Purpose of Punishment

[fragmentsofdreams]

Some see punishment as something as intrinsically required in response to injustice. I disagree. I believe punishment should happen only if it serves some purpose. This purpose might be to rehabilitate. It can be to deter future injustice. It can be to prevent the person from being able to commit further injustice. However, it should not exist for its own sake.

I think this stems from a different view of justice. Some believe that justice involves paying a debt that is created by injustice. I believe that justice involves reconciling relationships damaged by injustice. Often, this will not be fair, but insisting on things being fair often leads to ongoing division.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Some see punishment as something as intrinsically required in response to injustice. I disagree. I believe punishment should happen only if it serves some purpose. This purpose might be to rehabilitate. It can be to deter future injustice. It can be to prevent the person from being able to commit further injustice. However, it should not exist for its own sake.

I think this stems from a different view of justice. Some believe that justice involves paying a debt that is created by injustice. I believe that justice involves reconciling relationships damaged by injustice. Often, this will not be fair, but insisting on things being fair often leads to ongoing division.

Hi. Thanks for making this topic.

In my opinion, 'punishment' is to some extent necessary---but not for its own sake. (as you so nicely put) I think there needs to be some form of "rehabilitation" in this 'punishment'--but also I do not think it is right to merely say to say a murderer--"Oh well we don't believe in punishment--so take some anger management classes and you're rehabilitated". There has to be some measure of consequences for those who violate laws and kill, rape, rob, and other things and honestly this is kind of the attitude I perceive for people who do not believe in 'punishment' of criminals. Its almost as if the victim can go jump off a ledge for all some people care--we have to go bananas over what's happening to this criminal and his/her rights take primacy to such an extreme that in our culture the victim obviously did something to deserve what happened and the criminal is put on a pedestal. Now, I'm very much anti-death penalty so I don't believe in that kind of 'punishment' but I am not much opposed to people paying their ' debt' for what they've done while in a correctional facility.

As a victim of crime--I'm sorry but I do not think punishment or justice involves reconciling the relationship damaged between myself and my ex when he decided to shake and beat our son to death. I mean whose good is this for? To make the killer feel as if he/she has been forgiven or to make them feel better in some way for what they've done? What purpose does your reconciliation serve if I may ask? For me this would not make me feel any better because as much as I've moved on from what happened, there is no reconciliation to be made. I don't want to understand why he did it. I care but I don't care to hear his 'reasons' or excuses so reconciling this broken relationship is out of the question.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Hi. Thanks for making this topic.

In my opinion, 'punishment' is to some extent necessary---but not for its own sake. (as you so nicely put) I think there needs to be some form of "rehabilitation" in this 'punishment'--but also I do not think it is right to merely say to say a murderer--"Oh well we don't believe in punishment--so take some anger management classes and you're rehabilitated". There has to be some measure of consequences for those who violate laws and kill, rape, rob, and other things and honestly this is kind of the attitude I perceive for people who do not believe in 'punishment' of criminals. Its almost as if the victim can go jump off a ledge for all some people care--we have to go bananas over what's happening to this criminal and his/her rights take primacy to such an extreme that in our culture the victim obviously did something to deserve what happened and the criminal is put on a pedestal. Now, I'm very much anti-death penalty so I don't believe in that kind of 'punishment' but I am not much opposed to people paying their ' debt' for what they've done while in a correctional facility.

As a victim of crime--I'm sorry but I do not think punishment or justice involves reconciling the relationship damaged between myself and my ex when he decided to shake and beat our son to death. I mean whose good is this for? To make the killer feel as if he/she has been forgiven or to make them feel better in some way for what they've done? What purpose does your reconciliation serve if I may ask? For me this would not make me feel any better because as much as I've moved on from what happened, there is no reconciliation to be made. I don't want to understand why he did it. I care but I don't care to hear his 'reasons' or excuses so reconciling this broken relationship is out of the question.

To clarify, sometimes what has been broken cannot be repaired. Sometimes preventing further damage is the best that we can hope for. However, we should always hope to restore both the victims and the offender to what they ought to be if possible.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

To clarify, sometimes what has been broken cannot be repaired. Sometimes preventing further damage is the best that we can hope for. However, we should always hope to restore both the victims and the offender to what they ought to be if possible.

Preventing further damage would work for me. Also since my ex does have severe bi-polar it would be a good thing for him to receive adequate therapy and medication so that he can/could be restored to a sense of "normalcy" and then perhaps intense therapy for when he really realizes what he has done. I don't think he quite understands the reality of what was done (being that as far as I know he wasn't too medicated while in county and who knows if he's actually getting proper medication now)

Thanks for clarification.

