in the U.S.

 
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Maria Billingsley

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Biden has portrayed this conflict as one between autocracy and democracy. Putin sees it more in terms of a Russian Orthodox dream of a greater Russia versus a corrupted Western world and its notion of freedom based on shopping and promiscuity.

Has freedom in the West been sabotaged by its misuse to the point that it no longer holds the moral legitimacy it once did? Especially against God-focused totalitarianism. Has the church forgotten that for most of its history it has lived with undemocratic regimes? Is freedom past its sell-by date tarnished by the following:

1) False religion and godlessness
2) Sexual deviance, immorality, and identity politics
3) Abortion
4) Social injustice: inequality of health care provision, the divide between rich and poor, social immobility
5) A self-serving and selective view of international law that accepts violations of sovereignty in the case of Kosovo but not in the case of Ukraine. That accepts drone strikes by the West that killed civilians to be unavoidable tragedies while civilian deaths in Ukraine are war crimes.
6) Poor stewardship of the world and its natural resources.

Putin seems to believe that God gave Russia Ukraine and that a 'greater Russia' is a part of a spiritual vision of Russian Orthodoxy superior to the Western alternative. Is that true? Or is this in fact about Russian bitterness, humiliation following defeat in the Cold War, and also Putin's own power ambitions? The media are clear that Putin is the bad guy but is this in fact a clash of worldly systems with different strengths and weaknesses and levels of corruption? Are we the baddies too?
Secularism is ungodly. Those who try mixing the two or try to claim righteousness merely because they use "God" in their rhetoric for their own purposes are far from truth. True Christianity has no boarders and no political affiliation. It is the Kingdom of God that rules over them with Jesus Christ of Nazareth as their KING. Blessings.
 
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The Liturgist

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Putin sees it more in terms of a Russian Orthodox dream of a greater Russia versus a corrupted Western world and its notion of freedom based on shopping and promiscuity.

Again, as I have said elsewhere, “greater Russia” is not a Russian Orthodox dream; the largest religion in Ukraine and the canonical Eastern Orthodox Church therein is already the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphrius, an autonomous church under the umbrella, or to use the exact Eastern Orthodox term of art, omophorion, of the Moscow Patriarchate.

There is no solid proof Putin is even Russian Orthodox. The only religious belief we know he subscribed to was atheism, a prerequisite for membership in the Communist Party of the USSR, and only the most reliable and well connected Communists would be considered for a job as important as a Colonel in the KGB in charge of the critically important Berlin station during the even more critically important and uncertain period as Erich Honnecker’s dictatorship in the DDR wavered and then collapsed spectacularly in 1989, and the process of German reunification was initiated, events of vital significance to Soviet interests.

Literally all we know about Putin’s religion at present is that he attends the Divine Liturgy at St. Savior’s Cathedral and certain other extremely high profile churches on Christmas, Easter and special occasions. Which frankly is not enough to either prove or disprove his Eastern Orthodoxy, since one can put on a show of piety, but it is not my place to judge his faith.

However, what this means is that your speculation about Putin’s alleged “Russian Orthodox Dream” is pure speculation.

Putin seems to believe that God gave Russia Ukraine and that a 'greater Russia' is a part of a spiritual vision of Russian Orthodoxy superior to the Western alternative. Is that true?

Categorically not! Let’s consider a few facts:

