Purgatory - thoughts?

Cis.jd

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Post some scriptures of Jesus describing punishment for sins that does not result in loss of salvation.
I can't use Paul or other apostles anymore, it has to be Jesus now? Matt 5:26 (yes, I know there are protestant sites in google about this).

Notice that I gave actual references from Greek scholars and even the scriptures original Greek text word for word to support my position. Your defense gives absolutely no reference at all. You might’ve done just as well to just say “nuh uh”. Your problem is you believe what your told. You have not studied any of this. That’s why your quotes are copy paste from Catholic websites. If you knew anything about the Greek you would be able to see that the information I provided is correct.

Greek scholars? You used the wrong greek word, period. And what defense are you talking about, i responded to you first with the greek and your counter was the wrong greek word, so what is there to defend against, your own context? You are obviously very stressed out from this, just by looking how your sentences has gotten all jumbled up along with questions and vocabulary use that is so far off from anything you've quoted.

I don't believe on what I am told, I believe based on reason/science as an important component to the rule of faith along with Scripture and Apostolic tradition. That is why I gave you real life analogies and circumstances so you can think. You know that saying those Christian marches or the villagers from the Salem Witch trials getting auto-cleaned is injustice -- it's the only thing that makes sense especially when we are talking about a Just and Righteous Judge.. yet you don't want to admit that.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I can't use Paul or other apostles anymore, it has to be Jesus now? Matt 5:26 (yes, I know there are protestant sites in google about this).



Greek scholars? You used the wrong greek word, period. And what defense are you talking about, i responded to you first with the greek and your counter was the wrong greek word, so what is there to defend against, your own context? You are obviously very stressed out from this, just by looking how your sentences has gotten all jumbled up along with questions and vocabulary use that is so far off from anything you've quoted.

I don't believe on what I am told, I believe based on reason/science as an important component to the rule of faith along with Scripture and Apostolic tradition. That is why I gave you real life analogies and circumstances so you can think. You know that saying those Christian marches or the villagers from the Salem Witch trials getting auto-cleaned is injustice -- it's the only thing that makes sense especially when we are talking about a Just and Righteous Judge.. yet you don't want to admit that.

Good luck my friend if you don’t know what a Greek interlinear Bible is then I can’t help you. If you prefer to take the Roman church’s word over the Greek church’s word when it comes to interpreting Greek then there’s no point in this discussion. You simply are not willing study to find the truth and frankly I’m done wasting my time.
 
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Cis.jd

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Good luck my friend if you don’t know what a Greek interlinear Bible is then I can’t help you. If you prefer to take the Roman church’s word over the Greek church’s word when it comes to interpreting Greek then there’s no point in this discussion. You simply are not willing study to find the truth and frankly I’m done wasting my time.
I do know what a Greek Interlinear Bible, next time when you want to talk about Greek make sure you use the right word, especially when it's been pointed out to you. Otherwise what use is your "greek"?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I do know what a Greek Interlinear Bible, next time when you want to talk about Greek make sure you use the right word, especially when it's been pointed out to you. Otherwise what use is your "greek"?

I copied and pasted from the Greek interlinear Bible. If you would’ve bothered to take the time to look at a Greek interlinear Bible you would’ve noticed that.
 
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Cis.jd

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I copied and pasted from the Greek interlinear Bible. If you would’ve bothered to take the time to look at a Greek interlinear Bible you would’ve noticed that.
I noticed after my first bite on your constant request to go into 1 Cor 3:15 was responded with a smiley face. It's like "yes.. i can finally get him here" of a reaction. It's as if you've made all this google-research on it that you were finally going to put "your training to use" by delivering this argument, but even this was a botch. I know writing tl;dr is useless at this point since you really are not interested in debating. You are not someone who is willing to be objective and actually study the opposing case because look at how sloppy your way of sentencing your words became after your Col 1:22 went out the window.

You can read this, which is a response to James White to save me the time.
Purgatory: Refutation of James White (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
 
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Albion

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The most important thing to keep in mind when reading such replies as this one from Catholic Answers is that the explanation, the proof, is a series of rationalizations. That is to say that something may be suggested by a verse or passage in Scripture, or by a number of them, but Purgatory--a particular and very specific explanation that the Church created in the Late Middle Ages--is just one possible one.

It's like arguing that there must be a God because nothing is created by nothing, there must be a first cause, the stars testify to his existence, whatever...and then saying "So that proves that all things were created by the Great Turtle who will turn non-believers into Corn Flakes unless rabbits are sacrificed to him."

Yeh, there may be a reason for believing in a God, but that doesn't make this scenario about a God be true.

And that is exactly what the proofs of Purgatory amount to.

See the article, the link, where it says that there is Scriptural evidence that there will be some sort of purification after death. Why would that have to be the elaborate and complicated place or state of being that is what the Church concocted and called Purgatory? It wouldn't.

Fortunately, however, the debate is close to being moot. Naturally, "the church that never changes" does not like to own up to the many doctrinal changes it has made over the years. Therefore, so it changes many of them without admitting that it has changed anything.