 

[Mling]

I don't see "punishment" as being a meaningful concept at all. That or "deserving." The underlying idea behind both of them seems to be that there is some mechanism in the universe that keeps track of what people have done in the past, codifies it, and repays it in kind.

Huh...actually, that's karma.

But, I just can't imagine that god or any divine accountant is typing away at a little adding machine going, "Let's see...he committed 3, level 4 Bads, but he had 2 level 2 Goods, also. So that's 12 units of Bad, minus 4 units of Good...he deserves 8 units of punishment. So that could be...40 lashes with a rubber hose, 10 years imprisonment or 5 years hard labor.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

What does make sense is "Here we have somebody who has X, Y and Z problems--lack of impulse control, mental illness, general dislike of society and intention to do harm to all he sees. If it is possible to turn him into a contributing member of society, let's do so. If it is possible for him to make amends with those he has hurt and repair the damage he has done, let's find a way. If not, then we need to find a way to protect the rest of society from him."

THAT is a practical mindset.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

So in your idea of society what would be the consequence for people like my ex who have bi-polar disorder (or some other disorder) but who know right from wrong and kill their child? (or do anything else) He doesn't seem to want to do anything but harm as he has been moved 3 different times and tried to blackmail me into going to see him in prison or else I would not get my pictures of my son back (he also got mad about my victim's impact statement and said he should have been yelling at me..whatever)

Do we just pat them on the head and put them in Charter and once they finish just let them out? That does not work. There has to be some sort of consequence for not doing something other than they are going to get put in a mental institute or half-way house or something. And what makes you think in cases of murder there is ANY way of making amends with the victims or their families or that there is a way to repair the damage?

Can you please clarify what you propose?

 

[Teshi]

I'm also of the view that punishment is pointless.

Rehabilitation and reparations should be the first objectives, with containment for the safety of others as a backup plan in cases were rehabilitation is not achieved.

 

[Adammi]

Some see punishment as something as intrinsically required in response to injustice. I disagree. I believe punishment should happen only if it serves some purpose. This purpose might be to rehabilitate. It can be to deter future injustice. It can be to prevent the person from being able to commit further injustice. However, it should not exist for its own sake.

I think this stems from a different view of justice. Some believe that justice involves paying a debt that is created by injustice. I believe that justice involves reconciling relationships damaged by injustice. Often, this will not be fair, but insisting on things being fair often leads to ongoing division.

I don't believe in punishment. I think that rehabilitation, education, and discipline should be the only reasons for "punishment". We've corrupted justice to be nothing more than a nice word for revenge.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

I don't believe in punishment. I think that rehabilitation, education, and discipline should be the only reasons for "punishment". We've corrupted justice to be nothing more than a nice word for revenge.

And what of those who do not take or do not try to amend themselves and their behavior.

I'm really trying to understand what you guys really think should happen. I mean heck, I'm no fan of the current system but I do think that there has to be a consequence for what is done--and if they (the 'offender') does not want to be "rehabilitated" then what?

I wonder if it is more likely the term of 'punishment' that we don't like and gives us problems or the thought of a person being punished (sentenced to jail for example) for what offense they have done?

 

[Adammi]

And what of those who do not take or do not try to amend themselves and their behavior.

I'm really trying to understand what you guys really think should happen. I mean heck, I'm no fan of the current system but I do think that there has to be a consequence for what is done--and if they (the 'offender') does not want to be "rehabilitated" then what?

I wonder if it is more likely the term of 'punishment' that we don't like and gives us problems or the thought of a person being punished (sentenced to jail for example) for what offense they have done?

I don't think that we have ever truly tried to rehabilitate anyone. I don't think that we will know what would happen until we try it.

 

[Mling]

So in your idea of society what would be the consequence for people like my ex who have bi-polar disorder (or some other disorder) but who know right from wrong and kill their child? (or do anything else) He doesn't seem to want to do anything but harm as he has been moved 3 different times and tried to blackmail me into going to see him in prison or else I would not get my pictures of my son back (he also got mad about my victim's impact statement and said he should have been yelling at me..whatever)

Do we just pat them on the head and put them in Charter and once they finish just let them out? That does not work. There has to be some sort of consequence for not doing something other than they are going to get put in a mental institute or half-way house or something. And what makes you think in cases of murder there is ANY way of making amends with the victims or their families or that there is a way to repair the damage?

Can you please clarify what you propose?