  • There are in Russia actually three Russian Orthodox Churches, including two Old Believer jurisdictions, alongside the Moscow Patriarchate, which also operates a number of Old Rite parishes.
  • A substantial number of clergy in the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate have criticized the war without reprisal, and neither Patriarch Kyrill nor anyone else has made any unambiguous statement of support for the war.
  • Likewise, in the wake of prior Russian military confrontation with Georgia, which resulted in the formation of the schismatic South Ossetian and Abkhazian Orthodox Churches, the Moscow Patriarchate has refused to recognize them, insisting they belong to the canonical territory of the Georgian Orthodox Church.
  • In the US, aside from a mere handful of parishes in the “Patriarchal Diocese” that are part of the Moscow Patriarchate, a majority of Russian Orthodox churches including all of those in Alaska, which was originally evangelized by the Russian church before the United States acquired it in the 1860s, are part of the Orthodox Church in America, which was granted autocephaly (complete independence) by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970, and which also has Romanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Ruthenian, and ethnically mixed, as well as mainly convert parishes.
  • The second largest Russian Orthodox church in the US is the autonomous Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Most international parishes, including nearly all outside of Europe and the US, such as those in Africa and South America, are part of this church, as the name implies. Like OCA, it is also highly ethnically diverse, with large numbers of American converts, and converts in the UK and other countries, and also large numbers of Ukrainian members.
  • The Moscow Patriarchate itself is extremely multi-ethnic, hosting a vast array of nationalities in Russia such as Karelians, Siberians, Tatars, Altaics, and indeed migrants from other former Eastern Block countries including Germans, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Moldovans, Romanians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Belarussians, Georgians, and indeed, Ukrainians, in large numbers, and is the umbrella for not only the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church but the canonical Orthodox Churches of Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bessarabia, Japan, China, and Korea, as well as the principal Christian church in the Muslim majority Central Asian republics formerly part of the USSR, and has successfully evangelized and continues to evangelize Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tajiks, and the Kyrgyz people to the fullest extent possible under their often oppressive regimes.
  • The Moscow Patriarchate maintains a Department of External Church Relations headed by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, to manage ecumenical relations with other churches within and outside the Eastern Orthodox Communion. These include particularly close relations with the OCA, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Georgian Orthodox Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Romanian Orthodox Church, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Church of Greece and the Church of Cyprus.
  • Outside of the Eastern Orthodox Communion, the Moscow Patriarchate enjoys very good relations with the Roman Catholic Church, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and the Anglican Communion, particularly the Church of England.
  • The Moscow Patriarch depended on Billy Graham to help it maintain the faith in the Soviet Union when preaching and catechesis were restricted and prohibited respectively, for he, due to his celebrity status, was able miraculously to get permission from the Soviet authorities to preach publicly, something the Moscow Patriarchate could only dream of, and on each of his trips to the USSR Billy Graham obtained a blessing from the Patriarch to preach. The attitude of the Moscow Patriarchate has been one of extreme gratitude aforementioned Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev visited Billy Graham repeatedly in his elder years, including on his deathbed.
  • Finally, and most importantly, racism is officially condemned in the Eastern Orthodox Church as the heresy of ethnophyletism, as the notorious neo-Nazi Matthew Heimbach found out when he was excommunicated shortly after joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church, when the parish priest Fr. Peter Jon Gilquist discovered he was a racist. He further infuriated Orthodox Christians around the world by sacrilegiously attacking another racist using an Eastern Orthodox cross. The full details of his excommunication and subsequent sacrilege are in this article.

In conclusion, as I have said before, the greatest number of victims of this terrible conflict are associated with the Moscow Patriarch and the Bishop of Rome, for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and the Russian Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church, are the largest Christian denominations among their respective peoples. This gives the conflict a horrific, fratricidal dimension which horrifies the Eastern Orthodox community.
 
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mindlight

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Again, as I have said elsewhere, “greater Russia” is not a Russian Orthodox dream; the largest religion in Ukraine and the canonical Eastern Orthodox Church therein is already the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphrius, an autonomous church under the umbrella, or to use the exact Eastern Orthodox term of art, omophorion, of the Moscow Patriarchate.

There is no solid proof Putin is even Russian Orthodox. The only religious belief we know he subscribed to was atheism, a prerequisite for membership in the Communist Party of the USSR, and only the most reliable and well connected Communists would be considered for a job as important as a Colonel in the KGB in charge of the critically important Berlin station during the even more critically important and uncertain period as Erich Honnecker’s dictatorship in the DDR wavered and then collapsed spectacularly in 1989, and the process of German reunification was initiated, events of vital significance to Soviet interests.