As it was with Limbo, which is now defunct, Purgatory is being quietly phased out, too. The reason, in both cases, is that the rank and file simply were not buying these Medieval conjectures anymore.
 
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Erik Nelson

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The most important thing to keep in mind when reading such replies as this one from Catholic Answers is that the explanation, the proof, is a series of rationalizations. That is to say that something may be suggested by a verse or passage in Scripture, or by a number of them, but Purgatory--a particular and very specific explanation that the Church created in the Late Middle Ages--is just one possible one.

It's like arguing that there must be a God because nothing is created by nothing, there must be a first cause, the stars testify to his existence, whatever...and then saying "So that proves that all things were created by the Great Turtle who will turn non-believers into Corn Flakes unless rabbits are sacrificed to him."

Yeh, there may be a reason for believing in a God, but that doesn't make this scenario about a God be true.

And that is exactly what the proofs of Purgatory amount to.

See the article, the link, where it says that there is Scriptural evidence that there will be some sort of purification after death. Why would that have to be the elaborate and complicated place or state of being that is what the Church concocted and called Purgatory? It wouldn't.

Fortunately, however, the debate is close to being moot. Naturally, "the church that never changes" does not like to own up to the many doctrinal changes it has made over the years. Therefore, so it changes many of them without admitting that it has changed anything.

As it was with Limbo, which is now defunct, Purgatory is being quietly phased out, too. The reason, in both cases, is that the rank and file simply were not buying these Medieval conjectures anymore.
Protestants have changed more ?

And you agree that "Purgatory" is a possible interpretation, consistent with Scripture? Such was evidently the understanding of the earliest Church, yes ?
 
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Albion

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And you agree that "Purgatory" is a possible interpretation, consistent with Scripture? Such was evidently the understanding of the earliest Church, yes ?
No, and I did not say that. What I said is that the so-called Scriptural evidence is about something so sketchy that to say it proves Purgatory, a specific entity, is like saying the existence of the wheel proves the existence of a Chevrolet.
 
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Erik Nelson

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No, and I did not say that. What I said is that the so-called Scriptural evidence is about something so sketchy that to say it proves Purgatory, a specific entity, is like saying the existence of the wheel proves the existence of a Chevrolet.
"That is to say that something may be suggested by a verse or passage in Scripture, or by a number of them, but Purgatory...is just one possible one"

Scripture does not dis-prove the Catholic & Orthodox beliefs ?
 
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Albion

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So is the mere theoretical possibility of something sufficient for you to believe it?

If so
, I will suggest now that the salvation of Mars' residents was also accomplished by Christ's sacrifice on the Cross and that the Book of Mormon is really genuine. :rolleyes:

Scripture does not dis-prove the Catholic & Orthodox beliefs

The Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The most important thing to keep in mind when reading such replies as this one from Catholic Answers is that the explanation, the proof, is a series of rationalizations. That is to say that something may be suggested by a verse or passage in Scripture, or by a number of them, but Purgatory--a particular and very specific explanation that the Church created in the Late Middle Ages--is just one possible one.
Every thing you said is valid, except that, other than the name they called it, it was not invented or created in the late Middle Ages (whatever that means...)
It's like arguing that there must be a God because nothing is created by nothing, there must be a first cause, the stars testify to his existence, whatever...and then saying "So that proves that all things were created by the Great Turtle who will turn non-believers into Corn Flakes unless rabbits are sacrificed to him."
Again, you're talking about the name we give to a concept, not the concept itself. Muslims have a very different concept of God.
Yeh, there may be a reason for believing in a God, but that doesn't make this scenario about a God be true.

And that is exactly what the proofs of Purgatory amount to.
The proofs are valid, whatever you call it.
See the article, the link, where it says that there is Scriptural evidence that there will be some sort of purification after death. Why would that have to be the elaborate and complicated place or state of being that is what the Church concocted and called Purgatory? It wouldn't.
They don't have to be. All it is is a place of purification. We don't really speculate how, or how long, although we used to say (though not doctrinally) that praying the rosary so many times would get you so many days off of your time in Purgatory. But outside of the universe, there is no concept of time.
Fortunately, however, the debate is close to being moot. Naturally, "the church that never changes" does not like to own up to the many doctrinal changes it has made over the years. Therefore, so it changes many of them without admitting that it has changed anything.
What doctrinal changes did they make?
As it was with Limbo, which is now defunct, Purgatory is being quietly phased out, too. The reason, in both cases, is that the rank and file simply were not buying these Medieval conjectures anymore.
Limbo was never a doctrine. It was a supposition about what happened to unbaptized children. Just like the Trinity, and the fact that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man were subject to just such suppositions.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Protestants have changed more ?

And you agree that "Purgatory" is a possible interpretation, consistent with Scripture? Such was evidently the understanding of the earliest Church, yes ?
Yes, and yes.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So is the mere theoretical possibility of something sufficient for you to believe it?

If so
, I will suggest now that the salvation of Mars' residents was also accomplished by Christ's sacrifice on the Cross and that the Book of Mormon is really genuine. :rolleyes:



The Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory.
Yeah, they do, except for the name. The concept of purification before entering heaven is an Orthodox belief.
 