I would do a stint of therapy to see if there is *any* way he could be (re)-habilitated. If not, then that would be in the category of "keep the rest of society safe from him."

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

I would do a stint of therapy to see if there is *any* way he could be (re)-habilitated. If not, then that would be in the category of "keep the rest of society safe from him."

Thank you for you clarifying things. I understand now.

 

[Mling]

Thank you for you clarifying things. I understand now.

Oh good. Yeah, I'm not a complete idealist. I do realize that certain people are just never going to be rehabilitated; will not, can not, and have no desire to make amends.

But I think the goal of any action we, as a society, take, should be focused forwards, not backwards. We should not be looking at the past and deciding what the person "deserves" but looking at the situation, as it exists now, and either finding a way to make it work in the future, or deciding that it won't and moving on.

 

[QuakerOats]

Oh good. Yeah, I'm not a complete idealist. I do realize that certain people are just never going to be rehabilitated; will not, can not, and have no desire to make amends.

But I think the goal of any action we, as a society, take, should be focused forwards, not backwards. We should not be looking at the past and deciding what the person "deserves" but looking at the situation, as it exists now, and either finding a way to make it work in the future, or deciding that it won't and moving on.

I agree.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

^^Yep. That's pretty much what I came here to say.

Please keep in mind that my step-father is retired from law enforcement and corrections. He worked in a state prison system. He himself holds the conviction that its inhabitants are scum, that they don't deserve anything comfortable, and there is no such thing as violating their "rights," since they ceased to have any when they committed their crime.

Nor does he believe in prison ministry or conversions: he claims that any inmate who claims to have found Jesus or been saved is only trying to avoid further punishment.

He is also very racially prejudiced.

He and I don't agree. And it frightens me to think he is an example of a prison system *insider.*

In the case of theft and the like, I believe in restitution and community service. In the case of violent crime, I think that's what the jails should be for. Keeping society safe from people who are going to rape, assault, murder, etc.

I also believe that education and therapy are VITAL for those who will be rehabilitated. For those who will not be, well that's fine, stay there in your cell. But I agree with what someone else pointed out--taking education out of a prison system is a big mistake.

This said, there is a point to be made about free medical services in the prisons that are not found outside. There *are* people who commit crimes on purpose, so they can go to prison and get surgery they cannot otherwise afford. Now, this is just plain wrong. Is eliminating the free medical services the solution? Of course not.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

What does make sense is "Here we have somebody who has X, Y and Z problems--lack of impulse control, mental illness, general dislike of society and intention to do harm to all he sees. If it is possible to turn him into a contributing member of society, let's do so. If it is possible for him to make amends with those he has hurt and repair the damage he has done, let's find a way. If not, then we need to find a way to protect the rest of society from him."

THAT is a practical mindset.

well spoken. Provided in the last case, the preceding questions get revisited every so often because hey, you never know. Things could change. So could people.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

^^Yep. That's pretty much what I came here to say.

Please keep in mind that my step-father is retired from law enforcement and corrections. He worked in a state prison system. He himself holds the conviction that its inhabitants are scum, that they don't deserve anything comfortable, and there is no such thing as violating their "rights," since they ceased to have any when they committed their crime.

Nor does he believe in prison ministry or conversions: he claims that any inmate who claims to have found Jesus or been saved is only trying to avoid further punishment.

He is also very racially prejudiced.

He and I don't agree. And it frightens me to think he is an example of a prison system *insider.*

Sure as heck hope you don't agree with that line of thinking. Wow. Talk about the most effective argument ever for thinking Satan to be more powerful than God ...

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Oh good. Yeah, I'm not a complete idealist. I do realize that certain people are just never going to be rehabilitated; will not, can not, and have no desire to make amends.

word to the wise: people generally bes more open to owning up, making amends, and pursuing change, when they bes understood, believed in, encouraged, et.c most people bes not going to drop their pride as long as they think there bes a conspiracy on the part of some to humiliate them before the entire universe all at once JUST to prove a freaking POINT....

 

[Multi-Elis]

I believe we can contribute to our own good or bad luck. I mean, If you do something wrong, you are creating a situation that is unfavorable to yourself (people's resentment, lack of divine blessing) and when you do something right, you create for yourself a very favorable situation (friends, thankfulness, divine blessing, joy, etc).

So I see some things as being a matter of brining upon yourself good or bad luck that can be rationally explained.

I do hate punishment in work areas. If I had been punished for all the stupid mistakes I made in my internship over the summer, it would have been unjust! And yet it happens all the time.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Authority, through misuse and abuse, thereby abrogates any and all rightful claim.