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Purgatory

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by jhjhh, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Catholic theology causes several questions. Since it on one hand recognizes salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, it goes on to require works. If the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient, why do we need the sacrament of reconciliation? If I have repented then my sin has been covered by the blood of Jesus. I have no need to confess my sin to be forgiven. Then beyond that not only would the Catholic Church require me to confess to a priest but I must also complete a penance, at that point I am assured that my sins are forgiven and then even that is insufficient because I then have to spend time in Purgatory to atone for the same sins. It is not called atonement but functionally that is exactly what it is even though it is referred to as changing my spirit to conform more closely with what it should be. Now I am familiar with the explanation used for Purgatory that if my wife forgives me, I am forgiven but I should still bring her flowers. Attempting to correlate Purgatory with buying flowers is not convincing. Regarding entering Heaven without being pure, let me point out that if I accept Jesus as my savior I am covered by His blood and I have His righteousness. That should be more than sufficient I would think. Once I am in Heaven and have received the Beatific Vision I have perfect salvation, I am as pure as I am ever going to get. Then there is the somewhat questionable history of Purgatory, trying to link it to the Jewish pre Christian Hades seems to fail the test since Jesus liberated those who believed in the Messiah and awaited Him. There is also the changes in description of Purgatory in Church doctrine, initially it was much like hell but only lasted a limited period of time, then indulgences were sold by the Church to reduce the amount of time of suffering in Purgatory, you could buy them for yourself or for loved ones, when the Church got called out on this practice by Luther and others, the doctrine changed to not being like hell and not being for a specific period of time reducible by the donations of cash or property. I am writing an editorial here without specific citations but I would welcome discussion of other views. Please understand I have no problem or issue with Catholics or the Catholic Church but I do have a few issues with Catholic Theology.
     
  2. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don’t know about purgatory but making captivity captive is what Christ does. This experience might be somewhat like purgatory.
     
  3. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No none.

    The purgatory lie has made tons
    of money for some churches .
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Que?
     
  5. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am affraid purgatory only exists so that sinners can continue sinning knowing that they will have a chance to purify in purgatory. This is an unnecessary step therefore will not be in the Gospel. Blessings
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    According to the teaching, Purgatory is for people who are already assured of salvation. But they need some work first. ;)
     
  7. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    this post confirms what I said in another thread concerning why Catholics and Orthodox dont debate as much as Catholics and Protestants.

     
  8. lordjeff

    lordjeff Active Member

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    There is maybe a quasi-reference in one of Paul's epistles but I think it was a Catholic invention. I do not believe in it & it led to leave the church. The reason I don't believe in it is what one of my former work colleagues told me (she was a former nun). And this makes sense: if JC did it on the cross he did it once & for all & for all time. If one has to then add a "and, if, or but," then it takes away the potency of the event & the event becomes meaningless because it conveys the message that this is only temporal. No human being, not then, not now, will ever be w/o blemish or be perfect. Human beings by condition live in tension with each other. So if one has to walk around in fear all the time that every little error they make is no longer atoned & that the soul stays in purgatory, then when does the soul awake from purgatory. Well probably never. Honestly how many persons are prayinng for all the souls there-none. The Sun has another 5 billion years left on its clock so from what I see there is no immortality. AKA if you have to add another clause to the whole Easter thing that it's dependent on something, well as I said humans will never be perfect. It's easier to think in a positive sense that there is a positive outcome. Protestants don't believe in the doctrine & neither does the Eastern Orthodox. It is a man-made convention & that should tell one right there. It is also a bit contradictory. Ever been to a Catholic wake. As you approach the deceased you see flowers & candles & a rosary & a cross & sometimes even a cue card that says something wishing a good sendoff to paradise. If they're going to purgatory, then the good sendoff has just been nullified; they're simply a corpse & that's it. What's the point? Now the question of those several human beings across the span of civilizaiton who have exhibited such diabolical behavior, what is their destiny I don't know. And God would say why do you care? I.e. don't. Hell has often simply described as isolation from God therefore isolation from anything that God has created. This realm is reserved for the worst of the worst. The way I defined it & it differs from religion to religion (as I said all humans are imperfect), is what is diabolical is something via free will that tries to usurp the power & wisdom of God. I.e. there are certain things that God alone is in charge of & anything that really tries to disturb the balance of that omnipotence, will be met with God's vengeance.
     
  9. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ won’t stop refining God’s elect as long as they live this life.
     
  10. Bob Crowley

    Bob Crowley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And in the next.
     
  11. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Purgatory assaults, among other things, the doctrine of justification, requiring additional purification of a saved person after death. Jesus's righteousness, however, is imputed to the born-again believer (Romans 3:21-22; Romans 4:21-24; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Galatians 2:16-21, etc.) and his righteousness is perfect - as it must be in order for the believer to be accepted by God in the "Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6). Having "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14) by faith in him as Saviour and Lord, the believer stands before God perfectly justified and thereby adopted by God as a joint-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17; Ephesians 2:6). There is absolutely no need, then, for purgatory, the very idea of which is a slander upon the atoning work of Christ and the divine perfection of his righteousness.

    1 Corinthians 3:12-15 in no way supports the idea of purgatory, being a discussion rather of the testing of one's teaching, or "building," that is supposed to rest upon Christ the "foundation," as the teaching of Paul and Apollos did, and the rewards of labouring in such teaching (or loss thereof). If one does not labour in teaching as Paul and Apollos did, resting everything that is taught upon Christ, one's teaching efforts will be "burned up," and one's reward for teaching forfeited, though one will not oneself be destroyed. Nothing in this passage at all suggests purgatorial purifying of a saved person. Nothing.

    Purgatory is a Roman Catholic fiction, without ground in Scripture.
     
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  12. Lybrah

    Lybrah Active Member

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    I personally think purgatory was a ploy made by the church back in medieval times to trick people into thinking they could buy their way to heaven. The church got rich off of this. The more money you gave, the less years you would spend in purgatory. Jesus already suffered for our sins so we wouldn’t have to. We are made righteous THROUGH Him.
     
  13. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother? Supporter

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    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
  14. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    I know you have a very good grasp of Theology, we should discuss this subject some time. Maybe a new thread.
     
  15. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother? Supporter

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    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
  16. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Wow how did I miss that. OK I will post my concerns here then, thanks.
     
  17. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    I enjoy discussions such as this. It reminds of an Easter sermon I once heard in a liberal church in which the preacher likened faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ to faith in Camelot. I suppose that if one can believe in Camelot, then Purgatory (not to mention Limbo) is hardly out of the question.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    All you have to do is ask yourself if you believe 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 is fulfilled or not?

    If you assert it remains unfulfilled, then you MUST become Roman Catholic on the doctrine of Purgatory, for the Hades of 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 does not become part of Hell until Revelation 20:12-15!

    For futurists, this means Hades ("Sheol" in hebrew and "Purgatorio" in Latin) is still in existence as a pre-judgement holding place for souls, exactly as the Catholic Church teaches.
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    We may agree with you about that being the current stance of the Roman Catholic Church. However, it was not so during the previous approximately 500 years of church teaching.

    Because modern Catholics no longer believe what their church taught about both Limbo and Purgatory, both of these were put on the chopping block by their church.

    Limbo was summarily denied, reversing what she had taught to generations of her members. With Purgatory, the church was in a "bind." That's because Purgatory had been defined by a church council, so she couldn't just say "Oops. Not true after all." As a result, the church kept the term but changed the meaning totally.
     
  20. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is quite true. The complete change of meaning has resulted in amazing vagueness and confusion within and outside of the Catholic Church.
     
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