Psychology of Marraige Roles (Why Complentarianism Doesn't Work Based on Gender)

Dave-W

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It's not an issue of roles inalienably belonging to men or women. Failure to acknowledge that men and women are better at certain things because they are men or women puts society at a huge disadvantage.
I disagree. As has been noted, there is a LOT of overlap. Any seeming disadvantage can be eliminated by proper training.

The actual differences that should be recognized and exploited are individual. Even with the cultural biases in place there is a much larger difference from one man or one woman to another than there is between the averages of men and women.
 
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HereIStand

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I disagree. As has been noted, there is a LOT of overlap. Any seeming disadvantage can be eliminated by proper training.

The actual differences that should be recognized and exploited are individual. Even with the cultural biases in place there is a much larger difference from one man or one woman to another than there is between the averages of men and women.

Training can help, but can't eliminate disadvantages. Male and female Marines both undergo training (and both are presumably in peak conditioning), yet for PT men are asked to do pull-ups, while women are asked to do a flex-arm-hang. The disadvantage should be clear, but the manufactured consensus of gender-neutrality has won the day in the media.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Training can help, but can't eliminate disadvantages. Male and female Marines both undergo training (and both are presumably in peak conditioning), yet for PT men are asked to do pull-ups, while women are asked to do a flex-arm-hang. The disadvantage should be clear, but the manufactured consensus of gender-neutrality has won the day in the media.

Physical features are not what we are talking about, those are the result of physical sex, not psychological gender. Muscle mass in humans is a secondary sex characteristic.
 
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mkgal1

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It seems to me that complementarian ideas about marriage are a lot like complementarian ideas about FAITH--that both can easily be summed up by following a simple and predictable formula. I think it's appealing for people that don't like surprises (which....doesn't that include everyone?!) and would like the security of knowing they're going to have a "successful" marriage with "successful" children, and someday, "successful" grandchildren.

But.....as I've learned....life is NOT predictable and without surprises, and even if we (as individuals) follow these formulas....that doesn't mean we can do much to impose upon others to get them to follow along as well (and that's the only way these formulas "work"...is when each person does "their part"). There's no backup plan offered.

From what I've read---a lot of this doctrine came from decisions made in both the Catholic church and the Southern Baptist conference back in the early 90's. I'm of the opinion that the Catholic bishops did the best job at clarifying the theology behind the Ephesians passage.

USCCB.org said:
At the basis of all relationships in a family is our fundamental equality as persons created in God's image. The creation narratives in the Book of Genesis teach this fundamental truth: "both man and woman are human beings to an equal degree, both are created in God's image" (On the Dignity and Vocation of Women, no. 6).

And St. Paul describes the "new creation" made possible in Christ:

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:27-28).Marriage is the partnership of a man and woman equal in dignity and value. This does not imply sameness in roles or expectations. There are important physical and psychological traits which result in differing skills and perspectives. Nor does the equality of persons mean that two spouses will have identical gifts or character or roles.

Rather, a couple who accepts their equality as sons and daughters in the Lord will honor and cherish one another. They will respect and value each other's gifts and uniqueness. They will "be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ" (Eph 5:21).

Our competitive culture tends to promote aggressiveness and struggles for power. These are a common part of life, especially in the workplace. It is all too easy for couples to bring an unhealthy competitive spirit to their relationship. The Gospel demands that all of us critically examine such attitudes. Marriage must never become a struggle for control.

For, unlike other relationships, marriage is a vowed covenant with unique dimensions. In. this partnership, mutual submission—not dominance by either partner—is the key to genuine joy. Our attitude should be the same as Jesus "[w]ho, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself . . ." (Phil 2:6-7).

True equality, understood as mutuality, is not measuring out tasks (who prepares the meals, who supervises homework, and so forth) or maintaining an orderly schedule. It thrives at a much deeper level where the power of the Spirit resides. Here, the grace of the vowed life not only makes the shedding of willfulness possible, but also leads to a joyful willingness.

Mutuality is really about sharing power and exercising responsibility for a purpose larger than ourselves.
How household duties are distributed should follow from understanding what it takes to build a life together, as well as the individual skills and interests you bring to your common life.