Literally all we know about Putin’s religion at present is that he attends the Divine Liturgy at St. Savior’s Cathedral and certain other extremely high profile churches on Christmas, Easter and special occasions. Which frankly is not enough to either prove or disprove his Eastern Orthodoxy, since one can put on a show of piety, but it is not my place to judge his faith.

However, what this means is that your speculation about Putin’s alleged “Russian Orthodox Dream” is pure speculation.



Categorically not! Let’s consider a few facts:

  • There are in Russia actually three Russian Orthodox Churches, including two Old Believer jurisdictions, alongside the Moscow Patriarchate, which also operates a number of Old Rite parishes.
  • A substantial number of clergy in the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate have criticized the war without reprisal, and neither Patriarch Kyrill nor anyone else has made any unambiguous statement of support for the war.
  • Likewise, in the wake of prior Russian military confrontation with Georgia, which resulted in the formation of the schismatic South Ossetian and Abkhazian Orthodox Churches, the Moscow Patriarchate has refused to recognize them, insisting they belong to the canonical territory of the Georgian Orthodox Church.
  • In the US, aside from a mere handful of parishes in the “Patriarchal Diocese” that are part of the Moscow Patriarchate, a majority of Russian Orthodox churches including all of those in Alaska, which was originally evangelized by the Russian church before the United States acquired it in the 1860s, are part of the Orthodox Church in America, which was granted autocephaly (complete independence) by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970, and which also has Romanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Ruthenian, and ethnically mixed, as well as mainly convert parishes.
  • The second largest Russian Orthodox church in the US is the autonomous Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Most international parishes, including nearly all outside of Europe and the US, such as those in Africa and South America, are part of this church, as the name implies. Like OCA, it is also highly ethnically diverse, with large numbers of American converts, and converts in the UK and other countries, and also large numbers of Ukrainian members.
  • The Moscow Patriarchate itself is extremely multi-ethnic, hosting a vast array of nationalities in Russia such as Karelians, Siberians, Tatars, Altaics, and indeed migrants from other former Eastern Block countries including Germans, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Moldovans, Romanians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Belarussians, Georgians, and indeed, Ukrainians, in large numbers, and is the umbrella for not only the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church but the canonical Orthodox Churches of Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bessarabia, Japan, China, and Korea, as well as the principal Christian church in the Muslim majority Central Asian republics formerly part of the USSR, and has successfully evangelized and continues to evangelize Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tajiks, and the Kyrgyz people to the fullest extent possible under their often oppressive regimes.
  • The Moscow Patriarchate maintains a Department of External Church Relations headed by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, to manage ecumenical relations with other churches within and outside the Eastern Orthodox Communion. These include particularly close relations with the OCA, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Georgian Orthodox Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Romanian Orthodox Church, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Church of Greece and the Church of Cyprus.
  • Outside of the Eastern Orthodox Communion, the Moscow Patriarchate enjoys very good relations with the Roman Catholic Church, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and the Anglican Communion, particularly the Church of England.
  • The Moscow Patriarch depended on Billy Graham to help it maintain the faith in the Soviet Union when preaching and catechesis were restricted and prohibited respectively, for he, due to his celebrity status, was able miraculously to get permission from the Soviet authorities to preach publicly, something the Moscow Patriarchate could only dream of, and on each of his trips to the USSR Billy Graham obtained a blessing from the Patriarch to preach. The attitude of the Moscow Patriarchate has been one of extreme gratitude aforementioned Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev visited Billy Graham repeatedly in his elder years, including on his deathbed.
  • Finally, and most importantly, racism is officially condemned in the Eastern Orthodox Church as the heresy of ethnophyletism, as the notorious neo-Nazi Matthew Heimbach found out when he was excommunicated shortly after joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church, when the parish priest Fr. Peter Jon Gilquist discovered he was a racist. He further infuriated Orthodox Christians around the world by sacrilegiously attacking another racist using an Eastern Orthodox cross. The full details of his excommunication and subsequent sacrilege are in this article.

