Putin for Europe

[andy b]

Oh. Oh my.

I'll try to keep this civil, but I *do* feel that you've got to live in some bizarre alternate universe to describe either the murderous dictator from Russia or the callous billionaire con man from New York a "Christian ally".


What is this assessment based on? Their stance on LGBT*? It certainly cannot be their social policies, their racism (nope, not gonna use "white nationalism" as some watered down euphemism for what is clearly the same old brownshirt), as these so clearly clash with EVERYTHING the Bible has to say on these matters. And it also cannot be their personal conduct, which could hardly be less Christian if they made an active and deliberate effort to violate Christian values. As a business man, a private person AND a head of state, Trump has acted against pretty much everything Christianity teaches and stands for. But this is a thread about Putin, so let's go there.

Why are Americans against Putin? Probably for the same reasons as many Europeans:
he is a fascist "strong man" whose opponents more often than not get "randomly" murdered in the streets or die under mysterious circumstances. If the Russian government even tries to genuinely mask their involvement, that is.
Remember the former spy who was murdered with Polonium in the UK, roughly a decade ago?
His murderer has been identified by the investigation: a certain Andrey Lugovoy. Guess what happened with that guy?
He's holding a political office in Russia now, AND he was rewarded an Order of Merit by Putin in 2015.

This alone should suffice to make sure that every non-fascist rejects Putin as a murderous autocrat, but US-Americans have even more reason to do so, as the Russian meddling in the US presidential election is undisputed at this point.

So I take it you don't like him .........don't sweat it Jane I do

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Hero's are seldom what they seem .......Putin saved the Christans of Syria ( fact )I know we live in an age where standing up for Christians under persecution isn't hip ....I mean there are more important things like Japan killing whales or fracking I mean it's only the middle East thet are not really Christans ......Putin has done more Christans in the world than any other person .....but like I say cowards will find any verse to hide behind while defenders of faith won't ..........

That's how tyrants sell their actions to the gullible: by declaring themselves champions of the People.

Putin is allied with the Assad Regime, and they are anything but champions of Syriac Christians.
With good will, you might call them the lesser enemy, but virtually everything in that region is too complicated to untangle easily.
Take the Kurds, for example: they are the fiercest allies of everyone battling the IS - yet also targeted Christians in the Syrian civil war.

 

[andy b]

That's how tyrants sell their actions to the gullible: by declaring themselves champions of the People.

Putin is allied with the Assad Regime, and they are anything but champions of Syriac Christians.
With good will, you might call them the lesser enemy, but virtually everything in that region is too complicated to untangle easily.
Take the Kurds, for example: they are the fiercest allies of everyone battling the IS - yet also targeted Christians in the Syrian civil war.

There is well documented evidence that the Kurds actually defended Christians and yazidis in Syria from Isis ....Putin for PM

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

There is well documented evidence that the Kurds actually defended Christians and yazidis in Syria from Isis ....Putin for PM

60% of all churches destroyed in the Syrian civil war were bombed by the Assad regime (which is backed by Putin).
As for the Kurds: read the reports. It's more complex than that.

 

[Robban]

60% of all churches destroyed in the Syrian civil war were bombed by the Assad regime (which is backed by Putin).
As for the Kurds: read the reports. It's more complex than that.

If this is true then, why?

Could it be ISIS were using them?

If Russia had not heeded to Bashar al Assad,s call for help,

How would it look in Syria today?

Russia went straight to work, first in destroying the oil buisness that ISIS and going, bringing in finances,

There are really too many accounts and events to count.

But like after ww2, hardly anyone gives Russia credit for destroying the Nazi vermin.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

But like after ww2, hardly anyone gives Russia credit for destroying the Nazi vermin.

Good comparison!
I give them credit for that. But I also remember that Joseph Stalin was every inch as bad as Hitler, incarcerating 20 million people and killing roughly half of them in gulags (= concentration camps).
It's great that he helped to bring down the nazi regime (at least after his former partner in crime attacked him), but that does NOT make him a good guy.