Our experience as pastors shows us that genuine marital intimacy and true friendship are unlikely without mutuality. One spouse alone is not the keeper of love's flame. Both of you are co-creators of your relationship. Nowhere is this more vividly portrayed than in your decisions about having children. The Church promotes natural family planning for many reasons, among which are that "it favors attention for one's partner, helps both parties to drive out selfishness, the enemy of true love, and deepens their sense of responsibility" (On Human Life, no. 21).

Agreeing that you are equal might be easier than changing your behavior or accepting joint responsibility for your relationship. It takes hard work to really understand another's feelings or to practice shared decision making on important matters.

Sharing feelings and a willingness to be vulnerable can be difficult, particularly for those of us raised in the "strong and silent" tradition. Men in all walks of life seem to have been influenced by this unwritten norm.

Moreover, some women have learned to fear conflict and may remain passive in the face of it. Women who accept their own self-worth are more able to express their beliefs, ideas, and feelings, even such painful ones as anger.

Flexible roles may appear difficult if your families of origin did not model them. Each family (couple) must decide what is best for them in a spirit of respect and mutuality. Especially when both spouses are employed, household duties need to be shared.~Follow the Way oF Love
 
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archer75

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I've been interested in some of the posts on this thread, but I still have yet to see anything that prescribes things at the level of detail that I'd love to see. And I have yet to see this from any source on marriage, from anyone, with any or no understanding of Scripture or Tradition! I think it must be me.
 
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mkgal1

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And I have yet to see this from any source on marriage, from anyone, with any or no understanding of Scripture or Tradition! I think it must be me.
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. You've not seen complementarian literature that describes specific roles for men and women? Is that what you mean?
 
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archer75

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I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. You've not seen complementarian literature that describes specific roles for men and women? Is that what you mean?
Not quite. I've seen stuff that describes roles and prescribes roles. But I've yet to see any stuff about "how to do well in your marriage" that goes beyond "here's an abstract notion that's not helpful" or "here's how to stop screaming at your wife and making her miserable."
I admit, it may be just me.
 
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mkgal1

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Not quite. I've seen stuff that describes roles and prescribes roles. But I've yet to see any stuff about "how to do well in your marriage" that goes beyond "here's an abstract notion that's not helpful" or "here's how to stop screaming at your wife and making her miserable."
I admit, it may be just me.
Ah....I think I know just what you're saying. I don't think you're alone on this at all. That's my impression as well, and I think it's because it's all based on platitudes and not genuine advice (when it comes to this brand of marriage help--the complementarian "follow this pattern" variety). It's short-comings are obvious when it meets real life.
 
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Paidiske

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Not quite. I've seen stuff that describes roles and prescribes roles. But I've yet to see any stuff about "how to do well in your marriage" that goes beyond "here's an abstract notion that's not helpful" or "here's how to stop screaming at your wife and making her miserable."
I admit, it may be just me.

Isn't the problem here, though, that every marriage is different? The nitty-gritty of how to do marriage well will look very different for the couple with ten children vs. the couple who've been doing IVF for ten years, desperately hoping for a single child; or couples in different countries/cultures; or with very different job roles (fly-in/fly-out for one spouse is very different from a spouse working from home) and so on.

So I think giving abstract notions for people to reflect on in their own circumstances is the only way it can really work, and then each person or couple can unpack that, with their minister/community of faith to resource their thinking.

Do you have specific things you're trying to work out, hengest?
 
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archer75

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Isn't the problem here, though, that every marriage is different? The nitty-gritty of how to do marriage well will look very different for the couple with ten children vs. the couple who've been doing IVF for ten years, desperately hoping for a single child; or couples in different countries/cultures; or with very different job roles (fly-in/fly-out for one spouse is very different from a spouse working from home) and so on.

So I think giving abstract notions for people to reflect on in their own circumstances is the only way it can really work, and then each person or couple can unpack that, with their minister/community of faith to resource their thinking.

Do you have specific things you're trying to work out, hengest?
That's all fair. What bugs me that (sometimes) people push their pet theory as the all-healing salve, and when you say "the terms don't quite seem to fit" or "I've done all that for years and am not getting what you say is the inevitable result", then there's no response.

Yes, I'm working on things and know I sound like a whiner! :)
 
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bekkilyn

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That's all fair. What bugs me that (sometimes) people push their pet theory as the all-healing salve, and when you say "the terms don't quite seem to fit" or "I've done all that for years and am not getting what you say is the inevitable result", then there's no response.