In conclusion, as I have said before, the greatest number of victims of this terrible conflict are associated with the Moscow Patriarch and the Bishop of Rome, for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and the Russian Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church, are the largest Christian denominations among their respective peoples. This gives the conflict a horrific, fratricidal dimension which horrifies the Eastern Orthodox community.

Interesting reply thanks.

Regarding whether Putin is an atheist. He must have been as a Colonel in the KGB. But people have come to faith from worse backgrounds. His favorite reading list includes mainly atheist authors for whom the skies are closed regarding faith.

I am not suggesting that Orthodox churches are directly supporting this war. Also I share your horror at the fratricidal nature of this fight between Christians. There are great spiritual dangers in such conflicts and it is a poor witness.

Putin's vision of Russia includes Orthodoxy and he sees this as a part of the historical Russian soul. Russias attempt to avoid civilian casualties and claim to be defending innocents in the Donbas is clearly phrased with an Orthodox audience in mind. It is possible that Putin sees the church as a tool of social manipulation. I hope for his sake that is not the case.

From Putins perspective the splits between Ukraine and Russia are artificial accidents of history. He wants unity between the two because he does not regard Ukraine as Sovereign. He initially seemed prepared to enforce that unity by invasion but now his ambitions have been tested by reality. I wonder if that would extend to revoking the dispensation of autonomy between the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches.

As an Orthodox Christian I doubt if you are happy with the spiritual state of the USA. Could Putin be regarded as defending the church by resisting the decadent hand of a liberal world order. Or is he harming the church by the ways in which he is trying to force these legitimate critiques into the service of his agenda?
 
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Robban

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Interesting reply thanks.

Regarding whether Putin is an atheist. He must have been as a Colonel in the KGB. But people have come to faith from worse backgrounds. His favorite reading list includes mainly atheist authors for whom the skies are closed regarding faith.

I am not suggesting that Orthodox churches are directly supporting this war. Also I share your horror at the fratricidal nature of this fight between Christians. There are great spiritual dangers in such conflicts and it is a poor witness.

Putin's vision of Russia includes Orthodoxy and he sees this as a part of the historical Russian soul. Russias attempt to avoid civilian casualties and claim to be defending innocents in the Donbas is clearly phrased with an Orthodox audience in mind. It is possible that Putin sees the church as a tool of social manipulation. I hope for his sake that is not the case.

From Putins perspective the splits between Ukraine and Russia are artificial accidents of history. He wants unity between the two because he does not regard Ukraine as Sovereign. He initially seemed prepared to enforce that unity by invasion but now his ambitions have been tested by reality. I wonder if that would extend to revoking the dispensation of autonomy between the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches.

As an Orthodox Christian I doubt if you are happy with the spiritual state of the USA. Could Putin be regarded as defending the church by resisting the decadent hand of a liberal world order. Or is he harming the church by the ways in which he is trying to force these legitimate critiques into the service of his agenda?

In his younger days on his way home from school,

he would stop at a house where a Jewish family lived,

he was always welcomed in, he enjoyed their company

and loved hearing their stories.

And that in the days of Soviet, could well have been risky.

So just what he thinks is his secret,


only God knows the secrets of the heart.
 
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The Liturgist

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Putin's vision of Russia includes Orthodoxy and he sees this as a part of the historical Russian soul.

We don’t know that. For all we know this is a ploy to reinstate some kind of Stalinist Communism by the back door.


I wonder if that would extend to revoking the dispensation of autonomy between the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches.

Putin has absolutely no authority to do that. Only the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople has ever revoked the autonomy of a church under their omophorion (the Russian Orthodox Exarchy in Europe, which was then received into the Moscow Patriarchate). This unprecedented action came on the heels of a bold declaration by a senior EP Archbishop that they have the sole right to grant and revoke autocephaly, which is completely false, just like their claims that the 2016 Council of Crete would be an “ecumenical council binding on all Orthodox Churches,” which resulted in several of the largest churches boycotting it.