Same with Putin. Granted, he's no blunt instrument like the "Man of Steel". As a former KGB-agent with ties to the Russian mafia, he's more of a mix between Vito Corleone and a Bond villain. Charming, magnanimous to his friends - and very, very dangerous.

 

[Robban]

Good comparison!
I give them credit for that. But I also remember that Joseph Stalin was every inch as bad as Hitler, incarcerating 20 million people and killing roughly half of them in gulags (= concentration camps).
It's great that he helped to bring down the nazi regime (at least after his former partner in crime attacked him), but that does NOT make him a good guy.

Same with Putin. Granted, he's no blunt instrument like the "Man of Steel". As a former KGB-agent with ties to the Russian mafia, he's more of a mix between Vito Corleone and a Bond villain. Charming, magnanimous to his friends - and very, very dangerous.

It is no secret what took place under Josef Stalin.

Today it is possible to buy a kosher pizza in Moskva.

Times change, even if many do not see it.

As for dangerous, most dangerous in this world is propaganda, it is mostly based on slander,

which is the most dangerous weapon, it reaches where no other weapon can reach.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It is no secret what took place under Josef Stalin.

Today it is possible to buy a kosher pizza in Moskva.

The problem with Putin isn't anti-semitism. (Nor was it the primary problem with Stalin, prior to the so-called "Doctors' Plot" of 1952-53.)
The problem with Putin is that he's a strongman.

 

[grasping the after wind]

And that excuses Putin for his evil how exactly? If I spend my life torturing and murdering innocent people, and then one day by my actions incidentally save someone, and after I go on torturing and murdering am I excused and held morally inculpable for all the torturing and murdering I've done and continue to do?

I just don't think it works that way.

As a Christian I cannot turn a blind eye to evil and glorify murderous dictators and fascists. I am held to the standard of Christ, and it can't be any other way for me.

-CryptoLutheran

Wait a minute.

I believe Christ's love works exactly that way. One is excused and held morally inculpable through Grace . Let those that are without sin cast the stones. Judge not lest ye be judged. I"m not saying you should accept Putin as so me kind of do gooder as the OP is attempting to do, but don't change Lutheran theology just to show your contempt for one sinner.

 

[Robban]

The problem with Putin isn't anti-semitism. (Nor was it the primary problem with Stalin, prior to the so-called "Doctors' Plot" of 1952-53.)
The problem with Putin is that he's a strongman.

The blind man with a blind leader dog who at every street corner,
the dog stops and looks up at the one he is leading,
and asks,
"Which way?

That is a problem.

Russia is a vast nation with vast reources,

and many who would like to get their hands on them.

By hook or by crook.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wait a minute.

I believe Christ's love works exactly that way. One is excused and held morally inculpable through Grace . Let those that are without sin cast the stones. Judge not lest ye be judged. I"m not saying you should accept Putin as so me kind of do gooder as the OP is attempting to do, but don't change Lutheran theology just to show your contempt for one sinner.

I'm not. For one, our justification doesn't remove the temporal consequences of our actions; if I commit adultery, though in my baptism I have the full assurance of Christ's work and God's gracious forgiveness, that doesn't stop the fact that I have committed adultery and have hurt my wife and my marriage. If I kill, I will be held accountable by the civil authorities and go to prison for my actions.

As a Lutheran you must know the difference between Coram Deo and Coram Mundo/Hominibus. Yes, before God, we have been perfectly justified as we have received the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as pure and unmerited gift; so that we are now reckoned perfect in Christ and Christ alone--the judgment of the Law on account of our sin has been pardoned by the gracious loving kindness of God in Christ. We are forgiven, and we have the sure and certain promise of life and peace with God in Jesus, by the adoption we have received. That is the Coram Deo. The Gospel in the dichotomy of Law and Gospel. But there is still the Coram Mundo, us before the world; and here in this world we are called to righteous lives of obedience toward others in love, and there are temporal, real consequences to our actions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[andy b]

Well if the Taliban take back Afghanistan when the USA leave my guess is that eastern Europe will be in desperate need of sir Putin's help.........the west's campaign in the middleEast has been a complete disaster and the regions a complete mess ......