Yes, I'm working on things and know I sound like a whiner! :)

I find it better to work through things at the risk of sounding like a whiner (though you don't in this case) than to keep those things perpetually bottled up and thus never get them resolved.
 
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Dave-W

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But I've yet to see any stuff about "how to do well in your marriage" that goes beyond "here's an abstract notion that's not helpful" or "here's how to stop screaming at your wife and making her miserable."
Yeah - that stuff is a hard thing to answer.

Kinda like the guy who walks along the beach and stumbles across Aladdin's lamp. The genie pops out looking tired and very annoyed; and says "Look, I am tired of answering three wishes all day. You only get one so make it a good one. And not too hard."
So the guy says "I would like a bridge built from here in LA all the way to Hawaii. "
"Too hard. WAYYY too hard." said the genie, shaking his head.
" um - ok. In that case, I want to understand my wife, so I am not making her cry all the time."
The genie comes back "How many lanes did you want on that bridge; 2, 4, or 6?"
 
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mkgal1

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I hope you all think this is relevant to this thread. I was just reminded of this video--where Mary Kassian admits that complementarian theology rarely "works" properly (as the interviewer--Jennie Allen asked about around 3:25 minutes in). Mary never disputed the idea that it "steals something" from women:
 
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bekkilyn

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The discussion in that video really made me cringe because I couldn't help thinking how harmful (and patronizing) this whole "complementarian theology" seems to be. I find myself looking upon events such as women's conferences, books, and other materials and programs targeted towards women with great suspicion because I wonder if the agenda is more complementarian propaganda. We have two women here trying to figure out how not to feel horrible about this whole screwy system that they believe that God has set up, even after admitting that it just doesn't work.
 
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mkgal1

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We have two women here trying to figure out how not to feel horrible about this whole screwy system that they believe that God has set up, even after admitting that it just doesn't work.
Exactly! You just summed up very accurately and concisely what the whole problem is. And what does that say about God--that they believe He set up this whole system?

Also--maybe I'm presuming too much, but Jennie Allen's stare looks as if she's holding in a LOT of pain. My heart breaks for her.
 
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mkgal1

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Another thought: Mary Kassian seemed to emphasize (as most of this belief) the "responsibility on his shoulders"....but, in reality, the burden seems to fall more often on the women.

For another example....like this from Kirk Cameron (can you see the sub text there?):
Kirk Cameron urges wives to be submissive and 'follow their husband's lead' | Daily Mail Online

Linked Article said:
'Wives are to honor and respect and follow their husband's lead, not to tell their husband how he ought to be a better husband,' Cameron, 45, said in an interview with the Christian Post.

'When each person gets their part right, regardless of how their spouse is treating them, there is hope for real change in their marriage.'
 
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Paidiske

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At least he encourages men to do the dishes "one night." :rolleyes:

I agree that people often say the men's role in that kind of approach is much harder, but I've never been able to figure out how. She has to obey whatever he says, and he gets to make up his own mind what he will and won't do... surely that's only harder if making decisions is paralysingly hard? And if it is, are you really in a healthy place as an adult?

(Am I being too harsh? But that's how it seems to me).
 
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archer75

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At least he encourages men to do the dishes "one night." :rolleyes:

I agree that people often say the men's role in that kind of approach is much harder, but I've never been able to figure out how. She has to obey whatever he says, and he gets to make up his own mind what he will and won't do... surely that's only harder if making decisions is paralysingly hard? And if it is, are you really in a healthy place as an adult?

(Am I being too harsh? But that's how it seems to me).
I don't know either, but I'm guessing it's from some notion that actually leading is harder than following.

But that isn't really what's described here, if my sense is right. It seems like it's a sex-based dictatorship masquerading as a relationship in which one party naturally has more power and therefore greater responsibility.
 
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Yes and no, based on the recent book Sex Scandal: The Drive to Abolish Male and Female by Ashley McGuire. There is room for flexibility based on circumstances and personalities within a marriage. However, men and women react differently at home and at work because they are different. Stress is created in a marriage when a woman involuntary works (or works more than she wants to) outside the home. Likewise, stress can occur for a man who is unable to work (or works less than he wants to) outside the home. Also, at home and at work, men are more risk-oriented than women.
What about the single moms who *have*to take the *lead* because their husband,boyfriend, baby daddy refuses to step to the plate?There are women who work because they don't have a choice. It's either that or welfare and some women don't want to fall into that trap.
 
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