Basically, what autonomy means in the context of Eastern Orthodoxy is simply that when Metropolitan Onuphrius dies, retires or otherwise reaches the end of his term in office, the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church gets to approve his successor. Autonomous churches are canonically distinct entities, with their own Holy Synods, so for example, a priest who serves in ROCOR or the UOC must obtain a canonical release to serve in the MP proper, just like how a priest in the Church of Montengro has to obtain a release to serve in the Serbian Orthodox Church, or a priest in Patriarchate of Jerusalem must obtain a release to join the Church of Sinai. They also own their own property. Indeed, the Orthodox Church of Finland, which is autonomous and under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is an official state church, along with the Lutheran Church of Finland, and is known for being pretty radical as Eastern Orthodox churches go, even to the extent of using the Gregorian Calendar even for setting the date of Pascha (Easter), for the convenience of the Finnish government in terms of coordinating things with the larger Lutheran church.

And seeing as revoking the Autonomy would result in a mass departure to the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s OCU (which claims to be autocephalous, but the Tomos of Autocephaly grants unprecedented authority to Constantinople, to the extent that I and many others regard the OCU as autonomous rather than autocephalous), which is trespassing on the canonical territory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and also the schismatic UOC-Kiev Patriarchate, revoking the autonomy of the Ukrainian church is literally the last thing the Holy Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate would do.

I expect the Moscow Patriarchate would if need be grant Metropolitan Onuphrius and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church a Tomos of Autocephaly rather than risk the takeover of Eastern Orthodoxy in Ukraine by the EP and canonically irregular churches; they did after all grant the OCA autocephaly in 1970 (ROCOR at the time claimed to be de jure the legitimate Russian Orthodox Church and did not reconcile with the MP until 2007, by which time they were sure it was rid of communists).

As an Orthodox Christian I doubt if you are happy with the spiritual state of the USA. Could Putin be regarded as defending the church by resisting the decadent hand of a liberal world order. Or is he harming the church by the ways in which he is trying to force these legitimate critiques into the service of his agenda?

As a generic Orthodox Christian presently involved in a Congregational ministry I stand with my Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters in support of immediate peace and regard the current situation with pure horror; I am unable to support either Putin or Zelenskyy at this time as both have engaged in horrible conduct leading up to and during the war.
 
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FireDragon76

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We don’t know that. For all we know this is a ploy to reinstate some kind of Stalinist Communism by the back door.




Putin has absolutely no authority to do that. Only the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople has ever revoked the autonomy of a church under their omophorion (the Russian Orthodox Exarchy in Europe, which was then received into the Moscow Patriarchate). This unprecedented action came on the heels of a bold declaration by a senior EP Archbishop that they have the sole right to grant and revoke autocephaly, which is completely false, just like their claims that the 2016 Council of Crete would be an “ecumenical council binding on all Orthodox Churches,” which resulted in several of the largest churches boycotting it.

Basically, what autonomy means in the context of Eastern Orthodoxy is simply that when Metropolitan Onuphrius dies, retires or otherwise reaches the end of his term in office, the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church gets to approve his successor. Autonomous churches are canonically distinct entities, with their own Holy Synods, so for example, a priest who serves in ROCOR or the UOC must obtain a canonical release to serve in the MP proper, just like how a priest in the Church of Montengro has to obtain a release to serve in the Serbian Orthodox Church, or a priest in Patriarchate of Jerusalem must obtain a release to join the Church of Sinai. They also own their own property. Indeed, the Orthodox Church of Finland, which is autonomous and under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is an official state church, along with the Lutheran Church of Finland, and is known for being pretty radical as Eastern Orthodox churches go, even to the extent of using the Gregorian Calendar even for setting the date of Pascha (Easter), for the convenience of the Finnish government in terms of coordinating things with the larger Lutheran church.