 

[grasping the after wind]

I'm not. For one, our justification doesn't remove the temporal consequences of our actions; if I commit adultery, though in my baptism I have the full assurance of Christ's work and God's gracious forgiveness, that doesn't stop the fact that I have committed adultery and have hurt my wife and my marriage. If I kill, I will be held accountable by the civil authorities and go to prison for my actions.

As a Lutheran you must know the difference between Coram Deo and Coram Mundo/Hominibus. Yes, before God, we have been perfectly justified as we have received the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as pure and unmerited gift; so that we are now reckoned perfect in Christ and Christ alone--the judgment of the Law on account of our sin has been pardoned by the gracious loving kindness of God in Christ. We are forgiven, and we have the sure and certain promise of life and peace with God in Jesus, by the adoption we have received. That is the Coram Deo. The Gospel in the dichotomy of Law and Gospel. But there is still the Coram Mundo, us before the world; and here in this world we are called to righteous lives of obedience toward others in love, and there are temporal, real consequences to our actions.

-CryptoLutheran

I just thought that your previous post needed the clarification you have now given it. I would add that , though works do not justify and cannot overcome the justification we receive from Christ, one may be led to wonder about the sincerity of Christian commitment a person shows when one commits such atrocities as Putin has and shows no remorse or repentance. It brings to mind the following

Matthew 22-23
…22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

 

[Robban]

I just thought that your previous post needed the clarification you have now given it. I would add that , though works do not justify and cannot overcome the justification we receive from Christ, one may be led to wonder about the sincerity of Christian commitment a person shows when one commits such atrocities as Putin has and shows no remorse or repentance. It brings to mind the following

Matthew 22-23
…22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Out of curosity, what are the atrocities you are talking about?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Out of curosity, what are the atrocities you are talking about?

The one that comes most to mind is poisoning of an opponent. Then there is supporting countries that are sponsors of terrorism like Syria and Iran.

 

[Robban]

The one that comes most to mind is poisoning of an opponent. Then there is supporting countries that are sponsors of terrorism like Syria and Iran.

If you have no proof, you are a three time murderer,

You are murdering the one you are talking about.
You are murdering yourself.
You are murdering the one to whom you are telling it to.

So is the rule for all gossip,

 

[grasping the after wind]

If you have no proof, you are a three time murderer,

You are murdering the one you are talking about.
You are murdering yourself.
You are murdering the one to whom you are telling it to.

So is the rule for all gossip,

And where is the proof that someone is gossiping?

 

[Robban]

And where is the proof that someone is gossiping?

The answer is in my previous post.

"If you cannot prove it...."

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

the west's campaign in the middleEast has been a complete disaster and the regions a complete mess ......

I guess this is the only thing we can agree on completely.

 

[Uber Genius]

No joke brother I have spoken to Christians in Syria and they say Russia saved them from genocide ....that's no joke

Putin ordered Russian military to join Assad in his genocide of Syrian people on 30 September 2015. His Russian developed biological weapons are those used in the attacks. They are dropped by russian planes flown by russian pilots.

12 Su-25ground attack aircraft, 12 Su-24 interdictor aircraft,[101][102] 6 Sukhoi Su-34 medium bombers[103][104] and 4 Su-30 multirole combat aircraft and 15 helicopters (including Mi-24 attack helicopters)

Special forces troops are on the ground as well.

see Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War - Wikipedia:

Obama did nothing. Trump ordered a strike against Syrian forces using chemical weapons.

I have no idea how you can look at Putin who is the biggest despot and put anyone other than maybe Assad, Kim Jong-un, Nick ("I LUV Ocasio") Maduro next to him.