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Albion

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Every thing you said is valid, except that, other than the name they called it, it was not invented or created in the late Middle Ages (whatever that means...)
Well, yes, "Purgatory" was.

Previously, there was some thought about purification or punishment short of hell, temporal punishment, and so on, but that was not anywhere near the package of who, what, when, how, and so on that was Purgatory when it was birthed. There is no 'sorta Purgatory' or 'kinds of Purgatories.' It is what the Church that invented it decided it was to be, all or nothing.

And none of that earlier speculation had been official like Purgatory, thusly defined, became. That was shortly before the Protestant Reformation came along. You remember that indulgences, which are not Purgatory but wouldn't be anything unless there were supposed to be a Purgatory, was the item that caused the start of the Reformation.
 
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Albion

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Yeah, they do, except for the name. The concept of purification before entering heaven is an Orthodox belief.
The concept of purification, yes. Purgatory, no.

Purgatory is a complex explanation of all sorts of factors that explain a number of facts ABOUT THAT punishment in the afterlife. You can no more take away part of the entity and still claim what's left is Purgatory than you can redesign the meaning of the Papacy to make it nice fellow who belongs to the church and lives in Rome or the Eucharist to make it any meal that features bread.

The Orthodox have concepts dealing with a transition from this life to the next, but they are not "Purgatory." However, I will let a member of one of those churhces explain further.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, yes, "Purgatory" was.
So, by your calculation, the Bible didn't exist until 315 or so when it was called the Bible. And the Trinity wasn't invented until the Council of Nicaea?
No, in actuality, the concept of purgatory was always a doctrine of the Church, and the more it became understood, the more was defined about it. Just like the doctrine of the Trinity.
Previously, there was some thought about purification or punishment short of hell, temporal punishment, and so on, but that was not anywhere near the package of who, what, when, how, and so on that was Purgatory when it was birthed. There is no 'sorta Purgatory' or 'kinds of Purgatories.' It is what the Church that invented it decided it was to be, all or nothing.
No, purgatory, or the concept, never was anything 'short of hell'. Purgatory has little to do with hell. It does have to do with temporal punishment and cleansing your soul in preparation for heaven. And no, there's no 'sorta purgatory' or 'kinds of purgatory'. It is, simply, that nobody is perfect, yet a merciful God wouldn't create beings who can only wind up in hell. So it's a place for those in friendship with God, yet still imperfect, become perfected.
And none of that earlier speculation had been official like Purgatory, thusly defined, became.
As you've previously demonstrated, you don't know when the concept began. It was a pre-Christian idea that the Reformation conveniently excised from their Bibles.
That was shortly before the Protestant Reformation came along. You remember that indulgences, which are not Purgatory but wouldn't be anything unless there were supposed to be a Purgatory, was the item that caused the start of the Reformation.
I will agree with you that, in the words of that woman in Congress, the Muslim from Minnesota, said. "Some people did some things. Which perverted what purgatory actually ever was. And indulgences are not what they became. The Church never declared that indulgences could be sold, but some leaders, bishops and such, did abuse the practice. As we see today, declarations can be misconstrued and perverted. And that's true, and those people are likely not in Purgatory or Heaven, they had a commission to shepherd their flocks and they led them astray.
But the doctrine of Purgatory, and the practice of Indulgences, which is remission of the temporal punishment for sins committed, already confessed, penance done and alms already given, properly understood, are correct. Jesus told us to pray, give alms to the poor and ask forgiveness of our sins in order to enter heaven.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The concept of purification, yes. Purgatory, no.

Purgatory is a complex explanation of all sorts of factors that explain a number of facts ABOUT THAT punishment in the afterlife. You can no more take away part of the entity and still claim what's left is Purgatory than you can redesign the meaning of the Papacy to make it nice fellow who belongs to the church and lives in Rome or the Eucharist to make it any meal that features bread.
No, it's not. We don't know what happens after we die, except what's been revealed to us. And how or what factors, or exactly how it's done, is not speculated on. There is an exact definition of what Purgatory is. “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect …” – CCC 1030-1031
And indulgences are in a different section 1471-1479.
X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."86

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."89

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.90

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
The Orthodox have concepts dealing with a transition from this life to the next, but they are not "Purgatory." However, I will let a member of one of those churhces explain further.
I don't speak 'Orthodox-ese' either, but from what I've spoke to them, it seems the same to me. They probably have the same issues as you do, where the law and the practice of the law are sometimes two different things.
 
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Albion

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So, by your calculation, the Bible didn't exist until 315 or so when it was called the Bible. And the Trinity wasn't invented until the Council of Nicaea?
That's not what I wrote, but I can hope that other readers will understand what I was saying.
 
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Root of Jesse

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That's not what I wrote, but I can hope that other readers will understand what I was saying.
What you're saying is that, just because they came up with a name for it on a certain date, that's when it was made doctrine. All I'm saying is that there was no Trinity until the Council came up with the doctrine. But the doctrine was believed before it was codified.
You know, actually, the Bible TOC was not codified until Trent, but there was a Bible long before that.
 
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