And seeing as revoking the Autonomy would result in a mass departure to the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s OCU (which claims to be autocephalous, but the Tomos of Autocephaly grants unprecedented authority to Constantinople, to the extent that I and many others regard the OCU as autonomous rather than autocephalous), which is trespassing on the canonical territory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and also the schismatic UOC-Kiev Patriarchate, revoking the autonomy of the Ukrainian church is literally the last thing the Holy Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate would do.

I expect the Moscow Patriarchate would if need be grant Metropolitan Onuphrius and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church a Tomos of Autocephaly rather than risk the takeover of Eastern Orthodoxy in Ukraine by the EP and canonically irregular churches; they did after all grant the OCA autocephaly in 1970 (ROCOR at the time claimed to be de jure the legitimate Russian Orthodox Church and did not reconcile with the MP until 2007, by which time they were sure it was rid of communists).



As a generic Orthodox Christian presently involved in a Congregational ministry I stand with my Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters in support of immediate peace and regard the current situation with pure horror; I am unable to support either Putin or Zelenskyy at this time as both have engaged in horrible conduct leading up to and during the war.

Putin is an Orthodox Christian, at least nominally. Putin was secretly baptized by his grandmother in the 1950's, and he attends church more often than many Russians or Orthodox in general (at the OCA church I went to... there were many that only went to church a few times a year. I've also known some Orthodox Christians that hardly ever attend church at all).

Putin and the Orthodox Church: how his faith shapes his politics
 
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The Liturgist

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Putin is an Orthodox Christian, at least nominally.

I’m not disputing that.

Putin was secretly baptized by his grandmother in the 1950's,

Maybe. He would surely have had to convincingly renounced that faith beyond suspicion to be not only a Communist, but a Communist given the rank of Colonel and posted to the vital Berlin station, which was one of the most critical KGB assignments at the time.

and he attends church more often than many Russians or Orthodox in general

I hope so, but I only see him at the major televised liturgies.

(at the OCA church I went to... there were many that only went to church a few times a year.

Your subjective and anecdotal experience of the OCA is sharply at odds with my subjective and anecdotal experience. Particularly in that Orthodox priests like regular attendance, and at OCA and ROCOR parishes this is particularly the case, as is frequent confession.

I've also known some Orthodox Christians that hardly ever attend church at all).

That’s hardly unique to Eastern Orthodoxy. Mainline Protestant churches usually do not get a full house except at Christmas and Easter.


You know, I hope Putin is an Orthodox Christian, and that he has a pious Father Confessor as that article claims. I really do. I have no way of knowing.

However this conflict has got to stop, and right now, while I am praying for Putin and Zelenskyy and all those in civil authority, my main concern is for the congregations of the Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Roman and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which are bearing the brunt of this conflict, and who have to contend not only with Neo-Nazis but also Islamic extremists and thermobaric weapons, among other reported horrors.

And frankly, neither Russia nor Ukraine is comparable to the Free World in terms of Freedom, given the rampant corruption and incompetence and self-serving nature of those who predominate in those systems.

So right now my prayer is that the peace talks are successful. I find it ironic they are moderated by Turkey, a despotic Islamic regime that makes Ukraine and Russia look utopian in many respects, which somehow has been allowed to stay in NATO despite its aggression in Cyprus (I think the disastrously failed attempt to recruit Georgia, which prompted a Russian invasion and the sinking of the Georgian Navy, was an attempt to get an alternate partner on the Black Sea, but since Bulgaria and Romania are now in the EU, I don’t see the relevance other than the issue of the Straits of Marmara and the Bosphorus). The gold standard for a NATO member should be countries like the US, Canada, the UK and Norway: consistently reliable and with high quality volunteer militaries consistently focused on strategic defense.
 
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FireDragon76

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That’s hardly unique to Eastern Orthodoxy. Mainline Protestant churches usually do not get a full house except at Christmas and Easter.

I used to be Lutheran and it's very common in that church as well.

You know, I hope Putin is an Orthodox Christian, and that he has a pious Father Confessor as that article claims. I really do. I have no way of knowing.

I see no reason it couldn't be true- other unsavory characters have been Orthodox Christians. Ivan the Terrible personally bludgeoned his own son to death in a fit of rage. Even Joseph Stalin is rumored to have gone to confession once during WWII. Putin could be cut from the same type of cloth.
 
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The Liturgist

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You know Stalin, when he was known as Iosip Jugashveli, was a seminarian in the Georgian Orthodox Church, right? He was expelled or resigned as he became radicalized by communists around that time.

I would also note the canonical penances for bludgeoning your son to death can be very severe, up to and including prohibition from communion for 30 years except in extremis. And the Orthodox Church venerates St. Nicholas of Pskov, a “fool for Christ” who managed to persuade Ivan the Terrible to repent from his proposed destruction of Pskov because he falsely suspected the residents of treason.

8F84C206-B61A-4E6F-B9BB-B2C98E442A40.jpeg
 
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Tom 1

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Biden has portrayed this conflict as one between autocracy and democracy. Putin sees it more in terms of a Russian Orthodox dream of a greater Russia versus a corrupted Western world and its notion of freedom based on shopping and promiscuity.

Has freedom in the West been sabotaged by its misuse to the point that it no longer holds the moral legitimacy it once did? Especially against God-focused totalitarianism. Has the church forgotten that for most of its history it has lived with undemocratic regimes? Is freedom past its sell-by date tarnished by the following:

1) False religion and godlessness
2) Sexual deviance, immorality, and identity politics
3) Abortion
4) Social injustice: inequality of health care provision, the divide between rich and poor, social immobility
5) A self-serving and selective view of international law that accepts violations of sovereignty in the case of Kosovo but not in the case of Ukraine. That accepts drone strikes by the West that killed civilians to be unavoidable tragedies while civilian deaths in Ukraine are war crimes.
6) Poor stewardship of the world and its natural resources.

Putin seems to believe that God gave Russia Ukraine and that a 'greater Russia' is a part of a spiritual vision of Russian Orthodoxy superior to the Western alternative. Is that true? Or is this in fact about Russian bitterness, humiliation following defeat in the Cold War, and also Putin's own power ambitions? The media are clear that Putin is the bad guy but is this in fact a clash of worldly systems with different strengths and weaknesses and levels of corruption? Are we the baddies too?

It’s hardly a surprise that people tend to squander freedom on frivolous things, or that some of them will then blame ‘the elites’ for their crappy lives. Chasing some chimera of ‘greatness’ as a response to that is equally stupid and meaningless. Forward focused nations like Iceland, Finland and NZ offer a much more realistic path to a sustainable future than the kind of schoolboy fantasy sold by Putin and his Orthodox sock puppets.
 
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The Liturgist

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Forward focused nations like Iceland, Finland and NZ offer a much more realistic path to a sustainable future than the kind of schoolboy fantasy sold by Putin and his Orthodox sock puppets.

What “Orthodox sock puppets”? I know of no Orthodox clergy who have explicitly endorsed the war (Patriarch Kyrill’s remarks could in fact be interpreted in an anti-war context), and many Ukrainian Orthodox priests in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is an autonomous part of the Russian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate, have condemned the war, with no repercussions.

Also, if the Moscow Patriarchate was really in Putin’s pocket, as some claim, they would surely recognize the autocephaly of the Abkhazian and South Ossetian Orthodox churches or incorporate them into their own church. Instead they regard them as schismatics intruding in the canonical territory of the Georgian Orthodox Church.
 
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I know of no Orthodox clergy who have explicitly endorsed the war (Patriarch Kyrill’s remarks could in fact be interpreted in an anti-war context)

Anti-war ? That's awful. Doesn't Kirill know that could land him to jail for up to 15 years ? Maybe someone should tell him ?
 
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